whats this nonsense... refund me or give me a fix...

[Dutchgamer1982]

I just unpleasantly discovered this game.. that I bought on windows 7, and was working on windows 7.. that I have neverplayed.. has been sabotaged by it's developer.

I now cannot even install it and play it on an forever offline retro machine as intended.

AND THIS IS AGAINST THE LAW

you are in your right to chance terms for new purchases.. as well as I never paid for any update.. deny updates at any point for older os.
But by law it is forbidden to change terms AFTER purchase.

so what I bought on windows 7, was advertised as windows 7 compatible, and worked on windows 7.. should work on windows 7.

- you are NOT allowed to change terms and change terms on me after purchase to use your product, not alter my product in such a way that it is rendered unable to use for me.

**as such you are obligated to either provide a fix so it works on windows 7 again (I would suggest releasing the last working version as a downgrade.. and suggest windows 7 users to turn updating off)

OR

**refund the full purchase price, regardless of how long ago it was that the product was purchased or how many hours it has been played

this is NOT based on the normal right to return....
-> I have still 0 hours played but this has been sitting quite a while in my backlog so it's been well over 30 days....

but on the law of personal accountability :
Basicly it was YOUR action that robbed windows 7 users of their working property.
and thus YOU are liable to fix your mistake.
when unable or unwilling to do that.. you are liable to compensate the damage that resulted from your action..
-> in consumer right especially.. it gives the consumer the right to unbind the contract and demand full refund regardless the time passed since purchase.

normal "partial refund" as is the case of broken product procedures, where refunds are based on a lawfull "broken before it realisticly can expect to" do not apply here, since it was no "act of god" but a willfull act of seller to upload said update that broke the game by their own admission.

=====
it is my prefered solution to get a fix so it works again..
but i accept a refund..

awaiting your reply.

[Arnold Ziffle]

Windows 7 support from Microsoft ended 1/14/2020.
Windows 7 support from Steam ended on 1/1/2024.
No updated video card drivers are even supported, only older drivers are available.
Windows 10 support from Microsoft will end on 10/14/2025.

Maybe time to get a new system?

So the dev's should not have updated their game to support only Windows 10 and above so that the game could continue to be sold and played through Steam?

They should keep wasting development time for Windows 7 which is no longer supported by Steam? How does that make sense?

[Phoenix Cat]

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

I just unpleasantly discovered this game.. that I bought on windows 7, and was working on windows 7.. that I have neverplayed.. has been sabotaged by it's developer.

I now cannot even install it and play it on an forever offline retro machine as intended.

AND THIS IS AGAINST THE LAW

you are in your right to chance terms for new purchases.. as well as I never paid for any update.. deny updates at any point for older os.
But by law it is forbidden to change terms AFTER purchase.

so what I bought on windows 7, was advertised as windows 7 compatible, and worked on windows 7.. should work on windows 7.

- you are NOT allowed to change terms and change terms on me after purchase to use your product, not alter my product in such a way that it is rendered unable to use for me.

**as such you are obligated to either provide a fix so it works on windows 7 again (I would suggest releasing the last working version as a downgrade.. and suggest windows 7 users to turn updating off)

OR

**refund the full purchase price, regardless of how long ago it was that the product was purchased or how many hours it has been played

this is NOT based on the normal right to return....
-> I have still 0 hours played but this has been sitting quite a while in my backlog so it's been well over 30 days....

but on the law of personal accountability :
Basicly it was YOUR action that robbed windows 7 users of their working property.
and thus YOU are liable to fix your mistake.
when unable or unwilling to do that.. you are liable to compensate the damage that resulted from your action..
-> in consumer right especially.. it gives the consumer the right to unbind the contract and demand full refund regardless the time passed since purchase.

normal "partial refund" as is the case of broken product procedures, where refunds are based on a lawfull "broken before it realisticly can expect to" do not apply here, since it was no "act of god" but a willfull act of seller to upload said update that broke the game by their own admission.

=====
it is my prefered solution to get a fix so it works again..
but i accept a refund..

awaiting your reply.

No, it is not against the law. You bought during Early Access. Please read EA terms and conditions. You are running like a 20 year old OS. Steam takes nothing less than Windows 10 as over a year ago. Please update your OS to have the best playing experience. You gotta talk to STEAM about a refund not the DEVS. They have nothing to do with it. You have been banned multiple times before. Why make a hostile discussion??

[prtmh]

The game is updated to stay current. If you put food in your freezer for 3 years and find that it's not good when you thaw it do you demand your money back from the grocery store?

