[SPOILERS] Proposal to Rework Ending 2 Parameters

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I want to preface this with a spoiler warning, if you haven't finished the game yet please do yourself a favor and leave this discussion forum and go play it blind instead!

I'm also going to apologize because this is a lot of text (I'm a serial yapper, sorry), I just get like this when I am passionate about things and I really fell in love with this game over my playthrough.

With that out of the way, I'd like to propose a realistically achievable change to the parameters for ending 2 (the Coward Ending), that should be possible to implement without any major changes to the game technologically speaking, using data that is already tracked anyways.

I'll split this into 2 sections: The current parameters and the issue with it, and an easy (relatively) method that I think would be a big improvement.

Current Parameters for Cowardice Ending:

Abandoning Post 1: +30
Abandoning Post 2: +40
Abandoning Post 3: +70
Abandoning Post 4: +100
Hiding: Unknown new value, has been lowered after the balance patch, but hiding still does give you cowardice.

In my opinion, this approach is fundamentally flawed because you could theoretically kill every single enemy in the game, and participate in all 4 major battles, but still get executed for cowardice in extreme situations where you spent too long in the hiding spots throughout your run. It's also not really communicated to the player that using this particular mechanic excessively is 'bad' (likely to result in you being executed, without you really knowing the reason why).

The other (in my opinion more pressing) issue with this approach: It doesn't actually stop you from playing like a coward at all. With the knowledge in mind that the hiding spots specifically are bad, it is fairly trivial to avoid using them, while also still hiding from all of the enemies, or abusing the room reloading to simply run past everybody.

I just completed my first run (on Veteran), however it was my second run attempt overall because I restarted due to not initially understanding how limited saving was and the severity of the rat problem. On my second run, this led to me playing extremely avoidant of direct combat, or really killing enemies unnecessarily outside of major battles at all (to avoid the rats). It's important to mention that I created the save file AFTER the balance patch where the hiding number was changed already, and I didn't flee from any of the major battles.

Basically once I got the Combat Evasion book and the Fresh Puttees, I killed maybe 20 or less enemies total in the wandering environment, opting instead to run (like a coward). I was able to avoid the rats for the vast majority of the game, and finished out the last battle having a stuffed storage with lots of ammunition, extra gunpowder, more meds than I could use, etc. I was playing on Veteran as well.

I did end up being executed for cowardice still, but not because of my actual cowardly behavior, but rather for making excessive use of the stealth mechanic (most of which was actually for the purpose of stealth kills when I was still killing a lot before I got the evasion items). Knowing now about the hiding spots, I could just as easily cheese the open areas again and end up with the other endings if desired, despite the fact that I am most certainly playing like a coward.

This brings me to my proposed replacement for the cowardice gained from hiding.

Proposed Solution:

I think that keeping in mind the original intent of the hiding cowardice level being to punish players that overly avoid combat, it could be replaced with a kill requirement instead, and the number of kills required would vary by the game's difficulty setting. I also think that it makes more sense in the context of the story than being punished for using every possible advantage given to you when trapped behind enemy lines, as you could make a lot of use of the hiding spots to clear out the trenches and kill many enemies (not cowardly). Initially, when I got executed for cowardice I assumed it was because I left too many enemies alive, so I was pretty disappointed to find out that it was actually only because of the hiding spots.

It did feel strange that I didn't really 'need' to clear out any of the areas at all. For example the final fort in the last chapter, did we really capture it for France when I left easily 100 boche alive inside still, and basically just sprinted through the place collecting items?

This would also force the players that do not want the coward ending to engage with more of the combat mechanics, and use more of their supplies. You would also no longer be able to avoid killing enemies to avoid the rats (which now that the rats are more balanced, I feel that this is a fair trade off to increase the difficulty).

Also, the total number of kills you get, and the game difficulty are both already tracked by the game. I could be misunderstanding it, but I think that this would be a fairly hassle-free solution, as far as not needing to program new stats tracking.

Maybe the kill requirements could look something like this:

These numbers are approximated, but on my run where I was super avoidant and only killed in major battles, I ended up with about 160-170 kills on Veteran. I would qualify that performance as solidly cowardly, so I'll base it on that.

Training: Kill Requirement disabled

Recruit: 150-200 (bare minimum of killing. Kill everybody in battle, and still kill some of the wandering patrols, but not a ton.)

Soldier: 250-300 (kill everybody in all battles, kill a significant portion of patrolling enemies in the levels. My idea would be that you would have to kill roughly 40-50% of all of the enemies in the game)

Veteran: 300+ Unsure about the specific number for this one, but you should be forced to kill most of the enemies that you are capable of killing to avoid being executed for cowardice. The sweet spot for veteran, in my opinion, would be to make it theoretically possible but VERY DIFFICULT to do it without killing the unarmed shellshocked enemies that you come across, or executing all the wounded enemies. This would force the player to either take the 'high road' and kill basically literally every single combat enemy (and spare the unarmed, wounded, and shellshocked), or take a darker path and pad out their kill count by being especially ruthless to the unarmed enemies.

EDIT: SEE BELOW FOR UPDATE COMMENT, NUMBERS REVISED BASED ON A RUN I PERSONALLY COMPLETED KILLING ALL ENEMIES

I think that this change would make a lot more sense thematically with the game, and could be figured out by the average player a lot more intuitively than the current hiding cowardice mechanic. It also forces the player to engage more with the combat mechanics, and prevents the player from ever stacking up a huge stockpile of supplies and avoiding the rats by quite literally playing like a coward, while still avoiding execution by not ever using the designated hiding spots.


