Revisiting Liu Association Section 1

[Flygoniaks]

Spoiler Warning for Chapter 6, as usual.

Today I want to return to an old reception that was added a few weeks back, rather than focusing on the new stuff. I have a few issues with the design of the Liu Section 1 reception and want to share my ideas on how to make it more interesting.

The Reception

My main complaint with the Liu Section 1 Reception is the act composition/floor count. As a reminder, this reception makes you use 1 floor for 2 acts. I think it should be changed to a 3 act, 2 floor reception, possibly with Chun appearing in Act 2.

I have a few reasons for this:

1: Many receptions for Chapter 6 already have the "2 acts, 1 floor" composition, and it's been bothering me. We're near the end of the game - we should get some longer receptions! It's perfectly reasonable to have more 3-act battles at this point.

2: The previous Liu battles also have 2 acts and 1 floor, so shouldn't the one after be a step up? This is also the only time we see generic Section 1 Fixers; shouldn't there be lots of them since they're throwing everything they've got at the Library?

3: I've heard some say that the rapid escalation of difficulty from Act 1 to Act 2 makes grinding this reception risky. Putting Chun earlier than the others makes it easier to farm for his book, since he will be separate from the rest of the threats.

In case you're wondering, it won't be difficult to just change the act composition like this. It would take a few minutes at most and I don't think it will create any new bugs.

What about difficulty?

I acknowledge that these changes will probably make the reception a bit easier overall. However, it also makes the reception longer, making it closer to a "war of attrition". This makes it different from the other Liu receptions, something I really think it desperately needs to stand out. The Liu battles are really similar to each other...

In other words, making it easier is not my main objective. Last time I gave a critique on a reception, I got accused of trying to nerf it because I didn't get that point across. I'm not sure what everyone's stance on Section 1 is, but I'm clarifying this just in case.

If you're afraid that the reception will become too easy compared to other Chapter 6 battles, perhaps we can think of a compromise to maintain its difficulty with 3 acts. I'm open to your ideas, so if this worries you we can consider more changes!

The Key Pages

I also have a minor complaint with the Key Pages, and this is that way too many good Key Pages have "Fervor" as a passive right now. I think we could use some more variety by replacing this passive with something else!

Here is my idea for a passive to replace "Fervor" on the Section 1 Fixer's Pages (this would also extend to Chun, Miris, and Xiao):
Fury (cost 4): All dice gain +1 power at emotion level 4 and above.

How does that sound? It requires a higher emotion level than Fervor, but it also affects defensive dice, so I think it's a fair tradeoff. It's different enough to satisfy me but won't significantly alter the playstyle of these Pages. This should work out!

A potential concern with this is that you could stack both "Fervor" and my "Fury" for a permanent +2 to offensive dice at level 4+, but I don't anticipate this becoming a huge problem for balance. I could be wrong, though! If it really becomes an issue, they can make it so the two of them are incompatible (i.e. "cannot overlap").

This is just an idea. I'm not super set on what this alternative passive could be, so if you have any other ideas for passives you can leave them below!

Closing remark (READ ME!!!)

PLEASE read this carefully and keep an open mind. Last time I wrote something like this it got a lot of backlash, so I'm very nervous about posting this. I won't necessarily respond to your all comments if this blows up like that other post or I sense that you haven't given my proposal fair consideration. And as usual, please be polite to both me and everyone else in the replies, thank you very much! 

Lastly, another clarification: I don't plan to change Chun, Miris, or Xiao outside of what's mentioned here. My main concern is the act composition; however, I'm not against the idea if you think they should be changed! We can talk it out.

[Flygoniaks]

Oh, also, I'm thinking of making this a mini-series as the game approaches its full release. I'll go through various receptions and give my opinion on how they could be improved or given polish. If you're interested in reading that or think it will help Project Moon, let me know!

[Mightbuddy6]

I gotta disagree for several reasons, first is that thematically it doesn’t work because Xiao has quit her position as Director thus will only have her most loyal employees following her which is why there numbers are smaller, second is that the fight would be easier for the wrong reasons because we would be at a higher emotion level and thus having more ego/abnormality pages

[BrownianMotion]

Correct me if i am wrong but currently its already a 5 librarian fight on 2 acts, with all enemies starting at 2 dice.

