Whats the deal with Temperature (and other Units)

[Speck]

I have not even reached 2 mK which is 2 thousands of a Kelvin. Does that mean the plants can grow that close to absolute Zero?

Meanwhile the Oxygen is at 300 ppm but with a pressure of less than 1/10 than earth.
Carbon Dioxide which is arguably more important for plant growth is missing completely.

My approach has been to completely ignore what those values are supposed to be and just dump rockets and machienes on values that move slowly. It would be nice if those values had some connection to reality thoo!

[Xeth]

Yeah. Main point of critiquue is: They need to tell us about what temperature and more the Planet had before...
This would resolve quite a bit of problems @Speck mentioned above.
Kelvin can be used as a Temperature difference. The Oxygen is legit if there is a certain amount of CO2 previously there... and. The miniscule amount of millikelvin is resolved as well. another Problem, The generation of water is resolved as well. And if you consider the numbers that are visiable only the numbers of your effort and there is a runaway greenhouse effect you can very much explain what is happening around the player.

So, I thought a whole lot about it... then came to recognize... the devs arent that wrong with picking that numbers, terraforming itself is an insane thing. If they'd pick more realistic numbers... then the gear wouldnt look that realistic at all.
Well if youve got some time to spend about science in Terrafroming and interested in a few numbers; read this post: "Heya for those guys who wanted the science Part to be a bit more in the game; The Devs arent that wrong." And ignore my previous posts ranting of a scientist part; that thing was plain wrong.

[PhamTrinli]

Originally posted by cheesetoastwithjam:

RL scientist here. I'm right there with ya! I'm stumped under what conditions it makes sense to talk about nanoKelvins, given that the temperature of outer space is a couple Kelvin. And um... what in the WORLD is that ice made of, if it melts at a value of mK instead of 273 K. Helium maybe, but how in the world is my space suit not totally brittle (and how is moss growing) in that case!

Yeah, serious suspension of disbelief seems to be required!

Pretty sure it represents the average surface temperature

Theoretically takes quite a bit to warm up the entire surface of the planet even a little (and to sustain that temp - not just momentarily)

[Speck]

To properly once and for all resolve all problems relating to this the Devs have to pick an actual planet, real or simulated, and model the game planet after that.

There are several questions which have to be answered. The planet obviously has to be in the goldi Locks zone for the whole terraforming project to make any sense with any technology apart from space magic. And the reasons why the planet still has no liquid water and no atmosphere need to be adressed.

If we take Mars for an example we face a pretty similar planet to the one in the game. Mars does not have an atmosphere cause of two main reasons.
1) less gravity to hold an atmosphere
2) not geologically active to an extend to generate an Magnetosphere to repell the solar wind which blew away the atmosphere

The terraforming projects for mars would be to either generate that much gas pressure that it cant be blown away fast enough or to melt its core to generate the Magnetosphere.
Currently the melting the core part would require space magic.

The next step would be to heat up the surface enough which would take thousands of years if we did it with a greenhouse gas effect.

Once we have liquid water going at a reasonable temperature range on parts of the planet which also requires the atmosphere to have a decent pressure we can start with algae and other microorganisms. The thing about the values in the game is they do not allow for liquid water at any point. There also will need to be factors that reduce generation at some point like the Solar wind blowing away the atmosphere or heat bleeding out into space.

I do get that the Devs are not even close to finalizing any of those values but i do wonder how much they know about Terraforming in theory in the first place.

[Xeth]

you can scatch point two on mars as well due to Deimos

EDIT:

What i mean Yesterday, that you can forget about Terraforming mars and adding enouth Atmosphere due to Deimos, more Atmosphere would mean it would come down exponentially faster. And having a Moon with a mean radius of 6.2 Kilometers drop onto your planet is as deadly as it would be on earth.

[maestro]

Most likely the numbers are just placeholders to show off how mechanics might work.

I think the earlier person who said that the measurements are how much you have increased the global values is a pretty good way of looking at it.

Maybe at some eventual future, they might show you the actual planetwide average temperature and then a + number, like 150K + how much you increased it by and the ice melts at x global temperature and they'll eventually change that.

As for the blue skies... they probably didn't want you waiting absolutely forever to turn the sky blue so they had it turn relatively early to give you some measure of visible progress, otherwise you'd need way more than parts per billion. Maybe the planet already had a little oxygen and adding enough to it turns the sky blue as the atmosphere starts to develop?

