Denuvo discussion

[donald23]

To make it easier to post your opinion and not have the entire forum cluttered with the same discussion, we have created this central thread.

All others will be locked.

[Ryudo]

I already wrote it on Reddit and am repeating myself here:

I wanted to buy Civ 7 at release and even seriously considered pre-ordering it for a while. But that's also because I play Civ with friends and we were planning to buy the game anyway. We even watched the Gamescom opening stream together in the evening for the 2 minute trailer and the ~25 minute showcase later.

Now that Civ 7 has been announced with Denuvo, buying the game is completely off the table for us. With the exception of one person (who rarely plays anyway), all of us have had bad experiences with Denuvo. Consequently, we will now wait until Denuvo is removed from Civ 7 and continue to play Civ 6 in the meantime.

[Edge]

Denuvo, might not affect me, as a linux customer, or, it might break it for me, depending what messes they've made.
It's not just the Denuvo software itself. The strange decision to use Denuvo makes me suspect the production process, that the game will be heavily marred by the meddling of incompetent executives. Maybe the person deciding it was getting a bigger share of Denuvo's profits than of Civ's.

Anyway, saves me 120 AUD.

Reading threads like this can be fun.
This is a game that, even with warning signs like expensive blind early pre-order, no demo, and Denuvo, can be expected to make well over $100m in the first year. So of course marketing wants to control the narrative.
Which brings us to the game of trying to guess who's working for which of, Denuvo, Firaxis, and 2K, is anyone working for a competitor of Civ7, and who's just a troll?.

So my question is:
If Denuvo anti-tamper really does so little as claimed by it's representatives in the thread, why didn't Firaxis just implement something that does almost nothing, themselves?

[lonetrav]

Escrito originalmente por Edge:

...
If Denuvo anti-tamper really does so little as claimed by it's representatives in the thread, ...

Nobody denies that Denuvo needs access to a Denuvo server on a regular basis (though not permanently), both for Wndows and Linux PCs. If this is "little" or not, is a matter of personal preferences and opinion.
Whether or not Firaxis could have developed something "like Denuvo" themselves is a matter of skill, experience and money (with other words, a business decision of Firaxis, not primarily a technical one). "Does little" is used (if at all), in the sense of "not or hardly noticeable by the player", not in the sense of "easy and cheap to design, develop, implement, operate and maintain".

Escrito originalmente por Edge:

... Which brings us to the game of trying to guess who's working for which of, Denuvo, Firaxis, and 2K, is anyone working for a competitor of Civ7, and who's just a troll? ...

Well, play the game if you like :-). I think you can clearly differentiate between posters who don't mind Denuvo, who don't like Denuvo because it impacts and deteriorates their use of the game (in several ways mentioned), and those who simply don't want to pay for playing the game.

[Xaneorath]

Escrito originalmente por lonetrav:

Escrito originalmente por Edge:

... Which brings us to the game of trying to guess who's working for which of, Denuvo, Firaxis, and 2K, is anyone working for a competitor of Civ7, and who's just a troll? ...

Well, play the game if you like :-). I think you can clearly differentiate between posters who don't mind Denuvo, who don't like Denuvo because it impacts and deteriorates their use of the game (in several ways mentioned), and those who simply don't want to pay for playing the game.

I think, while mentioning utilitarian mindset (worried about technical issues from Denuvo) and greedy mindset (not wanting to pay, even if they could), you forgot people who have an issue with the morale aspect of a General Suspicion posed on every paying customer, which, in the end, Denuvo is. ;)

At least thats my reason for being against it or anything alike, self-programmed or not. I dont really want to give a go to utilarize my systems ressources for a black box which comes from such a mindset. And why should I, while I (still) have alternatives? Its not even a matter of having things to hide or not, but a matter of what type of world one wishes to live in.

[lonetrav]

Escrito originalmente por Xaneorath:

.... I dont really want to give a go to utilarize my systems ressources...:

Legitimate and understandable (as far as I'm concerned). I myself will not have Denuvo on my PC, because of the server dependancy, and because I don't trust Firaxis to remove it eventually. But I don't question Firaxis' right to sell their games for money, and to protect their property. And as much as I lke the other Civ games, my well-being doesn't depend on playing any computer game.

Let's not forget why game vendors use systems like Denuvo: It's because without there are people who would play non-free games without paying - game vendors don't implement these systems just for fun.
The main point here is that game vendors will do whatever they think is most profitable. And no profit or not enough profit, no games (like it or not). Potential customers have only one way to influence these maths: to buy or not to buy. We'll see.

As an aside: How do you feel about, say, cookies? Even "essential" ones are rarely really essential, or if they are, they are so because they were designed to be essential. Difficult to use the internet without accepting cookies at least occasionally.

[Xaneorath]

Thats quite a few questions.
I don't want to sidetrack the discussion too much and/or hog the discussion thread, but I feel I should give feedback, being so directly asked. So Ill just sum up a few of my viewpoints in this post to add some perspective, which might also add to the Denuvo discussion, but Ill keep from replying any further, so the thread at large can stick to Denuvo as it is used in Civilization.

