Balanced no political approach in the beginning

[Jet]

I'm gonna put this first, I'm really not that far into the game. But there could be spoilers below.


I'm currently on the mission to find the lost Lake camp. I'm sure those who have played know roughly where I'm at. The story is good, and the gunplay, despite complaints, is starting to grow on me. Anywho what is bothering me, atleast in this longer beginning I've played through, there is a clear dichotomy between the first two available camps. One is a right wing, patriot, conspiracy ran camp. They're starving, barely making it off of fish in the lake. The leader, Copeland, is this right wing nut job. He has a radio where he goes on his borederline fascist rants about right is might, which to some degree could make sense in this post apocalyptic world. The protaganist clearly has a problem with how he preaches about it, offering an arguement to every radio broadcast that is put out. He runs the camp with a a strict no murdering, no raping, no stealing approach. Those who break the rules don't just get killed, but get put on 'trial', an attempt at keeping the old american society. This is provided through an early mission he provides for a drifter that violates the rules. He doesn't like the protaganist, he won't pick a side, but overall it seems that he runs his camp with good intentions, despite his conspiracy fueled right wing rambles.

The other camp is a work camp. A socialist work camp. Anyone who stays, has to work, through fear, beratement, starvation, and who knows what else. At first, when meeting with the lady Tucker, she's almost this endearing tough old lady. She's running the camp as she sees fit for surivival in this post apocalyptic world, with once again, great intentions. But it's clearly a different camp from the first. She doesn't go on conspiracy driven rambles, she puts on the facade that she cares for her people, and maybe to some extent she does. But what clearly motivates her is more bodies for more work. This actually makes sense as well in a post apocalyptic world. More people working together, a better chance for survival. But it becomes clear through various missions, her overall goal is to simply have more people for more work, her facade of care seems to be just that, a facade. Theres even an interesting point here, much of her work is revolved around digging, an arbitrary task that seems to be a waste from an outsiders point of view ( maybe this will develop into something later, hell the story wouldnt surprise me if it did ) But overall, she puts up a front of caring for people, women and children in particular, but overall works them to the point of slavery.

Why am I rambling about this? Well theres a clear distinction of left and right. A socialist work camp, and a fascist in the name of patriotism right wing camp. The game is making a point to not take a side, and theres absurdities in both of them. Now this game may develop more of a negative with Copelands camp, and perhaps an altruistic goal of the digging for Tucker's camp. The game is clearly playing a middle ground approach, the protaganist doesn't want to join either camp, he's a drifter that see's that in the end, neither camp is good, and he's pessimistic towards working with others, seeing only the negative. I'm sure the game will develop more on it. But it bothers me, that in today's society, this is the middle ground approach. We clearly have several missions showing the true horror of working with Tucker, the socialist camp. They in fact have to expand upon the camp, and force the protaganist to see the effects of such a camp. As for Copeland? No missions to force the protaganist( thereby us) to see through the facade of a conspiracy driven patriotic right wing camp. Simply a camp that is presumed to be starving and struggling, and radio broadcasts to show just how 'crazy' the leader of the camp is. It doesn't feel equal, and i think it's an itneresting observation of today's politics. This game is striving towards making a political point about both sides, but also a non biased approach. But the evils of one camp, where no one wants to stay in a socialist camp that works you to death, vs a camp that spouts crazy ideas but overall is just struggling to survive, really highlights the extremes that our american politics has become. Crazy and harsh implementation, vs crazy ideas and a struggling existence.

These are the drunken rambles of a guy who plays the middle road in real politics. If you find it interesting how on the nose these two camps are, please post below. Please no spoilers, I will continue down this games story and maybe I'll come back to amend this post. Idk, one camp doesn't seem as bad as the other currently, and that of course could change, but before my mind is changed, I find the game playing a middle ground approach, while not absurd for not pickign a side, but absurd that this is today's society of middle ground, it's almost as if they can't find a true negative to Copeland's camp, besides that the leader spouts conspiracies and borderline fascist ideology. Where as the socialist camp, we're forced through missions to feel a more personal downside to leftist ideology. Or maybe that's just a personal struggle of mine, and am curirous as to what kind of response I'll get here.

[lucent]

w33t-NAM Bob

You want advice? DON'T BUY THE PIECE OF CRAP!