Also, hopefully they realize at some point they're going to have to have the temperature stop increasing or you'll (if we try to be at least somewhat realistic) turn the planet into something like Venus where it's just too stinking hot for anything to grow.

[Speck]

Originally posted by maestro:

Also, hopefully they realize at some point they're going to have to have the temperature stop increasing or you'll (if we try to be at least somewhat realistic) turn the planet into something like Venus where it's just too stinking hot for anything to grow.

Terraforming Venus however would be a much more interesting scenario.
- An atmosphere so thick you can float structures in
- At 90 bars of pressure on the surface so you probably have to float to not get crushed at first
- A cozy 750 K Temperature
- Acid Rain that never reaches the ground
- Occasional Flood Basalts cause no continental plates

The whole process would probably involve filtering all the greenhouse gases and venting them into space and solidifying the rest. But you wont have to worry about not having enough CO²

[Xeth]

Originally posted by maestro:

As for the blue skies... they probably didn't want you waiting absolutely forever to turn the sky blue so they had it turn relatively early to give you some measure of visible progress, otherwise you'd need way more than parts per billion. Maybe the planet already had a little oxygen and adding enough to it turns the sky blue as the atmosphere starts to develop?

I guess so too, but on the evening even Mars (even tho it has 1/150) atmosphere the Sky would be blue to violett, so at least it would be semirealistic. Its fine for me.
BTW, if you wondered about my post from yesterday above i edited it.

[Attelso]

Originally posted by cheesetoastwithjam:

RL scientist here. I'm right there with ya! I'm stumped under what conditions it makes sense to talk about nanoKelvins, given that the temperature of outer space is a couple Kelvin. And um... what in the WORLD is that ice made of, if it melts at a value of mK instead of 273 K. Helium maybe, but how in the world is my space suit not totally brittle (and how is moss growing) in that case!

Yeah, serious suspension of disbelief seems to be required!

What makes less sense is that whatever temperature the water melts at. Why do we keep heating up the world magnitudes beyond that? Wouldnt we want the temperature to stay slightly above waters melting point?

[Attelso]

Originally posted by Speck:

Originally posted by maestro:

Also, hopefully they realize at some point they're going to have to have the temperature stop increasing or you'll (if we try to be at least somewhat realistic) turn the planet into something like Venus where it's just too stinking hot for anything to grow.

Terraforming Venus however would be a much more interesting scenario.
- An atmosphere so thick you can float structures in
- At 90 bars of pressure on the surface so you probably have to float to not get crushed at first
- A cozy 750 K Temperature
- Acid Rain that never reaches the ground
- Occasional Flood Basalts cause no continental plates

The whole process would probably involve filtering all the greenhouse gases and venting them into space and solidifying the rest. But you wont have to worry about not having enough CO²

Wouldnt gravity have the gases come right back at you in a matter of time? It would require obscene levels of energy to vent every gas beyond the gravitational field.

[Xeth]

Originally posted by Attelso:

What makes less sense is that whatever temperature the water melts at. Why do we keep heating up the world magnitudes beyond that? Wouldnt we want the temperature to stay slightly above waters melting point?

What magnitiudes beyond that? Below. Below was what he ment.
0 Kelvin means absolute zero which corresponds to -273.15 °C. Its hella Cold. AND: Nothing can reach that temperature, thats why i see the numbers on the Terraforming-Board as Difference they just have to be. Anyway 1 millikelvin then corresponds to a temperature 1 millionsth of a °C above absolute zero. Its still hella cold. Getting the planet heated more than a Kelvin seems difficult to me in that game. And considering that heating a planet needs a ♥♥♥♥-ton of energy you shouldn't... criticise idea of Speck terraforming venus that much (i suggested it somewhere else as well)
I didnt calculate the energy needed for Heating the planet but i did calculate the mass needed for adding 1 Pascal singular to a Venuslike Planet. 43 Megatons. BTW Earth has an average 101350 Pascal at Ocean level... And even Considering that a Drill V1 adds 8,67 tons of gas to the atmosphere a second it wouldnt be enough to make the planet terraform in 1.000.000 of years. I guess the Values of the heaters will be correspondingly insane. And Tier 3-4 Equipment doesnt suffice to get some real terrafroming going on. The reality would be like you needed Tier 5 Equipment or Tier 1 Equipment roughly a 100.000 times better to see the same effects you experiece at the beginning of the game with Tier 1 Equipment. I mean you create a Atmosphere which would correspond to a few hundred pascals, and then reach the 610 Pascal Treshold of Triplepoint of water and after that you get lakes of that stuff. Well Tier 5 Equipment or the insane luck of a runaway greenhouse effect could explain the insane Terraforming process, you expierience in that game.