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by Arnold Ziffle:

Windows 7 support from Microsoft ended 1/14/2020.
Windows 7 support from Steam ended on 1/1/2024.
No updated video card drivers are even supported, only older drivers are available.
Windows 10 support from Microsoft will end on 10/14/2025.

Maybe time to get a new system?

So the dev's should not have updated their game to support only Windows 10 and above so that the game could continue to be sold and played through Steam?

They should keep wasting development time for Windows 7 which is no longer supported by Steam? How does that make sense?

and the same idiotic speak repeats, I get tired of rebuking it.
I could AGAIN point out that
-extended support lasted till 2023
-vital security updates are still obtained until at least 2025 (need ultimate/enterprise version of win 7 + an enterprise account)
-browser (firefox) still provides updates for windows 7 as of today.. (though they will stop updating for win 7 in 2025)

I could also AGAIN point out that the way steam dropped win 7 support was against the law....

=====
but all of that is not relevant in this case... this is not about "is windows 7 still supported"
this is about : it is against the law to change terms after purchase.

and NOBODY is forcing the devs to put in work to perpetually work to support old os.
if only thjey HAD put in no work and just kept everything the exact version as I bought it.

but thats not what they did.. they DO put in work to create updates... and THOSE broke my ability to instal and play the game and THATS against the law.

=== I remember games on fysical release.. that sometimes had a basegame that could run on 1 os.. but the expantion you bought and installed seperate as an update.. could not be installed..

I even remember "free expantions/updates" you could download and install yourseelf.. that did the same thing...

and that would be no problem.. for the product you bought you could still install as it was when you bought it and launch and play as you bought it... exactly as it was.

had you bought the expantion thats a seperate purchase and as stated you may change terms for new purchased NOT purchases already done..

and those free expantions.. well non of those you purchased so you are not entirled to be able to use them..

===============================
we may have moved digital.. but these same laws and rules apply..

I I bought the game as versions 1.2 (I would have to check that number actually but it's an older version.. than thats what I am entted on.. nothing more

but it is agains the law to force updates on a person. that "changes the product after purchase"

now could you point out "but you can turn updates off" true that.. but thats not enough for the law.
=for that does not allow me to do a fresh install without them.. to install the game as it was when I bought it.. and that very much IS against the law.

=so the developer of this game is fully allowed to release updates that only work on a newer os, or even say ANY future purchases of my product can only run it on the newer os

=> but he is NOT allowed by law to render already made sales unplayable and uninstable,

so the normal legal corse would be to provide a legacy installer an offline unchanging final version for windows 7 users (could be so easy as adding downgrade to older version to the game many games on steam allow you to select what version you want to use)

forcing users to mandatory "use the latest version" upon a new instal.. is already against the law.. but if that breaks your game.. well than.,. you are even more liable.

easiest fix would just to make the lasest confirmed to work on windows 7 version available as downgrade
if they do that and the devs done their part.
thats not "keep working"
thats just a 1 time efford... than anybody who installs their game at a future game.. (and gets the latest version) can use that downgrade option
-even better if they just provided an offline .exe than no needed steam drm at for windows 7 users thats frozen at that version.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by prtmh:

The game is updated to stay current. If you put food in your freezer for 3 years and find that it's not good when you thaw it do you demand your money back from the grocery store?

this is not that..

this is you having bought a fridge, it worked fine..
and suddenly it stopped working cause "we made our fridges only work in the usa.. and your still in the eu"

-> in fact they pulled software updates like that on some cars recently
well that was a BIG fine I can tell you

you are NOT allowed to change terms after a purchase has been made..

if the product naturally breaks.. well tough luck
but if your software update breaks it.. that makes you liable.

you are fully in your right to stop providing software updates at any point.
but you are NOT allowed to render a product useless

know I am dutch.. and we tend to have a LOT stricter consumer laws than in usa where compagnies get away with stuf that would land you in jail here.

[Phoenix Cat]

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

Originally posted by Arnold Ziffle:

Windows 7 support from Microsoft ended 1/14/2020.
Windows 7 support from Steam ended on 1/1/2024.
No updated video card drivers are even supported, only older drivers are available.
Windows 10 support from Microsoft will end on 10/14/2025.

Maybe time to get a new system?

So the dev's should not have updated their game to support only Windows 10 and above so that the game could continue to be sold and played through Steam?

They should keep wasting development time for Windows 7 which is no longer supported by Steam? How does that make sense?

and the same idiotic speak repeats, I get tired of rebuking it.
I could AGAIN point out that
-extended support lasted till 2023
-vital security updates are still obtained until at least 2025 (need ultimate/enterprise version of win 7 + an enterprise account)
-browser (firefox) still provides updates for windows 7 as of today.. (though they will stop updating for win 7 in 2025)

I could also AGAIN point out that the way steam dropped win 7 support was against the law....

