Need to Talk About Shi Association, Again

[Flygoniaks]

IMPORTANT NOTICE: This is a continuation/revival of a discussion I started in October! There I explained how the Shi Association's Key Pages had a history of creating problems for the developers due to their high max HP, and proposed a solution. If you want to read that post (it's kind of long), you can find it here!

Hey guys! Since Project Moon changed (most) of the Shi Association's Key Pages a few updates ago, I thought it would be best to revive this discussion to see everyone's opinions on the new Shi Pages. I also want to give my own opinion on the changes. I'm trying to be fair, but spoiler alert, I think there's a better way to balance them.

My opinion

First off, what are the good parts of the change? There are two in particular:

1: The Shi Fixer, Tenma, and Valentin's Key Pages no longer interfere with balancing with their now-average max HP. That's one problem solved, right...?

2: "Kizuna" can be attributed to other Key Pages with less risk in terms of not starting the battle with absurdly low HP. This gives the Shi Fixer Page a use!

Overall, I would say that the current state of the Shi Pages is definitely healthier for balance than it was before. However, I don't think what Project Moon has attempted to do is necessarily the best solution. There's two main reasons for this:

1: Yujin's Page remains unchanged, meaning all the Shi Page's issues (see the linked post for details) are still present through her. What's the point, then?

2: Part of the fun with the Shi Pages was that they had mediocre starting HP but high max HP, giving them a lot of potential for recovery or low-health combos that were really neat. Starting them out at 75% HP inadvertently makes this a minor quirk rather than something that truly affects their playstyle and their potential.

So how do we address the negatives without hurting the positives? Here's my new, slightly-modified proposal, which I believe should resolve it:

A Shi Fixer's Page: I think this Key Page should be kept as it is now, since it makes attributing "Kizuna/Extreme Fatigue" less risky. It's not like this Page is used as the "core" of people's builds, anyway, so keeping it this way is better for attribution. My only request is that the passive name be changed to just "Kizuna" to distinguish it from its lower-health counterpart. I fully admit that for this Key Page in particular, Project Moon's solution is probably better than what I came up with.

Yujin's Page, Tenma's Page, Valentin's Page: I believe that my original proposal (which, again, you can find here!) is a better way to stop these Pages from interfering with the balance while maintaining what makes them unique. If you want a short summary, I proposed cutting the original max HP of those Shi Pages in half (so around 120 max HP) and having them start at 50% HP. This should fix the balancing issues while keeping the Shi Pages fun to use, something I think the current solution is lacking.

Now it's your turn!

Now that I've gotten that off of my chest, what do you guys think? Are you satisfied with the current state of the Shi Pages (and also healing passives, etc.) or are you still unsure like I am? Do you think my proposal will improve the game or is it just plain unnecessary (please be honest)? Are there potential flaws in my solution that I didn't realize? It's totally fine to have a different solution in mind, I'm open to ideas!

As usual, please make sure to be polite and respectful to both me and others in the replies, even if you disagree. We're all trying to provide feedback to Project Moon so they can make this game the best it can be, so there's no use in fighting each other!

I'll try to keep watch on this discussion and reply when I can, but I can't guarantee that I'll necessary be able to keep up if this discussion really blows up. Sorry!

[Clarity]

I believe they nerfed the Limited pages' max HP because their healing was pretty exploitable, and funnily enough, they would heal above 25% max HP during realization phases. Not to mention the abuse of power from Faint Memories.
Yujin being the only one with a ridiculous amount of max HP, they made her page powerful enough to be unique as it should be for being the rarest key page of the book.

And honeslty, Yujin alone is not a problem with HP, you can even look at Nemo with Oscar's passive and you basically have an undying Librarian.

[Traumaturgy]

I would like to see your original solution implemented for the rare Shi pages. However, I would also like to see the Shi pages adjusted for that threshold. As it stands, Valentin has much worse use of Overcome Crisis, which was a big part of his whole shtick. Tenma also benefits much less from the Shi Pages. In addition, Shi Pages can barely be used on non-Shi pages. Why not change that?

