This is a Reboot not a Remake

[リアンダ]

I just watched another interview with a journalist from the German Gamestar magazine discussing the remake. There they presented a ton of new video footage, talked about hiring new voice actors, adding additional content, etc.

After what I've seen and heard I have now come to the conclusion that this is Game is a reboot and not a remake. The same artistic liberty that was taken when re-imagining creatures seems to permeate the entire game. Just look at locations like the troll canyon if you don't know what I mean. https://www.gamestar.de/videos/grafikvergleich-das-gothic-remake-verleiht-legendaeren-orte-des-minentals-neuen-glanz,133763.html

Anyway, Alkimia obviously can't help themselves making this game their own rather than focussing on a faithful graphical update à la Diablo Resurrected. They couldn't when working on the playable teaser and they still can't now.

This isn't necessarily bad or anything but I would recommend old school fans to brace for impact. There's a good chance that, beyond surface level similartities, you'll be playing an entirely new game. Make of that what you will.

[Dramatic_Effect]

Well, they did say they went a little more extreme and less faithful to the original in the teaser because they wanted a stronger reaction, so I don't think judging them by the teaser is all that fair.

I see no reason not to believe them on that front. More and stronger feedback, and probably to send some signals to the publisher.

What remake/reboot(whatever you want to cal it) dropped a teaser before development properly started?
They made a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ teaser, everyone lost their minds, big youtubers made hour-long videos on the topic, analysing every tiny bit of content there was so Alkimia could point at all that and say to the publisher "Look at all the feedback we got, there's money to be made here!" and "People strongly feel they want it faithful, best you let us do our thing and don't interfere with development too much, we got this"

[リアンダ]

Origineel geplaatst door Dramatic_Effect:

Well, they did say they went a little more extreme and less faithful to the original in the teaser because they wanted a stronger reaction, so I don't think judging them by the teaser is all that fair. I see no reason not to believe them on that front. More and stronger feedback, and probably to send some signals to the publisher.

If what you're saying is true it would have made more sense for one part of the demo to stick very closely and for the other to deviate strongly from the original with to intend to ask customers which of the two versions they prefer. In such a scenario one would expect pptions to toggle between the original's combat and new combat, talk to a character who is basically a copy of an OG character and another who is brand new to the franchise, that sort of thing. But that's not what Alikimia did. They changed pretty much everything you could change about the game, including it's core pillars. So I call BS on that. In my books Alkimia still needs to prove they actually undeerstand what Gothic is all about. My hopes lie solely on the Archolos devs who joined Alkimia at some point during developmenet.

Origineel geplaatst door Dramatic_Effect:

What remake/reboot(whatever you want to cal it) dropped a teaser before development properly started?

What this unusual method of collecting customer feedback shows is that Alkimia realized that their product was going in the wrong direction and desperately needed the guidance of the customers. Competent studios don't need pre-alpha public testing, especially not when making a remake. You don't need public testung to understand that the nameless hero fighting a horde of snappers in the first 5 minutes of the game is not a good thign because it completely destroys the "from zero to hero" power progression PB games are famous for.

Origineel geplaatst door Dramatic_Effect:

They made a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ teaser, everyone lost their minds, big youtubers made hour-long videos on the topic, analysing every tiny bit of content there was so Alkimia could point at all that and say to the publisher "Look at all the feedback we got, there's money to be made here!" and "People strongly feel they want it faithful, best you let us do our thing and don't interfere with development too much, we got this"

It was actually THQ who asked them to release the teaser because they felt that the game was too faar removed from the original. I know this because I worked for THQ as a freelance sculptor and met a lot of their head honchos in their office in Vienna. What I still don't understand though is why they gave Alkimia a second chance after royally messing up the playable teaser.

So far I have seen nothing that has really impressed me. The world looks like standard high fantasy now instead of the original which used to be unique due to how grounded it felt. The creatures and characters barely resemble the original models. Combat looks janky af. Don't get me wrong, As a longtime gothic fan I willd efinitely give the game a try. but man I wished they had fired everyone from Alkimia and just given the project to the Archolos devs who have already shown us that they know exactly what Gothic is all about.