I take it that your main goal is to make the fight last longer, but it is already decently long compare to earlier receptions. This is because later reception enemies have higher number of dice which means that to play optimally you will want to clash with the correct pages. More dice means more options leading to more possible decisions to be made.

If you compare this to earlier receptions where enemies only have 1 dice, it is a lot quicker to clear through those floors. I dont want to be doing 3 floor battle just to grind out some Chun book. If we want to have longer memorable battles, then it needs to be where we wont need to grind it out for books.

Also, another issue is why bother with 3 floors, not much about the battle is changed or interesting enough to warrant slogging through another floor of the same enemy? Maybe if the enemies had different passives or cards for each of the floors, then that would be interesting.

I would be in favor of longer single memorable battle versus multiple short battles to grind out some book etc.

[Armstrong Houston]

Maybe I'm just misremembering, but wouldn't putting Chun on a different floor mean you'd only obtain generic books from the final act? That'd be kind of a let down since there really isn't anything to gain(not that it matters since you'd just nuke it with 3 EGO).

[Flygoniaks]

Originally posted by alanparedes6:

I gotta disagree for several reasons, first is that thematically it doesn’t work because Xiao has quit her position as Director thus will only have her most loyal employees following her which is why there numbers are smaller, second is that the fight would be easier for the wrong reasons because we would be at a higher emotion level and thus having more ego/abnormality pages

I see the validity of your first point, though your second makes me unsure if you've read everything. I said that I'm open to possibly making it harder in other ways, did I not?

Originally posted by Armstrong Houston:

Maybe I'm just misremembering, but wouldn't putting Chun on a different floor mean you'd only obtain generic books from the final act? That'd be kind of a let down since there really isn't anything to gain(not that it matters since you'd just nuke it with 3 EGO).

True, though you do lose a book of Lowell, Mei, and Cecil if you lose the fight, so there's still incentive to win. I was just thinking that it would be easier to grind Chun without Xiao and Miris meddling in the same act. Get Chun's book, and then try to not lose the other books.

Originally posted by BrownianMotion:

If you compare this to earlier receptions where enemies only have 1 dice, it is a lot quicker to clear through those floors. I dont want to be doing 3 floor battle just to grind out some Chun book. If we want to have longer memorable battles, then it needs to be where we wont need to grind it out for books.

Also, another issue is why bother with 3 floors, not much about the battle is changed or interesting enough to warrant slogging through another floor of the same enemy? Maybe if the enemies had different passives or cards for each of the floors, then that would be interesting.

As I said in the original post, part of my thinking is that the reception is currently too similar to the other Liu receptions, making this part of the story pretty boring IMO. Making this one more of an endurance run gives some much-needed variety (ALSO, chapter 6 currently has FIVE 2-act, 1 floor receptions, and chapters 3/4/5 have SEVERAL 2-act receptions as well).

And, like I said, putting Chun in the second act means it's arguably easier to grind, since you don't necessarily have to beat (pretty much) the entire reception to reap the rewards.

As for enemy variety, I wound't mind if the regular Liu Fixers had slightly different decks for each act, though this would take (slightly) more effort to program in. At the very least this is the only time we actually fight Section 1 Fixers, so they're unique to this reception.

[AritheReaper]

Hmm. I disagree, for most of the other reasons prior comments have pointed out.

I'd expect it wouldn't really feel like a war of attrition, as it likely WOULD just come down to dealing with Section 1 grunts + Chun for the first two acts before spamming mass attack pages in the final one. Especially since Liu Association's grunt gimmick is primarily just high rolls w/emotion level, along with some burn.

I suppose if you wanted a longer & harder fight, it might be worth considering taking something of an R. Corp approach to it. Take the grunts we have now for Section 1 and throw them into the first Act, make a "Liu Section 1, Book 2" grunt with some new cards and different passives to throw in with Chun, and then follow up with Xiao, Miris, and a mix of the grunts from the prior acts.

I dunno. I can see where you're coming from with the 2 act/1 floor thing, and I really would love more long fights like the R. Corp ones, but not really sure how you'd go about it with this invitation specifically.