[Flygoniaks]

Originally posted by Traumaturgy:

I would like to see your original solution implemented for the rare Shi pages. However, I would also like to see the Shi pages adjusted for that threshold. As it stands, Valentin has much worse use of Overcome Crisis, which was a big part of his whole shtick. Tenma also benefits much less from the Shi Pages. In addition, Shi Pages can barely be used on non-Shi pages. Why not change that?

Yeah, I remember this coming up in the original discussion as well. We eventually agreed that the Shi's Combat Pages (at least the ones that had low-health effects) should probably be buffed (from 25% to 50% to start, then maybe adjust further if they aren't quite balanced) to make them easier to use by Shi and non-Shi. I still think that's a good idea!

Originally posted by Roseline:

Yujin being the only one with a ridiculous amount of max HP, they made her page powerful enough to be unique as it should be for being the rarest key page of the book.

And honeslty, Yujin alone is not a problem with HP

Frankly, I disagree. If you read my original discussion, I explained how Project Moon had to repeatedly nerf and/or apply max values to healing passives and Abnormality Pages, mostly because the Shi Pages could recover ridiculous amounts of HP. This has made most healing passives very weak on other Key Pages. If Yujin's Page remains the way it is now, Project Moon will continuously have to constantly balance any new healing stuff around this single Key Page. However, simply halving its max HP and starting it out at 50% should fix this.

[changb1]

Originally posted by Flygoniaks:

This has made most healing passives very weak on other Key Pages.
If Yujin's Page remains the way it is now, Project Moon will continuously have to constantly balance any new healing stuff around this single Key Page. However, simply halving its max HP and starting it out at 50% should fix this.

I think otherwise though, if they think that Shi healing too much was the problem, they could've simply adjusted the cap of healing from each passives since that is already implemented in game. I would say something else that might be implemented late game was the real thing that limits us from getting too much healing done, I believe we will have receptions are abnormality battle with lots of enemies, like price of silence and mountain of smiling bodies but with more entities spawned.
If Cecil passives seems to be healing too well, I would argue that with the healing plus starting health, Yujin may seemed like gaining a huge health reserve. But in truth is SotC pages getting over-healed way too much in practice, so Yujin doesn't bypass any current pages in term of health, and will remain a position of health reserve.
On the other hand, 5% on corpse cleanup while seemingly not much at first glance, it's really really sweet when you come to late game receptions, where battles doesn't really take too long due to mass attack spamming, and for pages like R corp where passive slot are limited, corpse cleanup ironically became the best healing passive.
TL;DR first glace Shi seemed to be effecting healing balance, that doesn't seemed to be the case after putting some thought into they haven't tuned it down after so much attempts tweaking healing (EX: corpse cleanup ). The real deal effecting it was something not yet implemented but no one knows about so now Shi is taking the blame.
With game breaking stuff like Red mist rounding up each act within two scenes and Nothing there providing you ways to double the power of EGOs, I would say Shi is the least of PM’s concern.

[BladeSaint]

1. Change all shi character max hp values to around 120.
2. Force kizuna to make their hp 50% of their max hp.
3. Change all the shi pages that require 25% or lower hp to simply require the Kizuna passive.
4. Make kizuna cost 3 or 4.

Shi characters now all equally viable. %Health stacking no longer ridiculous. I've been awake for about 15 hours so Ima just leave this here and forget about it until tomorrow.

[Ekimmak]

If you're going to nerf the one remaining 25%'r of Shi Corp, you might as well throw the whole reception out, because all their "under 25% hp" pages will become mostly useless.

If you could have multiple of Yujin's page, a nerf would be needed... but it isn't. One page able to rack up a high HP buffer isn't that big in the game, especially when it has a built in vulnerability to mass attacks and focus mechanics.

[CarThief]

Hm... I don't see much reason to change how the pages work now. Though with what they are now, they're basically almost Star of the City-tier, or atleast enough to do base SotC missions with. Besides Yujin, they practically cap at 100HP, something you only see on SotC pages.

Does make them a little strong, but nothing outrageous. Ah well, seems fine by me.
And Yujin's page being the only one with a insane HP cap seems fine, purely because it's a single page. May as well make atleast one of them special. It's still one hell of a go-to page for Netzach's floor, especially if you throw on some of Cecil's healing and Corpse Cleanup.