Well, a bear ate this guys bike ... so I want to be in the camp that has bear traps.

[Sam]

Then there is Big Mike's camp, with is pretty middle of the road.
I wouldn't really call Copelands camp fascist, just because he is a patriot. He is for law and order, that's not fascist. If anyone is that, it's Tucker. Both socialist and fascist (goes together hand in hand).
I think Deek doesn't like Copeland much because, after all, he is all about law and order, and seeing how Deek's background is a biker gang enforcer, they would never see eye to eye in that regard.
Tucker is evil, does not care about anyone's feelings or safety, as long as they get their asses to work.
But like I said, Big Mikes camp, although not free of drama, is a pretty chill place without any left/right politics.

[Ɣɪ¢♰ɪɱƧ]

While I can see evident ideological messaging in the game, I don't really see the clear cut portrayal of those two political ideologies you mention.

First of all, you are assigning stereotypes to Copeland's camp. As in patriotism = right wing or conspiracy theories = right wing. Left and right are very vague concepts to start with, but there's people self proclaimed left wing that are patriotic and believe in their own conspiracy theories. Regardless, Deek usually agrees with Copeland because he's actually usually right. He just has personal beef with him because he stole his bike and tore it apart and had people stalking him. Regarding the borderline fascistic ideology... Again I just don't see it. What's fascistic about it? Is the camp run by technocrats? Is there some growing corporativism going on? Copeland is a prepper and he has prepper rants on the radio. And he has some anti-statist rants too which doesn't sound very fascistic.

I don't know what's left wing about Tucker. We'd have to stablish first what's supposed to be left wing, like I said it's a very vague term and I think the dichotomy exists only to promote hooliganism for the benefit of the political class, but there's no socializing of anything in Tucker's camp. She runs the camp like a prison, because she was the head of a female ward in a penitentiary. There's an evident class system (shot callers/lords > guards/vassals > workers/peasants) in the camp and the means of production and subsistence belong to the heads of said camp, not to the workers. It works almost like a feudal regime (without fiefs) other than anything else.

There is though some sort of slander towards anarchists in the game. They're a group of weirdos and all hostile. You have marauders, drifters, rippers, freakers... Why add anarchists out of nowhere? Them being anarchists doesn't add anything to the story.

[Daliena]

Wouldn't call Copeland a "law and order" guy.

Remember, he rants about how the right to property is sacred, but he will steal- sorry, "salvage" your property and sell it in an instant if he thinks he can get away with it.

He'll rant about how these "might makes right" types need to respect the law and not just take what they want, and in the same broadcast ramble about how sure it was okay when the Natives had their lands stolen.

He blathers about the "land of the free", while his own camp is under martial law.

He'll rant about how people got a right to decide for themselves.. But God help you if you cooperate with NERO or what he considers "The Feds", because then he makes it clear that he will murder you, slow and painful like.

All in all, Mark Copeland is just a giant hypocrite.

Ada Tucker meanwhile is an apocalypse slaver, she doesn't care about anyone who's name isn't Ada Tucker, at least not beyond their usefulness to her, either as her enforcers who will merrily beat workers who don't work fast enough, or the slaves who will provide for her camp.

Iron Mike, meanwhile.. Well, as far as I'm concerned, he's an idiot and a coward who should never have been allowed anywhere near a position of authority, not because he's a vile person like the former two, but because he's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid and gets a lot of people killed. There's a few other camp leaders later on too, but I won't comment on them for now.

[Alun1]

considering there are conspiracy theories on both sides of the political aisle, i wouldn't exactly call either camp right-wing or left-wing. there isn't really much in game to define either as which. yes you have "patriots" and "slavers" but neither i would consider right or left, especially now in the modern climate where the "slavers" would be considered right wing.

personally, i think the game is more a message about the hypocrisy of ideology.

[Bazinga]

Originally posted by Alun1:

considering there are conspiracy theories on both sides of the political aisle, i wouldn't exactly call either camp right-wing or left-wing. there isn't really much in game to define either as which. yes you have "patriots" and "slavers" but neither i would consider right or left, especially now in the modern climate where the "slavers" would be considered right wing.

personally, i think the game is more a message about the hypocrisy of ideology.

Yeah this, after finishing the game you see the positives and negatives of both i guess.

[Sam]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Wouldn't call Copeland a "law and order" guy.

