This is a Reboot not a Remake

[リアンダ]

I just watched another interview with a journalist from the German Gamestar magazine discussing the remake. There they presented a ton of new video footage, talked about hiring new voice actors, adding additional content, etc.

After what I've seen and heard I have now come to the conclusion that this is Game is a reboot and not a remake. The same artistic liberty that was taken when re-imagining creatures seems to permeate the entire game. Just look at locations like the troll canyon if you don't know what I mean. https://www.gamestar.de/videos/grafikvergleich-das-gothic-remake-verleiht-legendaeren-orte-des-minentals-neuen-glanz,133763.html

Anyway, Alkimia obviously can't help themselves making this game their own rather than focussing on a faithful graphical update à la Diablo Resurrected. They couldn't when working on the playable teaser and they still can't now.

This isn't necessarily bad or anything but I would recommend old school fans to brace for impact. There's a good chance that, beyond surface level similartities, you'll be playing an entirely new game. Make of that what you will.

[kestar]

I think you are confusing some terms. More accurate to say “this is a remake and not a remaster”. By your description you were expecting a remaster (only graphical update, all else stays the same), whereas they are going for a remake (reimagining of several aspects of the game).

I disagree with your take. I am happy they are taking this path, with the only exception that I wish creature art direction stayed closer to the original designs which had character - goblins, orcs, demons now look too generic fantasy for my taste. But overall, I really like what I see. I want this game to evolve, become bigger, better, overcome the technical limitations from 20 years ago.

If you are so stuck on the original game, maybe just go and replay the original game with a retexture mod and DX11 reshader?

[fracs]

Originally posted by リアンダ:

Anyway, Alkimia obviously can't help themselves making this game their own rather than focussing on a faithful graphical update à la Diablo Resurrected.

It was obvious right from the start when playable teaser was released years ago what their goal was,altough nobody asked fot it. The only question i have now is will the end product has anything in common with the original game beside character/town names .

[リアンダ]

Originally posted by kestar:

I think you are confusing some terms. More accurate to say “this is a remake and not a remaster”. By your description you were expecting a remaster (only graphical update, all else stays the same), whereas they are going for a remake (reimagining of several aspects of the game).

Tnat's not accurate. A remaster takes extisting assets and scripts improves what's already there via texture upscaling, modern light system, upscaled resolution, custom keybindings, compatibiility with modern hardware, etc. That sort of thing is a remaster.

A remake rebuilds the game from the ground up with new assets and code while trying to stick as close to the original as possible. Great examples of this would be Diablo Resurrected, Crash Bandicoot N'Sane trilogy or Destroy all Humans: Reprobed which are all build from the ground up with completely new models, animations and level geometry but stick so close to the original that speedruners have been able to seemlessly switch from the orignal over to these remakes.

And finally there's the reboot. In this case you reimagine the game sticking only losely to the originals level design, combat/movement, artidrection and story. The Gothic "Remake" clearly falls in that category.

Originally posted by kestar:

If you are so stuck on the original game, maybe just go and replay the original game with a retexture mod and DX11 reshader?

I replayed the Unreal Engine 5 fan remaster of the original twice in the last month alone. I will also play Archolos once it releases the next patch. These games don't go anywhere which is great. Because the Gothic "Remake" looks more like it's own thing than a replacement of the original like a true remake should be.

[リアンダ]

Originally posted by fracs:

Originally posted by リアンダ:

Anyway, Alkimia obviously can't help themselves making this game their own rather than focussing on a faithful graphical update à la Diablo Resurrected.

It was obvious right from the start when playable teaser was released years ago what their goal was,altough nobody asked fot it. The only question i have now is will the end product has anything in common with the original game beside character/town names .

I feel like the music, names and overall plotline will stick somewhat close to the original. Everything else will vary from relatively similar to completely unrecognizeable.

I'm fine with that as long as the game itself is good and manages to deliver an athmospheric and immersive world that feels alive. But I'm prepared to not feel the same sort of nostaligia I feel when booting up a game like say the Re: 4 remake.

[kestar]

What if by taking larger liberties the Gothic Remaster actually ends up being a better game with a wider audience? Not every single design decision in the original game was a good one.

[fracs]

Originally posted by kestar:

wider audience?

didnt care about gothic franchize before and will forget about this remake even faster since there will be no character creation, quest markers and other "quality of life" features that force player to use brainpower.

[Dramatic_Effect]

Originally posted by kestar:

What if by taking larger liberties the Gothic Remaster actually ends up being a better game with a wider audience? Not every single design decision in the original game was a good one.