So yeah, short version...
-Yujin's page is an object d'art page, so being extra strong is not a issue since you only get one.
-Tenma/Valentin's pages got a lot stronger, almost Star of the City-tier, but that's not a bad thing. They seem fine as-is.

Hm... One thing PM could always do is give the Shi Association enemies their typical 200HP or so, but apply the -75% HP debuff to them all. That way, they can still use their special 25% or less HP effects.

Since it's not the first nor last time they've altered enemy passives or stats like the Sweepers retaining 20% healing, or most Star of the City missions giving enemies additional synergizing passives (and more HP/etc).

[Flygoniaks]

OK, seems I might need to clarify a few things:

Originally posted by Littaylor:

1. Change all shi character max hp values to around 120.
2. Force kizuna to make their hp 50% of their max hp.
3. Change all the shi pages that require 25% or lower hp to simply require the Kizuna passive.
4. Make kizuna cost 3 or 4.

Shi characters now all equally viable. %Health stacking no longer ridiculous. I've been awake for about 15 hours so Ima just leave this here and forget about it until tomorrow.

Pretty similar to what my original proposal was, though I suggested buffing the Shi Combat Pages to require 50% hp instead (so they're more usable without Kizuna to back them up). I'll also add an extra piece to this proposal that I mentioned in this discussion:

5: Keep the Shi Fixer's Page as it is right now (75% HP) so Kizuna can potentially be used in other Key Pages without drastic health loss, though with a higher point cost.

Here's something that I don't blame the user for not knowing about:

Originally posted by Ekimmak:

If you're going to nerf the one remaining 25%'r of Shi Corp, you might as well throw the whole reception out, because all their "under 25% hp" pages will become mostly useless.

This was only mentioned once or twice so far in this discussion, but back in October we brought up the point that the Shi's Combat Pages (To Overcome Crisis, etc.) should probably get a buff (such as triggering their effects at 50% instead of 25%) to be more usable with the revamped Shi Pages. Honestly, this probably needs to be done even if the current state of the Key Pages doesn't change, since it's significantly harder to use them.

These are two minor things I noticed, but there's a bigger running theme in the replies that I'm going to address in the next post. Just posting first to get it out of the way.

[Flygoniaks]

Originally posted by changb1:

If Cecil passives seems to be healing too well, I would argue that with the healing plus starting health, Yujin may seemed like gaining a huge health reserve. But in truth is SotC pages getting over-healed way too much in practice, so Yujin doesn't bypass any current pages in term of health, and will remain a position of health reserve.
...
The real deal effecting it was something not yet implemented [Flygon's Note: I think you mean the healing limits here?] but no one knows about so now Shi is taking the blame.

Originally posted by Ekimmak:

If you could have multiple of Yujin's page, a nerf would be needed... but it isn't. One page able to rack up a high HP buffer isn't that big in the game, especially when it has a built in vulnerability to mass attacks and focus mechanics.

Originally posted by CarThief:

And Yujin's page being the only one with a insane HP cap seems fine, purely because it's a single page. May as well make atleast one of them special. It's still one hell of a go-to page for Netzach's floor, especially if you throw on some of Cecil's healing and Corpse Cleanup.

All these replies seem to bring up, in one way or another, the point of "it's only ONE Key Page with ridiculously high HP, it can't be THAT bad, right?" Let me explain via example.

First, note that the only reason Yujin's Page doesn't surpass SotC HP is the healing cap.

If you recall, Instant Cooking and Corpse Cleanup have a max healing limit of 12 HP. But did you realize that Yujin's Page is currently the only Key Page in the entire game that actually reaches this limit? This also applies to the other pre-patch Shi Pages. My point is, the healing limit only needed to be coded in because of the Shi Page's ridiculous max HP. This is not the only example of how the Shi's Max HP has created issues for balancing.