[MegalomaniacNG]

Origineel geplaatst door リアンダ:

Origineel geplaatst door Dramatic_Effect:

Well, they did say they went a little more extreme and less faithful to the original in the teaser because they wanted a stronger reaction, so I don't think judging them by the teaser is all that fair. I see no reason not to believe them on that front. More and stronger feedback, and probably to send some signals to the publisher.

If what you're saying is true it would have made more sense for one part of the demo to stick very closely and for the other to deviate strongly from the original with to intend to ask customers which of the two versions they prefer. In such a scenario one would expect pptions to toggle between the original's combat and new combat, talk to a character who is basically a copy of an OG character and another who is brand new to the franchise, that sort of thing. But that's not what Alikimia did. They changed pretty much everything you could change about the game, including it's core pillars. So I call BS on that. In my books Alkimia still needs to prove they actually undeerstand what Gothic is all about. My hopes lie solely on the Archolos devs who joined Alkimia at some point during developmenet.

Origineel geplaatst door Dramatic_Effect:

What remake/reboot(whatever you want to cal it) dropped a teaser before development properly started?

What this unusual method of collecting customer feedback shows is that Alkimia realized that their product was going in the wrong direction and desperately needed the guidance of the customers. Competent studios don't need pre-alpha public testing, especially not when making a remake. You don't need public testung to understand that the nameless hero fighting a horde of snappers in the first 5 minutes of the game is not a good thign because it completely destroys the "from zero to hero" power progression PB games are famous for.

Origineel geplaatst door Dramatic_Effect:

They made a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ teaser, everyone lost their minds, big youtubers made hour-long videos on the topic, analysing every tiny bit of content there was so Alkimia could point at all that and say to the publisher "Look at all the feedback we got, there's money to be made here!" and "People strongly feel they want it faithful, best you let us do our thing and don't interfere with development too much, we got this"

It was actually THQ who asked them to release the teaser because they felt that the game was too faar removed from the original. I know this because I worked for THQ as a freelance sculptor and met a lot of their head honchos in their office in Vienna. What I still don't understand though is why they gave Alkimia a second chance after royally messing up the playable teaser.

So far I have seen nothing that has really impressed me. The world looks like standard high fantasy now instead of the original which used to be unique due to how grounded it felt. The creatures and characters barely resemble the original models. Combat looks janky af. Don't get me wrong, As a longtime gothic fan I willd efinitely give the game a try. but man I wished they had fired everyone from Alkimia and just given the project to the Archolos devs who have already shown us that they know exactly what Gothic is all about.

I dont know with who you worked with and how but a lot of of what you say is either incomplete or completely wrong.
First of all playable teaser wasnt done with Alkimia. It was just 5 people where 4 also joined Alkimia. The initial goal of the playable teaser was to show how visuals and combat of a present day RPG in a medieval setting could look like and we quickly just went with trying to be as close as possible to Gothic. There were a few elements that we werent sure about what the community would prefer and so about 9 months before release the idea was born to release it to the public. The idea came from THQN but not because they felt that some things were off but because I personally voiced my concerns over certain elements we were at crossroads with and I flagged risks - none of it had to do with stuff that the playable teaser got criticized for as none of the actual gameplay and content was there - not even on paper. In order to not just release a graphic demo we decided to quickly put together a complete gameplay experience. With this we went to the extreme on purpose. It was never what we would have envisioned as Gothic but we wanted to go with it regardless in order to get strong and detailed reactions. Maybe it would have been better to show a range and therefore get different reactions but first of all we didnt have time for anything more than what we did (our goal was actually to get as quick as possible beyond that stage and start with working on the real Remake) and secondly it wouldnt have helped as it would have diluted reactions.

I agree that doing such a public playtest is unusual. Normally this is done via internal focus group tests. However this way we got very detailed and passionate responses that I doubt we would have gotten in any similar form (many thanks to everyone who filled out the survey back then).

I agree on that we have to proof that we understood Gothic. We try to convey with everything we talk and show that we understood whats core to the Gothic experience but the final verdict can only be done with the final game.