[Mightbuddy6]

Originally posted by Flygoniaks:

Originally posted by alanparedes6:

I gotta disagree for several reasons, first is that thematically it doesn’t work because Xiao has quit her position as Director thus will only have her most loyal employees following her which is why there numbers are smaller, second is that the fight would be easier for the wrong reasons because we would be at a higher emotion level and thus having more ego/abnormality pages

I see the validity of your first point, though your second makes me unsure if you've read everything. I said that I'm open to possibly making it harder in other ways, did I not?

Originally posted by Armstrong Houston:

Maybe I'm just misremembering, but wouldn't putting Chun on a different floor mean you'd only obtain generic books from the final act? That'd be kind of a let down since there really isn't anything to gain(not that it matters since you'd just nuke it with 3 EGO).

True, though you do lose a book of Lowell, Mei, and Cecil if you lose the fight, so there's still incentive to win. I was just thinking that it would be easier to grind Chun without Xiao and Miris meddling in the same act. Get Chun's book, and then try to not lose the other books.

Originally posted by BrownianMotion:

If you compare this to earlier receptions where enemies only have 1 dice, it is a lot quicker to clear through those floors. I dont want to be doing 3 floor battle just to grind out some Chun book. If we want to have longer memorable battles, then it needs to be where we wont need to grind it out for books.

Also, another issue is why bother with 3 floors, not much about the battle is changed or interesting enough to warrant slogging through another floor of the same enemy? Maybe if the enemies had different passives or cards for each of the floors, then that would be interesting.

As I said in the original post, part of my thinking is that the reception is currently too similar to the other Liu receptions, making this part of the story pretty boring IMO. Making this one more of an endurance run gives some much-needed variety (ALSO, chapter 6 currently has FIVE 2-act, 1 floor receptions, and chapters 3/4/5 have SEVERAL 2-act receptions as well).

And, like I said, putting Chun in the second act means it's arguably easier to grind, since you don't necessarily have to beat (pretty much) the entire reception to reap the rewards.

As for enemy variety, I wound't mind if the regular Liu Fixers had slightly different decks for each act, though this would take (slightly) more effort to program in. At the very least this is the only time we actually fight Section 1 Fixers, so they're unique to this reception.

While I can appreciate your goal to help smooth out the grind, the reason I didn’t comment majorly on the difficulty is because I believe that you can’t make it harder(whether we make your changes to make Chun easier to grind) without making the fight fundamentally different. On your point that star receptions have mostly been made up of 2 acts it’s while the ones before have had more acts, this is because we now have ego, more abnormality pages, and more passives to transfer which make any extended engagement in our favor. The only non-boss fight that has broken this trend was Rcorp but that’s because we fought 4 gold enemies with 3 of them with strong mass attacks which neither Chun nor Mirris would have as purple enemies. In conclusion there is, I believe, no way to change the reception that would not completely change this act

Ps. putting Chun on the first act would drastically decrease the enemy power in the second act and would need massive changes to compensate for that but would be terrible story wise that she would not be by Xiao’s side

[changb1]

I agree on your part with having longer fights, but I think the second row of SotC is pretty balanced in current state.

Seeing how index proxies is basically a health wall by themselves and R Corp being 3 acts and The Red Mist being, well the red mist. Non mentioned above with a intention of wreaking the entire library. I think those fights are justified not being lengthy. On the other hand, Xiao instead doesn’t really feel like a threat powerful enough to be a major threat to the library, if you’re thinking of longer fights Xiao should be the one that deserves a stage change instead of Liu section 1.

With the same reason as someone state above, lore-wise it would also be better for Liu section 1 to remain being 2 acts 1 floor. I know they seemed not so powerful compared to section 2 counterparts, but still giving us two floors and buffing them is still too great a favor for us.

Last, switching Fevor for a similar passives doesn’t seemed like a bad idea to spice things up, but I think just transferring different passives on general nugget works as well, just nerfing their stats should be enough to balance things.