=====
but all of that is not relevant in this case... this is not about "is windows 7 still supported"
this is about : it is against the law to change terms after purchase.

and NOBODY is forcing the devs to put in work to perpetually work to support old os.
if only thjey HAD put in no work and just kept everything the exact version as I bought it.

but thats not what they did.. they DO put in work to create updates... and THOSE broke my ability to instal and play the game and THATS against the law.

=== I remember games on fysical release.. that sometimes had a basegame that could run on 1 os.. but the expantion you bought and installed seperate as an update.. could not be installed..

I even remember "free expantions/updates" you could download and install yourseelf.. that did the same thing...

and that would be no problem.. for the product you bought you could still install as it was when you bought it and launch and play as you bought it... exactly as it was.

had you bought the expantion thats a seperate purchase and as stated you may change terms for new purchased NOT purchases already done..

and those free expantions.. well non of those you purchased so you are not entirled to be able to use them..

===============================
we may have moved digital.. but these same laws and rules apply..

I I bought the game as versions 1.2 (I would have to check that number actually but it's an older version.. than thats what I am entted on.. nothing more

but it is agains the law to force updates on a person. that "changes the product after purchase"

now could you point out "but you can turn updates off" true that.. but thats not enough for the law.
=for that does not allow me to do a fresh install without them.. to install the game as it was when I bought it.. and that very much IS against the law.

=so the developer of this game is fully allowed to release updates that only work on a newer os, or even say ANY future purchases of my product can only run it on the newer os

=> but he is NOT allowed by law to render already made sales unplayable and uninstable,

so the normal legal corse would be to provide a legacy installer an offline unchanging final version for windows 7 users (could be so easy as adding downgrade to older version to the game many games on steam allow you to select what version you want to use)

forcing users to mandatory "use the latest version" upon a new instal.. is already against the law.. but if that breaks your game.. well than.,. you are even more liable.

easiest fix would just to make the lasest confirmed to work on windows 7 version available as downgrade
if they do that and the devs done their part.
thats not "keep working"
thats just a 1 time efford... than anybody who installs their game at a future game.. (and gets the latest version) can use that downgrade option
-even better if they just provided an offline .exe than no needed steam drm at for windows 7 users thats frozen at that version.

Man, I have been around before computers also. But I also keep my rig up to date. If you want to play modern games you gotta have a modern rig. Plain and simple man. Please READ EA TOS. this will answer all your questions.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by Phoenix Cat:

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

and the same idiotic speak repeats, I get tired of rebuking it.
I could AGAIN point out that
-extended support lasted till 2023
-vital security updates are still obtained until at least 2025 (need ultimate/enterprise version of win 7 + an enterprise account)
-browser (firefox) still provides updates for windows 7 as of today.. (though they will stop updating for win 7 in 2025)

I could also AGAIN point out that the way steam dropped win 7 support was against the law....

=====
but all of that is not relevant in this case... this is not about "is windows 7 still supported"
this is about : it is against the law to change terms after purchase.

and NOBODY is forcing the devs to put in work to perpetually work to support old os.
if only thjey HAD put in no work and just kept everything the exact version as I bought it.

but thats not what they did.. they DO put in work to create updates... and THOSE broke my ability to instal and play the game and THATS against the law.

=== I remember games on fysical release.. that sometimes had a basegame that could run on 1 os.. but the expantion you bought and installed seperate as an update.. could not be installed..

I even remember "free expantions/updates" you could download and install yourseelf.. that did the same thing...

and that would be no problem.. for the product you bought you could still install as it was when you bought it and launch and play as you bought it... exactly as it was.

had you bought the expantion thats a seperate purchase and as stated you may change terms for new purchased NOT purchases already done..

and those free expantions.. well non of those you purchased so you are not entirled to be able to use them..

===============================
we may have moved digital.. but these same laws and rules apply..

I I bought the game as versions 1.2 (I would have to check that number actually but it's an older version.. than thats what I am entted on.. nothing more

but it is agains the law to force updates on a person. that "changes the product after purchase"

now could you point out "but you can turn updates off" true that.. but thats not enough for the law.
=for that does not allow me to do a fresh install without them.. to install the game as it was when I bought it.. and that very much IS against the law.