One thing I wanted to say about the original topic:
Yes, the idea was never just do a graphic update. The idea and vision was to do a full Gothic game with all the features it is known and loved for but as a modern game. Thats why we went with a modern and realistic art style and not tried to make HD version of the old graphic style. Places like the troll canyon are really the exception. The whole approach to the game world was to rebuild it, make it look great by todays standards and rather make natural extensions where the original felt incomplete or didnt live up to its expectations.

[リアンダ]

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

I dont know with who you worked with and how but a lot of of what you say is either incomplete or completely wrong.
First of all playable teaser wasnt done with Alkimia. It was just 5 people where 4 also joined Alkimia. The initial goal of the playable teaser was to show how visuals and combat of a present day RPG in a medieval setting could look like and we quickly just went with trying to be as close as possible to Gothic. There were a few elements that we werent sure about what the community would prefer and so about 9 months before release the idea was born to release it to the public. The idea came from THQN but not because they felt that some things were off but because I personally voiced my concerns over certain elements we were at crossroads with and I flagged risks -

How does any of what you said here deviate from what I mentioned I had heard over at the THQ headquarters. The only that's new info to me is that the playable teaser wasn't originally intended to be a Gothic remake. This definitely explains why the playable teaser barely resembles Gothic.

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

none of it had to do with stuff that the playable teaser got criticized for as none of the actual gameplay and content was there - not even on paper.

Can you be more specific about that? Because I'm having a hard time recalling which elements of the playable teaser, in the context of serving as a Gothic remake, were well received.

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

In order to not just release a graphic demo we decided to quickly put together a complete gameplay experience. With this we went to the extreme on purpose. It was never what we would have envisioned as Gothic but we wanted to go with it regardless in order to get strong and detailed reactions. Maybe it would have been better to show a range and therefore get different reactions but first of all we didnt have time for anything more than what we did (our goal was actually to get as quick as possible beyond that stage and start with working on the real Remake) and secondly it wouldnt have helped as it would have diluted reactions.

So you made a game you yourself didn't consider a proper Gothic only to find out that fans didn't consider it a proper gothic game either? Not as big surprise, isn't it`?

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

I agree that doing such a public playtest is unusual. Normally this is done via internal focus group tests. However this way we got very detailed and passionate responses that I doubt we would have gotten in any similar form (many thanks to everyone who filled out the survey back then).

When I learned about the playable teaser I worked as a subconrtactor on Elex 2. Not sure iif you ever approached Björn Pankratz and his team but that may have been cheaper than polishing and entire vertical slice for public consumption. But then again Piranha Bytes went belly up last year so it's probably better you're doing your own thing.

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

I agree on that we have to proof that we understood Gothic. We try to convey with everything we talk and show that we understood whats core to the Gothic experience but the final verdict can only be done with the final game.

I am much more at ease knowing your playable teaser wasn't created as a gtohic remake in the first place. It's much better not to try and fail than to try and fail, if that makes sense. Visually speaking you guys deviate too much from the original for my taste but as a visual artist that's what I'm lazer focussed on so I'm probably not representative of your average customer in that regard. But please, don't mess up the power progression, the immersive and believeable world and the "Ruhrpott Charme" of the original.

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

One thing I wanted to say about the original topic:
Yes, the idea was never just do a graphic update. The idea and vision was to do a full Gothic game with all the features it is known and loved for but as a modern game. Thats why we went with a modern and realistic art style and not tried to make HD version of the old graphic style. Places like the troll canyon are really the exception. The whole approach to the game world was to rebuild it, make it look great by todays standards and rather make natural extensions where the original felt incomplete or didnt live up to its expectations.

Thank you for your insight on the topic. Personally I disagree. I like remakes like Ninja Gaiden 2 Black or Destroy all Humans: Reprobed (which I also worked on under the THQ banner). In other words, remakes that stay clsoe to the orignal and only update mechanics and visuals that haven't aged well. But I am open to your interpretation of the game. I just thing "remake" is a misnomer that might unecessarily set the wrong expectations. Either way, thank you for your time and have a nice weekend.

[MegalomaniacNG]

I can only reply that you twisted a lot of my statements.