[Grey Rebl]

Considering that the guests will die sooner than reach emotion level 4, especially when compared to the golden Prescripts who has a similar problem which was at least justified with the consequent use of their exclusives, this Fury passive will have to be a hard pass in terms of difficulty—not unless you're trying to farm a specific book.

[Morrowsaw]

I think that the fight is fine as it is, but Section 1 has annoyed me for having the same passive as well in all honesty. Mainly because they all run singular strike decks, and have a ton of support for the passive yet don't have singular strike themselves when you obtain their books,

A more up to date source of that ability aside from Valentin would've been nice, or some variant of it that also works well with their deck setups.

Like maybe the first dice in a page has +1 power? I don't know just something that works with single point strike would be nice.

[Flygoniaks]

OK, so I've had some time to sleep and think about this post. I'm glad it didn't blow up while I was away, and instead only got a few mostly neutral responses. Thanks for the feedback!

First of all, I think alanparedes6 was probably right, at least about leaving Chun in the final act. I wasn't prioritizing balance/difficulty when I came up with my initial proposal, instead going for the solution that would take the least time to program. If we want to make the reception easier to grind, we could just give the player more books of Chun for doing it.

Though, excluding Xiao, Miris, and Chun, a 3-act reception would only be 12 Fixers. This is less than the number of Section 2 Fixers we fought, and is still believable in the story IMO.

Now that I've given it some thought, I won't be mad if the reception stays the way it is now.

However, I'm somehow even more interested in the idea of a 3-act Liu Section 1 than I was yesterday. This time, it's more curiosity than complaint. I think this reception has untapped potential and could be transformed into something really unique and fun once polished.

This is because there's one particular response that caught my attention:

Originally posted by AritheReaper:

I suppose if you wanted a longer & harder fight, it might be worth considering taking something of an R. Corp approach to it. Take the grunts we have now for Section 1 and throw them into the first Act, make a "Liu Section 1, Book 2" grunt with some new cards and different passives to throw in with Chun, and then follow up with Xiao, Miris, and a mix of the grunts from the prior acts.

I dunno. I can see where you're coming from with the 2 act/1 floor thing, and I really would love more long fights like the R. Corp ones, but not really sure how you'd go about it with this invitation specifically.

Last night, a thought occurred to me. If what we're talking about becomes reality, we will have a 3-act, 2 floor reception against enemies specializing in burn. This is something we don't yet have in the game, and I think it could be a really fun challenge. The player will have to be careful, or the burn will become a major problem with low long the battle is!

Of course, there's the matter of getting max emotion by act 3 and then obliterating the bosses with E.G.O. However, if balanced properly, this could be difficult to do safely because of all the burn. Unless you're quite skilled, you will enter the final act either with 2 floors with moderate emotion level, or 1 floor with max emotion but low HP, the other floor being the opposite. Also, the Liu Fixers gain emotion surprisingly quickly, keeping it interesting!

To spice things up, the Liu Fixers in the second act will be have a slightly different deck and different passives (though not a unique Key Page). I'm not certain what exactly their build should be, but Stigma Workshop Weaponry seems like the obvious shoe-in for a passive due to its special synergy with "Fervid Emotions." Why not show that off?

The decks of the Act 1 Fixers will probably be altered a little as well to differentiate them from the Act 2 Fixers (Act 3 will have 1 of each as support?). Assuming no new Combat Pages are added for this overhaul, it won't take much to do in the programming aspect. It will take a bit of time, sure, but most of the time will probably be spent on balancing.

This is all just the basic concept, of course. I'm now convinced that the Section 1 reception is fine as it, but I also think it can be given a makeover to make it stand out! If you have have any ideas let me know, and we can possibly flesh this out into something awesome!

[Flygoniaks]

Separate response regarding my "Fury" passive. I appreciate everyone's feedback!

Originally posted by Grey Rebl:

Considering that the guests will die sooner than reach emotion level 4, especially when compared to the golden Prescripts who has a similar problem which was at least justified with the consequent use of their exclusives, this Fury passive will have to be a hard pass in terms of difficulty—not unless you're trying to farm a specific book.

Fun fact, the Key Pages we can use and the Key Pages used by the enemy are separate in the game files. So it's totally possible to give the hypothetical "Fury" to one and not the other.