Remember, he rants about how the right to property is sacred, but he will steal- sorry, "salvage" your property and sell it in an instant if he thinks he can get away with it.

He'll rant about how these "might makes right" types need to respect the law and not just take what they want, and in the same broadcast ramble about how sure it was okay when the Natives had their lands stolen.

He blathers about the "land of the free", while his own camp is under martial law.

He'll rant about how people got a right to decide for themselves.. But God help you if you cooperate with NERO or what he considers "The Feds", because then he makes it clear that he will murder you, slow and painful like.

All in all, Mark Copeland is just a giant hypocrite.

Ada Tucker meanwhile is an apocalypse slaver, she doesn't care about anyone who's name isn't Ada Tucker, at least not beyond their usefulness to her, either as her enforcers who will merrily beat workers who don't work fast enough, or the slaves who will provide for her camp.

Iron Mike, meanwhile.. Well, as far as I'm concerned, he's an idiot and a coward who should never have been allowed anywhere near a position of authority, not because he's a vile person like the former two, but because he's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid and gets a lot of people killed. There's a few other camp leaders later on too, but I won't comment on them for now.

Hmm so in an apocalypse scenario such as this, where resources are scarce, and you saw a motorcycle in the bushes, you would be like "Oh, let's leave it there, it must belong to someone". X for doubt.
He didn't know it was Deeks bike, and he didn't know where they stayed, so he didn't even know it was boozers bike either when they spotted it.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by sam:

Hmm so in an apocalypse scenario such as this, where resources are scarce, and you saw a motorcycle in the bushes, you would be like "Oh, let's leave it there, it must belong to someone". X for doubt.
He didn't know it was Deeks bike, and he didn't know where they stayed, so he didn't even know it was boozers bike either when they spotted it.

Bollocks he didn't know - Deacon's bike wasn't exactly difficult to recognize, and he'd done work for Copeland before so it's not like Cope and his camp would be total strangers to his bike.

Even so it took 'em what, a few hours to find a bike that had clearly been hidden (covered up with leaves, not shoved into a bush) instead of just casually abandoned, take it back to their camp, -immediately- strip it for parts, and already have those parts sold off to god knows who?

Same deal with Boozer, he ran with Deacon and was around Copeland's camp before, so they should dang well be able to recognize his bike. Cope was just after a quick score and a "yeah well what're you gonna do about it?" response when someone came knocking, especially since the parts were already gone (or at least so Cope claims) so conveniently, even if he wanted to he couldn't return them.

[Sam]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by sam:

Hmm so in an apocalypse scenario such as this, where resources are scarce, and you saw a motorcycle in the bushes, you would be like "Oh, let's leave it there, it must belong to someone". X for doubt.
He didn't know it was Deeks bike, and he didn't know where they stayed, so he didn't even know it was boozers bike either when they spotted it.

Bollocks he didn't know - Deacon's bike wasn't exactly difficult to recognize, and he'd done work for Copeland before so it's not like Cope and his camp would be total strangers to his bike.

Even so it took 'em what, a few hours to find a bike that had clearly been hidden (covered up with leaves, not shoved into a bush) instead of just casually abandoned, take it back to their camp, -immediately- strip it for parts, and already have those parts sold off to god knows who?

Same deal with Boozer, he ran with Deacon and was around Copeland's camp before, so they should dang well be able to recognize his bike. Cope was just after a quick score and a "yeah well what're you gonna do about it?" response when someone came knocking, especially since the parts were already gone (or at least so Cope claims) so conveniently, even if he wanted to he couldn't return them.

Hey, to each their own. You think your way I think mine :)

[Hyde]

Originally posted by Daliena:

Originally posted by sam:

Hmm so in an apocalypse scenario such as this, where resources are scarce, and you saw a motorcycle in the bushes, you would be like "Oh, let's leave it there, it must belong to someone". X for doubt.
He didn't know it was Deeks bike, and he didn't know where they stayed, so he didn't even know it was boozers bike either when they spotted it.

Bollocks he didn't know - Deacon's bike wasn't exactly difficult to recognize, and he'd done work for Copeland before so it's not like Cope and his camp would be total strangers to his bike.