Nobody said that the general conclusion of the Playable Teaser reaction was surprising. A lot of the detailed feedback was very helpful though and we got a clear answer that players would love to have a Remake and not just care for say a sequel.

Piranha Bytes had nothing to do with the playable teaser or the remake. They wanted to fully focus on ELEX. We all know how Gothic fans perceive ELEX2 especially.

Progression, immersion, believable world and ruhrpott charme are really some of the core elements that we want to preserve. We always said that and thats our mission.

If its only about visuals then look at Gothic 3. It had nothing to do with G1/G2 visuals. The G1/G2 visuals were a thing of its time and while they have their charme even back then they werent considered particularly good. We considered Gothic 1-3 as a whole and therefore set sail for a realistic look.

[リアンダ]

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

I can only reply that you twisted a lot of my statements.

Nobody said that the general conclusion of the Playable Teaser reaction was surprising. A lot of the detailed feedback was very helpful though and we got a clear answer that players would love to have a Remake and not just care for say a sequel.

There would have probably been easier ways for you to figure that out but you do you.

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

Piranha Bytes had nothing to do with the playable teaser or the remake. They wanted to fully focus on ELEX. We all know how Gothic fans perceive ELEX2 especially.

True but at then end of the day, there's more Gothic in Elex 2 than there was Gothic in your playable teaser.

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

Progression, immersion, believable world and ruhrpott charme are really some of the core elements that we want to preserve. We always said that and thats our mission.

Glad to hear that.

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

If its only about visuals then look at Gothic 3. It had nothing to do with G1/G2 visuals. The G1/G2 visuals were a thing of its time and while they have their charme even back then they werent considered particularly good. We considered Gothic 1-3 as a whole and therefore set sail for a realistic look.

Nobody, and I mean nobody prefers Gothic 3's artdirection over the artdirection of part 1-2. That being said there is a balance between modernizing and completely doing your own thing. I can garuantee you if you did a poll asking fans wheter or not people prefer your scavenger or this one https://imgur.com/a/bE2F5Ym there would be a pretty clear winner. But who knows, maybe your bog-standard, high fantasy artdirection will make this game more approacheable to a larger audience.

[Armin Tamzarian]

Origineel geplaatst door リアンダ:

I can garuantee you if you did a poll asking fans wheter or not people prefer your scavenger or this one https://imgur.com/a/bE2F5Ym there would be a pretty clear winner. But who knows, maybe your bog-standard, high fantasy artdirection will make this game more approacheable to a larger audience.

I agree with the clear winner comment. The new is better than the old.

[Armin Tamzarian]

In all honesty, I disagree with most of what you have said but I respect that you are making an authentic argument for your opinion rather than behaving like most of the Steam Forum Sewage we see nowadays.

[Bill_Galactic_Hero]

When the developer thinks that Gothic 3 is a whole with the first two parts, then you know that all this is spitting in the wind.

Edit:
There is one game that shares a part of the soul with real Gothic games and that is Risen 1.

[fracs]

Origineel geplaatst door Hekura:

When the developer thinks that Gothic 3 is a whole with the first two parts, then you know that all this is spitting in the wind.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=396842486

[リアンダ]

Origineel geplaatst door Armin Tamzarian:

In all honesty, I disagree with most of what you have said but I respect that you are making an authentic argument for your opinion rather than behaving like most of the Steam Forum Sewage we see nowadays.

It's okay to disagree. Art is very subjective.

[リアンダ]

Origineel geplaatst door Hekura:

When the developer thinks that Gothic 3 is a whole with the first two parts, then you know that all this is spitting in the wind.

Edit:
There is one game that shares a part of the soul with real Gothic games and that is Risen 1.

I just hope they rewrite the entirety of Gothic 3 at this point.

[HeyJoe-HUN-(SNAKE)PCRPGCommunity]

Another pointless post for clown awards, meh. What you just described is the pure definition of a REMAKE.