If what you say really becomes an issue and the reception is too easy, they can make it so the enemies still have "Fervor" even when we get "Fury" on the Key Pages. Will that work?

Originally posted by Morrowsaw:

I think that the fight is fine as it is, but Section 1 has annoyed me for having the same passive as well in all honesty. Mainly because they all run singular strike decks, and have a ton of support for the passive yet don't have singular strike themselves when you obtain their books,

A more up to date source of that ability aside from Valentin would've been nice, or some variant of it that also works well with their deck setups.

Like maybe the first dice in a page has +1 power? I don't know just something that works with single point strike would be nice.

Ohh, like Katriel's "Empowered First Shot," but it affects more than just ranged pages at the tradeoff of a higher cost? That's an interesting idea and it synergizes somewhat with the decks they use in the reception. Thanks for your suggestion, I'll keep it in mind!

Originally posted by changb1:

Last, switching Fevor for a similar passives doesn’t seemed like a bad idea to spice things up, but I think just transferring different passives on general nugget works as well, just nerfing their stats should be enough to balance things.

I wasn't trying to nerf the Key Pages or anything in terms of passives, because Fervor is pretty much fine as a passive and Fury shouldn't be much better or worse. I just want to open up more build options, such as possibly combining Fury with block or evade builds.

[Infolane]

I will die if that turns to a 3-floorer. More sweeper-tier nightmare feat burn? Count me Outta There

[Grey Rebl]

Originally posted by Flygoniaks:

If what you say really becomes an issue and the reception is too easy, they can make it so the enemies still have "Fervor" even when we get "Fury" on the Key Pages. Will that work?

Uh...? If we're just fighting mooks with the same old "Fervor" rather than anything new, what would be the point? Such a roundabout solution would invalidate the purpose of your original post.

You are proposing a 3-act burn specialized reception, where it's encouraged that you kill your guests as quickly as possible before you die of burn, be it through more speed dice, abnormality gimmicks, or mass attack EGO pages. "Fury" has potential when attributed to our own key pages, but not so much for our guests, who will just die before reaching emotion level 4, because the nature of their reception wants you to kill them ASAP.

At least with "Fervor", with an emotion level 3, it synergizes with the sense of urgency. With "Fury" you won't even notice it while sweating over the 10ish burn you're racking up. This concept passive would seem to work more for a beefy 1-Act reception, but not so much a 3-act full-offensive.

So, rather than raw power at a late stage, why not a burn effect on emotion level? Taking inspiration from Cecile and Mei: inflict enemy group burn per emotion level, or burn on-hit at say, emotion level 3. If we're committed to a game of hot potato, then may as well double down on it.

[Flygoniaks]

Originally posted by Grey Rebl:

Uh...? If we're just fighting mooks with the same old "Fervor" rather than anything new, what would be the point? Such a roundabout solution would invalidate the purpose of your original post.

You are proposing a 3-act burn specialized reception, where it's encouraged that you kill your guests as quickly as possible before you die of burn, be it through more speed dice, abnormality gimmicks, or mass attack EGO pages. "Fury" has potential when attributed to our own key pages, but not so much for our guests, who will just die before reaching emotion level 4, because the nature of their reception wants you to kill them ASAP.

At least with "Fervor", with an emotion level 3, it synergizes with the sense of urgency. With "Fury" you won't even notice it while sweating over the 10ish burn you're racking up. This concept passive would seem to work more for a beefy 1-Act reception, but not so much a 3-act full-offensive.

So, rather than raw power at a late stage, why not a burn effect on emotion level? Taking inspiration from Cecile and Mei: inflict enemy group burn per emotion level, or burn on-hit at say, emotion level 3. If we're committed to a game of hot potato, then may as well double down on it.

Fair point! I'll take this into account for later. I'm open to all sorts of ideas as to what passive could replace "Fervor" for Section 1 (or even replace Fervor for Section 2 Pages instead?). "Fury" was just a simple example I came up with, not necessarily something I'm pushing for.

Burn-on-hit for emotion level sounds like it could be interesting, too. Section 1 has notably more burn passives than Section 2, so it fits. We'll have to see what other people think.