=so the developer of this game is fully allowed to release updates that only work on a newer os, or even say ANY future purchases of my product can only run it on the newer os

=> but he is NOT allowed by law to render already made sales unplayable and uninstable,

so the normal legal corse would be to provide a legacy installer an offline unchanging final version for windows 7 users (could be so easy as adding downgrade to older version to the game many games on steam allow you to select what version you want to use)

forcing users to mandatory "use the latest version" upon a new instal.. is already against the law.. but if that breaks your game.. well than.,. you are even more liable.

easiest fix would just to make the lasest confirmed to work on windows 7 version available as downgrade
if they do that and the devs done their part.
thats not "keep working"
thats just a 1 time efford... than anybody who installs their game at a future game.. (and gets the latest version) can use that downgrade option
-even better if they just provided an offline .exe than no needed steam drm at for windows 7 users thats frozen at that version.

Man, I have been around before computers also. But I also keep my rig up to date. If you want to play modern games you gotta have a modern rig. Plain and simple man. Please READ EA TOS. this will answer all your questions.

I not NEED to play modern games
I want to play this game exactly as I bought it.
unaltered and working.

if update 1.6 broke it.. fine.. hand me version 1.5 and deny me future updates..... thats totally acceptable and legal

but NOT rendering me unable to instal and play what I already own

----
also not relevant but my "rig" is likely outperforming most users here..
it was over 10k euro..
and it was tricky to get windows 7 to even run on it..
I did spend a lot of time and money to keep windows 7.. (including buying a full retail ultimate it for 400 euro when windows 10 was already out and free.. and extended support for 3 years for 350 euro.. when windows 10 upgrade was free..
I just deeply hate windows 10 and 11 and not want those.

it got nothing to do with my hardware not being able to run this.

[Phoenix Cat]

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

Originally posted by Phoenix Cat:

Man, I have been around before computers also. But I also keep my rig up to date. If you want to play modern games you gotta have a modern rig. Plain and simple man. Please READ EA TOS. this will answer all your questions.

I not NEED to play modern games
I want to play this game exactly as I bought it.
unaltered and working.

if update 1.6 broke it.. fine.. hand me version 1.5 and deny me future updates..... thats totally acceptable and legal

but NOT rendering me unable to instal and play what I already own

----
also not relevant but my "rig" is likely outperforming most users here..
it was over 10k euro..
and it was tricky to get windows 7 to even run on it..
I did spend a lot of time and money to keep windows 7.. (including buying a full retail ultimate it for 400 euro when windows 10 was already out and free.. and extended support for 3 years for 350 euro.. when windows 10 upgrade was free..
I just deeply hate windows 10 and 11 and not want those.

it got nothing to do with my hardware not being able to run this.

Please read the Early Access TOS. It states this game may change from its current form. That is all you need to read. This is considered a modern game. LOL

[maestro]

All I see is the OP whining about not being able to play the game on an absurdly old system.

Look, Win7 is way obsolete, and to release games compatible with it, means you don't have access to some features in programming that can do nice things in games.

There's a reason why it doesn't work on Win7 and that is because Win7 is too obsolete, and it can't support some features TPC needs to run.

[Phoenix Cat]

Originally posted by maestro:

All I see is the OP whining about not being able to play the game on an absurdly old system.

Look, Win7 is way obsolete, and to release games compatible with it, means you don't have access to some features in programming that can do nice things in games.

There's a reason why it doesn't work on Win7 and that is because Win7 is too obsolete, and it can't support some features TPC needs to run.

Ya, but I am trying to use a teaching moment. Learn the Early Access TOS if you are gonna buy EA games. He obviously doesn't know since he wants to complain about law.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by Phoenix Cat:

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

I not NEED to play modern games
I want to play this game exactly as I bought it.
unaltered and working.

if update 1.6 broke it.. fine.. hand me version 1.5 and deny me future updates..... thats totally acceptable and legal

but NOT rendering me unable to instal and play what I already own

----
also not relevant but my "rig" is likely outperforming most users here..
it was over 10k euro..
and it was tricky to get windows 7 to even run on it..
I did spend a lot of time and money to keep windows 7.. (including buying a full retail ultimate it for 400 euro when windows 10 was already out and free.. and extended support for 3 years for 350 euro.. when windows 10 upgrade was free..
I just deeply hate windows 10 and 11 and not want those.

it got nothing to do with my hardware not being able to run this.

Please read the Early Access TOS. It states this game may change from its current form. That is all you need to read. This is considered a modern game. LOL

a game that released over 2 years ago.. I would not consider exactly modern.. modern to me would be "came out last 3 month or will be coming out soon"

but though denigrating in tone.. you trigger an interesting point...
does the early acces nullyfy their obligations..