THIS. IS. NOT. A. REMASTER. Period.:)

[HeyJoe-HUN-(SNAKE)PCRPGCommunity]

Origineel geplaatst door MegalomaniacNG:

Origineel geplaatst door リアンダ:

If what you're saying is true it would have made more sense for one part of the demo to stick very closely and for the other to deviate strongly from the original with to intend to ask customers which of the two versions they prefer. In such a scenario one would expect pptions to toggle between the original's combat and new combat, talk to a character who is basically a copy of an OG character and another who is brand new to the franchise, that sort of thing. But that's not what Alikimia did. They changed pretty much everything you could change about the game, including it's core pillars. So I call BS on that. In my books Alkimia still needs to prove they actually undeerstand what Gothic is all about. My hopes lie solely on the Archolos devs who joined Alkimia at some point during developmenet.

What this unusual method of collecting customer feedback shows is that Alkimia realized that their product was going in the wrong direction and desperately needed the guidance of the customers. Competent studios don't need pre-alpha public testing, especially not when making a remake. You don't need public testung to understand that the nameless hero fighting a horde of snappers in the first 5 minutes of the game is not a good thign because it completely destroys the "from zero to hero" power progression PB games are famous for.


It was actually THQ who asked them to release the teaser because they felt that the game was too faar removed from the original. I know this because I worked for THQ as a freelance sculptor and met a lot of their head honchos in their office in Vienna. What I still don't understand though is why they gave Alkimia a second chance after royally messing up the playable teaser.

So far I have seen nothing that has really impressed me. The world looks like standard high fantasy now instead of the original which used to be unique due to how grounded it felt. The creatures and characters barely resemble the original models. Combat looks janky af. Don't get me wrong, As a longtime gothic fan I willd efinitely give the game a try. but man I wished they had fired everyone from Alkimia and just given the project to the Archolos devs who have already shown us that they know exactly what Gothic is all about.

I dont know with who you worked with and how but a lot of of what you say is either incomplete or completely wrong.
First of all playable teaser wasnt done with Alkimia. It was just 5 people where 4 also joined Alkimia. The initial goal of the playable teaser was to show how visuals and combat of a present day RPG in a medieval setting could look like and we quickly just went with trying to be as close as possible to Gothic. There were a few elements that we werent sure about what the community would prefer and so about 9 months before release the idea was born to release it to the public. The idea came from THQN but not because they felt that some things were off but because I personally voiced my concerns over certain elements we were at crossroads with and I flagged risks - none of it had to do with stuff that the playable teaser got criticized for as none of the actual gameplay and content was there - not even on paper. In order to not just release a graphic demo we decided to quickly put together a complete gameplay experience. With this we went to the extreme on purpose. It was never what we would have envisioned as Gothic but we wanted to go with it regardless in order to get strong and detailed reactions. Maybe it would have been better to show a range and therefore get different reactions but first of all we didnt have time for anything more than what we did (our goal was actually to get as quick as possible beyond that stage and start with working on the real Remake) and secondly it wouldnt have helped as it would have diluted reactions.

I agree that doing such a public playtest is unusual. Normally this is done via internal focus group tests. However this way we got very detailed and passionate responses that I doubt we would have gotten in any similar form (many thanks to everyone who filled out the survey back then).

I agree on that we have to proof that we understood Gothic. We try to convey with everything we talk and show that we understood whats core to the Gothic experience but the final verdict can only be done with the final game.


One thing I wanted to say about the original topic:
Yes, the idea was never just do a graphic update. The idea and vision was to do a full Gothic game with all the features it is known and loved for but as a modern game. Thats why we went with a modern and realistic art style and not tried to make HD version of the old graphic style. Places like the troll canyon are really the exception. The whole approach to the game world was to rebuild it, make it look great by todays standards and rather make natural extensions where the original felt incomplete or didnt live up to its expectations.

Can't wait for the behind the scenes shorts (Making of mini series) on YouTube, yay! :)

[リアンダ]

Origineel geplaatst door HeyJoe-HUN-(SNAKE)PCRPGCommunity:

Another pointless post for clown awards, meh. What you just described is the pure definition of a REMAKE.

THIS. IS. NOT. A. REMASTER. Period.:)

It isn't. i already fleshed out the difference of remaster/remake/reboot earlier in the thread; I'm not gonna do it again.