Forget the decisions, just the development hell itself the game went through already makes Gothic a lot worse than it could have been. Crunch, cut content everywhere, bugs.
There is a talk I think Mike Hoge once held about it, and he mentions that ~80% of the content, as in quest lines, dialogue and the lot were added in the last 4 months of development. That would raise so many red flags today, and the only thing saving it from being a ♥♥♥♥ game is that it's so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ atmospheric, amazing, and groundbreaking in everything that does exist.

I know. It's only not ♥♥♥♥ because it's good. I'll recieve the noble prize later.

My point is that for such a development hell game, a remake only makes sense. Beyond fixing compatibility issues and bugs, remasters are pointless cash grabs anyway. Just play the original.

I also just realized I'm replying to the wrong guy since I essentially just agreed with you. Whatever.

[kestar]

Originally posted by fracs:

Originally posted by kestar:

wider audience?

didnt care about gothic franchize before and will forget about this remake even faster since there will be no character creation, quest markers and other "quality of life" features that force player to use brainpower.

Not true. Elden Ring was widely popular, despite having none of the quality of life features found in most RPGs (no markers, no directions, no quest log).

The only reason why the vast public like Skyrim or Assassin's Creed clones is because this is 90% of what RPG games on the marked consist in. This is the only thing they have known, the only thing they have seen, but it doesn't mean this cannot change. Once they see something immersive, atmospheric, they might grow to appreciate it.

For Gothic Remake to really succeed it needs to nail down the big weaknesses of the original: 1) clunky controls and 2) combat system. Yeah yeah I know, the combat system in the OG was fun and "once you learn it, it's great", but I bet you none of us found it enjoyable when we first played the OG game - we just put up with it and eventually got used to it because at the time video games were not that evolved to begin with. But nowadays, it needs to be fun and feel good from the start. If the devs are smart, this can be achieved even without giving the player all the abilities and fancy moves right from the beginning.

[リアンダ]

Originally posted by kestar:

What if by taking larger liberties the Gothic Remaster actually ends up being a better game with a wider audience? Not every single design decision in the original game was a good one.

I agree. I've plaid the original at least 30 times over the years so I've probably seen everything there is to see in this game. As a result I don't mind changes that much, especially in regards to outdated combat mechanics or the less than stellar final acts of the game.

But what I don't understand is why they felt the need to stray so far from the original even in the areas that did work. Why would you turn the troll canyon into a fantasy aztec temple? Just build a similar looking basin with state of the art rocks and vegetation instead of some south american temple with nazgul figures in front of it. A remake is about recreating, not re-interpreting.

Again, I'm not saying that what they've shown so far is bad or anything. I think that the game looks mostly good. Not fantastic but definitely competently made. And I'm eager to explore this world that Alkemia has created. The fact, that some of the guys who formerly worked on Archolos are involved in this projects makes me think the game might still be an immersive, from zero to hero experience similar to the original.

But right now the game simply doesn't feel like Gothic to me. Maybe it will once I get to play it. But I'm preparing for an experience that takes almost as mayny liberties as the playble teaser did back in 2019.

[リアンダ]

Originally posted by fracs:

Originally posted by kestar:

wider audience?

didnt care about gothic franchize before and will forget about this remake even faster since there will be no character creation, quest markers and other "quality of life" features that force player to use brainpower.

Given all the changes they've made so far they might I would not surprised to see some of these features being implemented by the time of release. If none of the characters look like they used to they might as well add a character creator for the nameless hero.

[リアンダ]

Originally posted by Dramatic_Effect:

There is a talk I think Mike Hoge once held about it, and he mentions that ~80% of the content, as in quest lines, dialogue and the lot were added in the last 4 months of development.
My point is that for such a development hell game, a remake only makes sense. Beyond fixing compatibility issues and bugs, remasters are pointless cash grabs anyway. Just play the original.

When studying game design in Vienna a couple of years ago I was lucky enough to talk with Björn Pankratz. He mentioned ohow they would work 16hour days and sleep in the office during the final months so the final 4 months were closer to 8months if you're simply talking manhours. Also keep in mind that developing games was a lot quicker back in the day. Games would regularly be completed within 2 years of development. All in all I think that Gothic 1 feels nowhere near as rushed as many modern games do. Imagine how many of them are bascially broken at launch and require 5 follow up DLCs until feeling somewhat complete. And who knows, mabye the guys over Alkimia are crunching and cutting content as we speak.

[kestar]

Originally posted by リアンダ:

Originally posted by fracs:

didnt care about gothic franchize before and will forget about this remake even faster since there will be no character creation, quest markers and other "quality of life" features that force player to use brainpower.

Given all the changes they've made so far they might I would not surprised to see some of these features being implemented by the time of release. If none of the characters look like they used to they might as well add a character creator for the nameless hero.

T-Moor explicitly said there will not be quest markers nor a character creator. Until we have evidence of the contrary, the best we can do is trust that this is true.