Originally posted by Attelso:

Wouldnt gravity have the gases come right back at you in a matter of time? It would require obscene levels of energy to vent every gas beyond the gravitational field.

We talk about Terraforming, it needs obcene levels of energy anyway :D.
So it wouldnt make a difference If you need 1 Times of an Insanly huge amount of energy or 10 Times an Insanly huge amount of energy to Terraform a planet.

[Attelso]

Originally posted by Xeth:

Originally posted by Attelso:

What makes less sense is that whatever temperature the water melts at. Why do we keep heating up the world magnitudes beyond that? Wouldnt we want the temperature to stay slightly above waters melting point?

What magnitiudes beyond that? Below. Below was what he ment.
0 Kelvin means absolute zero which corresponds to -273.15 °C. Its hella Cold. AND: Nothing can reach that temperature, thats why i see the numbers on the Terraforming-Board as Difference they just have to be. Anyway 1 millikelvin then corresponds to a temperature 1 millionsth of a °C above absolute zero. Its still hella cold. Getting the planet heated more than a Kelvin seems difficult to me in that game. And considering that heating a planet needs a ♥♥♥♥-ton of energy you shouldn't... criticise idea of Speck terraforming venus that much (i suggested it somewhere else as well)
I didnt calculate the energy needed for Heating the planet but i did calculate the mass needed for adding 1 Pascal singular to a Venuslike Planet. 43 Megatons. BTW Earth has an average 101350 Pascal at Ocean level... And even Considering that a Drill V1 adds 8,67 tons of gas to the atmosphere a second it wouldnt be enough to make the planet terraform in 1.000.000 of years. I guess the Values of the heaters will be correspondingly insane. And Tier 3-4 Equipment doesnt suffice to get some real terrafroming going on. The reality would be like you needed Tier 5 Equipment or Tier 1 Equipment roughly a 100.000 times better to see the same effects you experiece at the beginning of the game with Tier 1 Equipment. I mean you create a Atmosphere which would correspond to a few hundred pascals, and then reach the 610 Pascal Treshold of Triplepoint of water and after that you get lakes of that stuff. Well Tier 5 Equipment or the insane luck of a runaway greenhouse effect could explain the insane Terraforming process, you expierience in that game.

Originally posted by Attelso:

Wouldnt gravity have the gases come right back at you in a matter of time? It would require obscene levels of energy to vent every gas beyond the gravitational field.

We talk about Terraforming, it needs obcene levels of energy anyway :D.
So it wouldnt make a difference If you need 1 Times of an Insanly huge amount of energy or 10 Times an Insanly huge amount of energy to Terraform a planet.

Im aware of that, I was raising another point as i said, even if we imagine a world where water melts earlier, would why we continue to heat up the planet after that point.

[Xeth]

Ah, then i got you wrong.

[Rilameth]

There is evidence in-game that there have been other, failed, terraforming attempts in the past on the same planet. So we could also factor that in - that we're essentially picking up from where prior (now dead) terraformers left off, which means that some or maybe even a lot of the work may've already been done. Which leaves us to do just the amount left to see some real results.

One possible theory, anyway.

[Dramoth]

Totally agree with the temp thing. It's crazy. If we crash landed into a planet at 0 Kelvin, the escape pod would freeze and when we impacted onto the surface, it'd be a big ball of fine ice crystals and all the other molecule particles as everything explodes. If somehow, we managed to survive that, we couldn't be able to walk on the surface because any shock to our body (a footstep) would be enough to shatter the boots of the space suit, and dead again.

Think Europa in terms of trying to terraform it.

if you want an idea of the scale of terraforming a planet with 1G and a hostile atmosphere, watch Aliens. There would be hundreds of those terraforming reactors all over the planet and IIRC, it was going to take decades to terraform it.

[mzperX]

These type of critics will only be valid once the game is out, now it's in beta.
For now it wouldn't make a difference if you would use completely made up units and numbers either I think.