I HIGHLY recommend you read my original discussion from October (found here). There I go into great detail about the Shi Page's history of creating exploits and messing with the game's balance. Even if Tenma's and Valentin's Pages are no longer an issue in terms of balancing, as long as Yujin's Page remains the way it is, the concerns raised in my October discussion are not truly resolved, and there is no guarantee that new crazy issues won't appear.

TL;DR: from the perspective of having to do more coding and balancing, the fact that it's only ONE Key Page with the issue now doesn't really make a difference. It will be much easier for the devs to address this now rather than deal with more problems as they come up.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh in this reply, but I'm trying to explain why the current solution doesn't really solve the original problem(s) I brought up back in October. Do I make sense?

Closing thoughts, for this writing session at least:

Originally posted by changb1:

With game breaking stuff like Red mist rounding up each act within two scenes and Nothing there providing you ways to double the power of EGOs, I would say Shi is the least of PM’s concern.

I do think it's funny, how since I began talking about this in October we've had a bunch of other crazy new Key/Combat Pages that have totally made the discussion about the Shi seem trivial. Currently all the buzz is about Counter Dice. But I do seriously believe that Yujin's Page will continue to be an annoyance if it keeps being ignored, and it's quite simple to fix.

[snek]

Originally posted by Flygoniaks:

Originally posted by changb1:

If Cecil passives seems to be healing too well, I would argue that with the healing plus starting health, Yujin may seemed like gaining a huge health reserve. But in truth is SotC pages getting over-healed way too much in practice, so Yujin doesn't bypass any current pages in term of health, and will remain a position of health reserve.
...
The real deal effecting it was something not yet implemented [Flygon's Note: I think you mean the healing limits here?] but no one knows about so now Shi is taking the blame.

Originally posted by Ekimmak:

If you could have multiple of Yujin's page, a nerf would be needed... but it isn't. One page able to rack up a high HP buffer isn't that big in the game, especially when it has a built in vulnerability to mass attacks and focus mechanics.

Originally posted by CarThief:

And Yujin's page being the only one with a insane HP cap seems fine, purely because it's a single page. May as well make atleast one of them special. It's still one hell of a go-to page for Netzach's floor, especially if you throw on some of Cecil's healing and Corpse Cleanup.

All these replies seem to bring up, in one way or another, the point of "it's only ONE Key Page with ridiculously high HP, it can't be THAT bad, right?" Let me explain via example.

First, note that the only reason Yujin's Page doesn't surpass SotC HP is the healing cap.

If you recall, Instant Cooking and Corpse Cleanup have a max healing limit of 12 HP. But did you realize that Yujin's Page is currently the only Key Page in the entire game that actually reaches this limit? This also applies to the other pre-patch Shi Pages. My point is, the healing limit only needed to be coded in because of the Shi Page's ridiculous max HP. This is not the only example of how the Shi's Max HP has created issues for balancing.

I HIGHLY recommend you read my original discussion from October (found here). There I go into great detail about the Shi Page's history of creating exploits and messing with the game's balance. Even if Tenma's and Valentin's Pages are no longer an issue in terms of balancing, as long as Yujin's Page remains the way it is, the concerns raised in my October discussion are not truly resolved, and there is no guarantee that new crazy issues won't appear.

TL;DR: from the perspective of having to do more coding and balancing, the fact that it's only ONE Key Page with the issue now doesn't really make a difference. It will be much easier for the devs to address this now rather than deal with more problems as they come up.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh in this reply, but I'm trying to explain why the current solution doesn't really solve the original problem(s) I brought up back in October. Do I make sense?

Closing thoughts, for this writing session at least:

Originally posted by changb1:

With game breaking stuff like Red mist rounding up each act within two scenes and Nothing there providing you ways to double the power of EGOs, I would say Shi is the least of PM’s concern.

I do think it's funny, how since I began talking about this in October we've had a bunch of other crazy new Key/Combat Pages that have totally made the discussion about the Shi seem trivial. Currently all the buzz is about Counter Dice. But I do seriously believe that Yujin's Page will continue to be an annoyance if it keeps being ignored, and it's quite simple to fix.