If anybody actually had the patience to read all of this, thank you very much <3

[yappyboi]

Game still needs a ton of fixes but pretty sure the dev is on hoildays atm so you might wanna try the discord

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Bonus Items:

These are some other things that I would like to see have an influence on the endings in the game (even if small), but I totally understand that the game is already released and things aren't likely to dramatically change. This is just a short list of things that I think would be nice if they had some more effect on the story, consider it my list of "pipe dreams" or things that I'd love to see worked on if the opportunity ever comes up one day to expand on it.

Choosing to kill or flee from the french conscript in the blockhouse who refuses to fight and attacks you. Right now you can just back out of the room, and as far as I know there isn't any consequence for disobeying the order from the lieutenant to kill any who resist.

Choosing to kill or flee from the french conscript in isolation who tries to attack you.

In my opinion killing many unarmed enemies should make you more likely to end up with the shellshocked ending, or have some kind of progressive gameplay penalty in some way. Maybe something for NG+ or an eventual Veteran Plus difficulty setting one day :)

Helping Gaston and the Medic, or having spent a lot of money with the merchant (or sold him certain high value crafted jewelry maybe). It would be nice if there was an alternative for the coward ending where you still get executed, but some small nod was made to you completing many of the sidequests like that. Maybe just a variation where one of the soldiers in the firing line is the vendor, and for a moment you see his eyes through the gas mask, and he says "Sorry, Poilu." and then you get executed. Would be fitting since he seems to show up everywhere, that he would also show up at the end.

Using the last of the health vials in the Support trench should have some small effect on the story somewhere. Would be fitting with the note asking you to only take what is necessary. Nothing too penalizing, but I think that it would be fair considering the game warns you against using all of it, and would contribute to the connected feeling of the environment, and making the trench system feel more alive. Something as simple as coming back later in the game, and Andre noticing that somebody else used the last vial and musing that he hopes it helped.

This would probably be too much work, but I think it would add a lot of immersion to the game if your equipped weapon appeared in your hands while walking around. Would necessitate making animations for both walking and running for pistols, long guns, and melee weapons. I do think just the 3 animations could be shared across all the weapons though. I understand it would be a LOT of work though and probably not possible, but if I could magically add one thing to this game (other than the main cowardice change above), this animation change would be it.

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Originally posted by yappyboi:

Game still needs a ton of fixes but pretty sure the dev is on hoildays atm so you might wanna try the discord

It's alright, I don't want to bug him too much with it, I already left a few bug reports to get through and other feedback. He can take a look at this whenever it's convenient (if ever), as far as I'm concerned that vacation is extremely well deserved after 7 years working on this game!

[yappyboi]

Originally posted by Space:

Originally posted by yappyboi:

Game still needs a ton of fixes but pretty sure the dev is on hoildays atm so you might wanna try the discord

It's alright, I don't want to bug him too much with it, I already left a few bug reports to get through and other feedback. He can take a look at this whenever it's convenient (if ever), as far as I'm concerned that vacation is extremely well deserved after 7 years working on this game!

Totally!

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Coming back to say that I just did another run through doing basically what I described in the Veteran proposed kill requirement in the original post, and the number seems about right for what I had envisioned as a 'non-cowardly' run. I very thoroughly killed every single hostile enemy in the game that I could find (including all optional areas), and it totaled to 306 kills, including kills from battles, including enemies that spawn on you in ambushes, and enemies that spawn in areas that you have already cleared (areas of souville, support trench, other areas like that that become repopulated).

This was accomplished without killing any of the shellshocked or pre-placed wounded enemies. I did still finish off enemies that I personally wounded, but not ones that I came across that were already wounded across the map.

I would probably subtract 25-50 from the total number, to give some wiggle room to still run from certain encounters that you were probably intended to run from (hunting cabin ambush, some of the basement areas where lots of enemies spawn in the room with you, although I killed all of those in my run to get this number).

This would also make it so that you could leave certain hostile, but story-telling relevant enemies alive if you so wished (such as the trench raider watching over his stabbed brother in the room where you leave Pierre in Souville, the conscript enemy keeping his wounded friend/brother company in the medical tent in the town, the conscript in the town staring at the baby's crib, and other enemies in situations like that).

However, if you wanted to avoid cowardice, and leave these special enemies (and unarmed enemies) alive, the player would have to otherwise be valiant and kill the majority of other enemies throughout the levels.

Functionally, it was a much more challenging run as well, and really tested my resource management skills, especially through the last chapter. Killing every single soldier in Fort Vaux myself was immensely challenging, but really satisfying to accomplish. I found myself switching to different weapons as I was able to scrounge up 5-10 rounds at a time, and really focused on upgrading the high damage weapons like the elephant gun and hunting shotgun to make the absolute most out of my limited ammunition.

In conclusion, I think this proposed change to the Coward ending to instead be calculated based on number of kills (and not abandoning the crucial battles, of course) would bring some more depth to the ending system for the game. A 'coward' run and a 'shellshocked/conscript' run would have COMPLETELY different playstyles, which I think would suit the respective endings a lot more than the current parameter of 'don't use the hiding spots.'

This would be the final rough amount of kills required to avoid execution by cowardice on each difficulty level that I would suggest:

Training: Kill Requirement disabled

Recruit: 125

Soldier: 200

Veteran: 250+

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Figured I would bump this thread now that the developer said he is back from his vacation, in the hopes it might get seen now.