Even so it took 'em what, a few hours to find a bike that had clearly been hidden (covered up with leaves, not shoved into a bush) instead of just casually abandoned, take it back to their camp, -immediately- strip it for parts, and already have those parts sold off to god knows who?

Same deal with Boozer, he ran with Deacon and was around Copeland's camp before, so they should dang well be able to recognize his bike. Cope was just after a quick score and a "yeah well what're you gonna do about it?" response when someone came knocking, especially since the parts were already gone (or at least so Cope claims) so conveniently, even if he wanted to he couldn't return them.

When he radios you right after you retrieve Boozer's bike, Copeland actually admits believing it to be Boozer's bike. He likely knew Deacon's bike was his, but there is a chance he didn't. Boozer's bike he very clearly did know, which is why he immediately contacted Deacon about it due to both knowing they lived up in that area as well as the aforementioned fact that he recognized the bike.

[九芫一]

Originally posted by sam:

Then there is Big Mike's camp, with is pretty middle of the road.
I wouldn't really call Copelands camp fascist, just because he is a patriot. He is for law and order, that's not fascist. If anyone is that, it's Tucker. Both socialist and fascist (goes together hand in hand).
I think Deek doesn't like Copeland much because, after all, he is all about law and order, and seeing how Deek's background is a biker gang enforcer, they would never see eye to eye in that regard.
Tucker is evil, does not care about anyone's feelings or safety, as long as they get their asses to work.
But like I said, Big Mikes camp, although not free of drama, is a pretty chill place without any left/right politics.

Tell me you are ignorant of history and brainwashed with out telling me you're ignorant of history and brainwashed.

How, exactly, is fascism incompatible with law and order? Y Do you even know what fascism is? It's symbology, the fasces, a bundle of sticks with an ax head affixed atop to symbolize many weak sticks working together are unbreakable. Are you aware that that symbol is on the Lincoln memoral and the U.S. dime? E Pluribus Unum is reflective of the fasces many sticks coming together as one ax shaft.

Everybody brainwashed to hate the foundations of Western civilization. Good grief. Rome was fascist too. Guess they are incompatible with law and order as well. /s

[Alun1]

fascism gets thrown around to willingly these days, usually by the left at anyone they disagree with, historically totalitarian governments were fascist (nazi/soviet/chinese) and often used some form of socialism or communism to get there.

[Daliena]

Originally posted by sam:

Hey, to each their own. You think your way I think mine :)

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Hyde:

When he radios you right after you retrieve Boozer's bike, Copeland actually admits believing it to be Boozer's bike. He likely knew Deacon's bike was his, but there is a chance he didn't. Boozer's bike he very clearly did know, which is why he immediately contacted Deacon about it due to both knowing they lived up in that area as well as the aforementioned fact that he recognized the bike.

Nah. He radios you after you retrieve Boozer's bike, saying that a few of his guys had found it (before you went to retrieve it) then they'd gone back later to "salvage" it and huh, strangely, the bike was gone.

Cope also was set to buy (stolen) drugs at the very start - Leon and Alvarez stole a bunch from Tucker's Hot Springs camp, Leon decided he didn't want to share so he bashed in Alvarez's head, you later go to Copeland's camp after your bike is "salvaged" and Copeland recognizes Leon's hat and says that Leon had promised him a stash of drugs, and says that if Deacon happens to find it, he's still willing to buy.

I find it iffy to believe that Cope believed that Leon had just randomly discovered those out in the wilds, all things considered, but that's me.

[TimLM]

Originally posted by sam:

Then there is Big Mike's camp, with is pretty middle of the road.
I wouldn't really call Copelands camp fascist, just because he is a patriot. He is for law and order, that's not fascist. If anyone is that, it's Tucker. Both socialist and fascist (goes together hand in hand).
I think Deek doesn't like Copeland much because, after all, he is all about law and order, and seeing how Deek's background is a biker gang enforcer, they would never see eye to eye in that regard.
Tucker is evil, does not care about anyone's feelings or safety, as long as they get their asses to work.
But like I said, Big Mikes camp, although not free of drama, is a pretty chill place without any left/right politics.

Socialism and fascism does not go hand in hand at all.

Fascism is defined as "far right" on the classical left-right wing spectrum.

Even then, being right wing or left wing doesn't make you a totalitarian.
Both are dangerous in their extremes.

[Lowlight]

To the hammered, everything looks like a nail.