And by the way - a character creator or at least character customization is not as bad as you make it out to be, but that's a different discussion.

[Nico]

The difference between a Remake and a Remaster is actually pretty simple. A Remaster uses the original game files and changes some stuff and adds new stuff to it. A Remake makes everything from scratch. That's all there is. This is why Diablo 2 Resurrected is a very clear Remaster, because it is built on the original game's code.

Obviously a Remaster can't possibly derivate from its original game, since it still uses the same game files. A Remake on the other hand would have the potential to do that, but decides to not do so and try to stay close to the original. BUT neither of them is not allowed to make new content. Even a Remaster can add lots of new content, there really isn't any clear limitation.

Now, the difference to a Reboot is that it throws away everything the original once had and make a completely new story. A Reboot pretends that the original work never existed and tries to tell a similar story in a similar world, but without caring about anything that happened in the original game, as those would just be shackles that would limit them for making their Reboot.

So, the conclusion is that the Gothic Remake is a very clear Remake. It's built from scratch and tries to tell the same story as the original game, with the same locations and the same NPC's that also give out the same quests. Adding new quests on top of that won't change that.

Btw, the Playable Teaser was indeed a pitch to see if the community would be interested in a Reboot. But since the feedback has been a very clear no they decided to stick to a very faithful Remake.

[リアンダ]

Originally posted by Nico:

A Reboot pretends that the original work never existed and tries to tell a similar story in a similar world, but without caring about anything that happened in the original game, as those would just be shackles that would limit them for making their Reboot.

This isn't as clear cut as you try to make it seem. For example is "The Thing (1982)" a remake or a reboot of "The Thing from Another World (1951)". Both only share a similar setting and the eponymous, organism absorbing "thing" while everything else is pretty much completely different. So did Carpenter make a reboot or a remake. And where do you draw the line?

Now as far as Alkimia's Gothic is concerned you might have a point if the remake "only" deviates as drastically as it does from the original in terms of visuals. The old camp and the new camp seem to be the only locations people can easily recognize without being told that they are looking at a Gothic remake. But I have a feeling that the changes will be equally drastic in other areas of the game as well.

They have already said they will add additional content, rewrite dialogues and that Innos, Adanas and Beliar will only play a drastically diminished role in the game(s). Which is kind of a big deal given that the sleeper is closely connected to beliar in the original trilogy. They also said that 50% of the soundtrack will be written from scratch and the rest of the soundtrack will be newly recorded re-arrangements. We also know that cimbat, movement and levelgeometry have seen significant changes too Simply put. There's not a sinngle aspect of the original game they haven't trouched upon.

Compare that to a proper remake like Diablo: Resurrected or Destroy All Humans; Reprobed and the difference should be quite obvious. Alkimia's Gothic won't be as "rebooty" as the playable teaser but end up feeling more like a reboot than a remake when all is said and done.

[kestar]

Originally posted by リアンダ:

Originally posted by Nico:

A Reboot pretends that the original work never existed and tries to tell a similar story in a similar world, but without caring about anything that happened in the original game, as those would just be shackles that would limit them for making their Reboot.

This isn't as clear cut as you try to make it seem. For example is "The Thing (1982)" a remake or a reboot of "The Thing from Another World (1951)". Both only share a similar setting and the eponymous, organism absorbing "thing" while everything else is pretty much completely different. So did Carpenter make a reboot or a remake. And where do you draw the line?

Now as far as Alkimia's Gothic is concerned you might have a point if the remake "only" deviates as drastically as it does from the original in terms of visuals. The old camp and the new camp seem to be the only locations people can easily recognize without being told that they are looking at a Gothic remake. But I have a feeling that the changes will be equally drastic in other areas of the game as well.

They have already said they will add additional content, rewrite dialogues and that Innos, Adanas and Beliar will only play a drastically diminished role in the game(s). Which is kind of a big deal given that the sleeper is closely connected to beliar in the original trilogy. They also said that 50% of the soundtrack will be written from scratch and the rest of the soundtrack will be newly recorded re-arrangements. We also know that cimbat, movement and levelgeometry have seen significant changes too Simply put. There's not a sinngle aspect of the original game they haven't trouched upon.

Compare that to a proper remake like Diablo: Resurrected or Destroy All Humans; Reprobed and the difference should be quite obvious. Alkimia's Gothic won't be as "rebooty" as the playable teaser but end up feeling more like a reboot than a remake when all is said and done.

Just relax dude. Honestly. Wait until the game comes out, then draw conclusions. At such a late point in the project, they won’t change their mind/direction anyway no matter what you say. Based on the latest gameplay shown at Gamestar I think it has a high chance to be a really great game. The devs seem to be all fans of the original and to know the right balance / understanding about how much to innovate and how much to keep similar. Let them cook.