(ofcourse a good compagny should not even need to be forced by the law.. adding version 1.5 or whatever the last working version was for windows 7 is little word and the decent thing to do anyway)

firstly : not all tos is legal.. and anything not in line with law.. is invalidated
(big american compagnies like apple get sued here in europe all the time for having their own idea of what service is.. "but the customer agreed" NOT IN THE EU BUDDY.
-so local legalation overrules "what the customer agreed to" at all times.

if i look to products in the real world.. and lawsuits... experimental products, gofundme like buisnuisses...
=there is SOME leniancy in "product can change as it's developed, final product may differ" in courts of law..
=> but this is clearly not limitless.. as many such cases have been won by the consumers who felt what they got was not what they were told.
=> it seems our court of law thus has boundries for "how much" a product may vary...

and by provenance changes that render the product "broken" totally fall outside this "allowed change"

like there have been products that were launched than suddenly when recieved would only operate when linked to a service or feature that was only available in one nation rendering the product useless for anybody outside.

so that early acces clausule may have excused the forced update changes.. but not if those changes render it broken on windows 7.

this case would be made even stronger by the fact that..
when this game went OUT of early acces, 24 march 2024 it still was very much installable on windows 7.
=> thus it was clearly NOT part of early acces development.. to render the game broken for windows 7.

[Dutchgamer1982]

Originally posted by maestro:

All I see is the OP whining about not being able to play the game on an absurdly old system.

Look, Win7 is way obsolete, and to release games compatible with it, means you don't have access to some features in programming that can do nice things in games.

There's a reason why it doesn't work on Win7 and that is because Win7 is too obsolete, and it can't support some features TPC needs to run.

tpc does NOT need those "features" TPC version 1.6+ needs those versions.
I not bought versions 1.6+

just hand me the older version I bought.
I miss out on those "features" but that be fine with me

[Dutchgamer1982]

ah I found a lawsuit (been looking) thats the perfect provenance..

a person had a contract for an experimental EV vehicle..
=>
they were allowed to upgrade software AND change out parts.. and thus it's performance and apearance was alowed to alter..
=> if he needed a new battery this ment he would get the latest model who could have less or more performance than the old one..

but at one point they altered it in such a way it got 300 kilo heavier.. this resulted it to be pushed beyond the legal weight for a car meaning by our law to legally drive it you need a truck driving licence.

in my nation licences are costly and strict.. so not only would that cost him like 20000 euro (a normal licence will cost you about 5000) it's also quite possible he would not even be able to get it.. even with classes not everybody can pass that exam.

basicly "he needed a new operating system"
to run the car he purchased as a car.

he wanted out his contract and a full refund.
it came to a lawsuit and he won.. he was rewarded full refund.

others who filed similair lawsuits about the cars performance in corners or acceleration or speed or look now be much less.. those were denied... thats "part of an experimental program"

====
I'm sure I can find more cases.. but this is one that jumped out as applicable here as provenance..

change may be allowed by an EA contract... even change that may lead to lesser performance by the end user... but it's not alowed to change it in such a way it needs a whole new OS.

[Phoenix Cat]

Originally posted by Dutchgamer1982:

ah I found a lawsuit (been looking) thats the perfect provenance..

a person had a contract for an experimental EV vehicle..
=>
they were allowed to upgrade software AND change out parts.. and thus it's performance and apearance was alowed to alter..
=> if he needed a new battery this ment he would get the latest model who could have less or more performance than the old one..

but at one point they altered it in such a way it got 300 kilo heavier.. this resulted it to be pushed beyond the legal weight for a car meaning by our law to legally drive it you need a truck driving licence.

in my nation licences are costly and strict.. so not only would that cost him like 20000 euro (a normal licence will cost you about 5000) it's also quite possible he would not even be able to get it.. even with classes not everybody can pass that exam.

basicly "he needed a new operating system"
to run the car he purchased as a car.

he wanted out his contract and a full refund.
it came to a lawsuit and he won.. he was rewarded full refund.

others who filed similair lawsuits about the cars performance in corners or acceleration or speed or look now be much less.. those were denied... thats "part of an experimental program"

You are insane if you think you are going to sue Steam. As stated. It is in the Early Access TOS. You are so fixated on suing you are not reading the actual rules that matter. The ones you agreed to when you purchased the game. Good day.

Please Read and enjoy. https://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq/?snr=1_5_9_

[akarnokd]

The game won't and can't support anything older than Windows 10 21H2.

You can try and use the Steam console to downgrade your build:

https://www.makeuseof.com/how-to-downgrade-steam-games/

App ID: 1284190
Depot ID: 1284192
Manifest ID: 97037030159597411
Date: 27.03.2024