Escrito originalmente por lonetrav:

Escrito originalmente por Xaneorath:

.... I dont really want to give a go to utilarize my systems ressources...:

[...] But I don't question Firaxis' right to sell their games for money, and to protect their property. And as much as I lke the other Civ games, my well-being doesn't depend on playing any computer game.

You see my Steam Profile. Of course I too believe in giving creative minds money for their effort/products, as much as I can, since for me it is quite the life-defining "hobby".
(And mind that my profile only reflects my gaming on Steam. As I said before, I am a player since the days of civilization 1. You can imagine how much money I threw at the industry over my lifespan.) Im doing so as best as I can, ever since the days I was but a youth with some pocket money. ;)

Escrito originalmente por lonetrav:

Let's not forget why game vendors use systems like Denuvo: It's because without there are people who would play non-free games without paying - game vendors don't implement these systems just for fun.

Yes, there are. I've had people going all "why should I pay, if I can get it for free" in discussion with me in my youth and I never liked their point of view.
Then again: I do believe you will find exactly that point of view on "both sides", its the two sides of the same coin: egoism, as in always taking the path of highest personal gain, no matter the cost, is kind of preached in many areas of this world and often presented as only viable path. Ironicaly its mostly true because egoistic behaviour makes sure of exactly that in limiting possibilities for everyone.
Which is a wonderful transition to ...

Escrito originalmente por lonetrav:

The main point here is that game vendors will do whatever they think is most profitable. And no profit or not enough profit, no games (like it or not). Potential customers have only one way to influence these maths: to buy or not to buy. We'll see.

Yep, thats the ideal. And thats why I personaly refrain from buying or participating into anything that crosses lines I cannot moraly agree on.

I do like to still think there are Game Developers who make games primarly for Gaming, Art and believe in what they do, being humble about that giving them financial benefit.
I was never much in favor of the "Big Business" thought on gaming, allthough there are quite a lot of old game series which are hard to leave behind, since I grew up with them.
I also like to believe that anyone who can afford games and is on a good morale level will be ready to pay for their hobby, without it needing to be "enforced" or "secured".
Call me old fashioned for advocating good old "trust" in others.
And last but not least I believe a heightened level of enforcement affects everyone, not just those acting in a bad manner, no matter about which area of life we talk.

Considering the effectiveness of Denuvo: I have seen others in this thread, and other comparable threads on Steam, which do have statistics and whatnot about it not even being that effective for sales.
So I believe its efficiency can at least be doubted, even if its not just about personal opinion while talking moral with an idealist like me? ;)

Escrito originalmente por lonetrav:

As an aside: How do you feel about, say, cookies? Even "essential" ones are rarely really essential, or if they are, they are so because they were designed to be essential. Difficult to use the internet without accepting cookies at least occasionally.

Very aside, will only answer shortly not to sidetrack the thread:
I personaly think Data Mining was a really bad general direction of the last decades and I believe decisions like the european DSGVO, which at least laid the amount of collected data bare to those, which it was collected from, were a very good thing.

Considering "essential cookies" not only having essential content:
Yeah, you can counterargument ~anything~ with cases where things are faked or not used correctly. However: It is the thought that counts. "Only funtional cookies" sounds like exactly the right option to me.

[lonetrav]

Escrito originalmente por Xaneorath:

... I do like to still think there are Game Developers who make games primarly for Gaming, ...

Thanks for the detailed response - highly appreciated! I agree with most of your post,
There are these developers indeed, and you can find quite a few great games if you don't follow the hype ...
Makes me wonder why it seems to be so important to play games like Civ7 (which isn't even out yet) ...
(Like I said above, I like and play the old Civ games, and I may play Civ7, too, if / when Denuvo gets removed - but a game which needs regular server connection, and may not be playable as soon as the servers are taken down is simply not for me.)

[Wintermute]

So, they afraid game will be pirated cause absurd pricing and strange new features, and adding this ♥♥♥♥♥♥ protection system to prevent this. Well, now I definitely won't buy this. Maybe on big sale much later only.

[Karlsson]

The saddest thing about Denuvo is that modding goes out the window, and to pay for it they will have to sell an enormous amount of DLC's.

[S7.RainbowDash]

Guess they don't want people to buy their game.

[Lleajy]

I thought they couldn't add more nails on the coffin but they did it.

[NinjaRobot]

I am a Civ super mega fan. Was so exited for Civ7. But now I will remove the game from my wish list. Hopefully I can buy the game, free from Denuvo, for the summer holiday 2025.

[phlypp]

Does Denuvo affect modding?

[Maverick]

unfortunately need to pass because I don't support denuvo which is malware that incentivises piracy.

[Jimbobski]

Even if they remove it before launch, they've shown their hand. It could easily be enabled some time later on down the road. Count me out. Maybe I will come back in two years and pick it out of the bargain bin if it has truly been removed.