Other Key pages are rapidly catching up to that regen limit though, with pages now breaching the 100 HP mark even before the use of Battle Symbols.
Yujin caps out at 3 usable Speed Dice at EL4 or above while we're getting pages that reach that at EL3, and gain a 4th at EL4, letting them push out far more attacks than the rest and make full use of their decks.
Yujin I found also suffered super badly now thanks to that broken dice, Mass Attacks absolutely love to target it which leave Yujin eating full damage no matter what and thanks to her pretty average SP she won't take much even at full SP before a stagger especially with something like Mind Crush.

Yujin now has a niche with a tri-Clone and tri-Rapid Gashes deck thanks to Overbreathing, but she has no Mass Attacks of her own, and her exclusive is soft-replaced with Castigation and now even Nikolai's exclusive. Sure Yujin can get great single target damage via Rapid Gashes, but it can't beat Ground Smash, Vert Horizontal Slash or even Mind Crush.

With the game turning into a rocket tag of Mass Attack use and generally killing the enemy before they can use their own (see: R Corp), a character that while strong normally but is often helpless against Mass Attacks suffers super hard. Compare this to characters we have now (turn 2 Mass Attacks with Lowell and Red Mist, practically permanent partywide +1 with Nikolai, insane damage of Maxim, rapid stagger damage of Rudolf) and I'd say that Yujin is outdated. Why have single target dps when I can get a full team stagger on turn 2 or 3 guaranteed? This heal cap is also being met by new pages and will continue to do so, 250 hp drains much faster than you expect when a stagger kicks in.

[Flygoniaks]

Originally posted by snek:

Other Key pages are rapidly catching up to that regen limit though, with pages now breaching the 100 HP mark even before the use of Battle Symbols.
Yujin caps out at 3 usable Speed Dice at EL4 or above while we're getting pages that reach that at EL3, and gain a 4th at EL4, letting them push out far more attacks than the rest and make full use of their decks.
Yujin I found also suffered super badly now thanks to that broken dice, Mass Attacks absolutely love to target it which leave Yujin eating full damage no matter what and thanks to her pretty average SP she won't take much even at full SP before a stagger especially with something like Mind Crush.

Yujin now has a niche with a tri-Clone and tri-Rapid Gashes deck thanks to Overbreathing, but she has no Mass Attacks of her own, and her exclusive is soft-replaced with Castigation and now even Nikolai's exclusive. Sure Yujin can get great single target damage via Rapid Gashes, but it can't beat Ground Smash, Vert Horizontal Slash or even Mind Crush.

With the game turning into a rocket tag of Mass Attack use and generally killing the enemy before they can use their own (see: R Corp), a character that while strong normally but is often helpless against Mass Attacks suffers super hard. Compare this to characters we have now (turn 2 Mass Attacks with Lowell and Red Mist, practically permanent partywide +1 with Nikolai, insane damage of Maxim, rapid stagger damage of Rudolf) and I'd say that Yujin is outdated. Why have single target dps when I can get a full team stagger on turn 2 or 3 guaranteed? This heal cap is also being met by new pages and will continue to do so, 250 hp drains much faster than you expect when a stagger kicks in.

I get the feeling that you missed my point, because I honestly don't see how this disproves it. I am NOT trying to say that Yujin could become some unstoppable monster with ridiculous amounts of health recovery. She definitely has a bunch of unique weaknesses that make her more impractical than she's worth in many different situations. She's a gimmick, really.

What I AM saying is Yujin's Page (along with the other Shi Pages, previously) has been very annoying to balance since its max HP is much higher than anything else we will be able to obtain. It required a whole ordeal that involved putting limits nearly every passive and Abnormality Page that included %healing. If any more healing stuff is introduced, it will probably have to go through the same stuff simply because Yujin's Page exists.

I'm trying to show that it doesn't have to be this way. It would be easier for the devs to just cut Yujin's max HP in half and have her start with 50%. That should put her max HP about on par with end-game pages, meaning they will no longer need to balance any healing around Yujin. Plus, provided the Shi Combat Pages get buffs (which they probably should), she shouldn't be any less useful, with the possible exception of Faint Memories.

[CarThief]

Oh, i'm well aware of how broken the old HP bulk of the Shi pages where when there was no cap on damage/healing if it was percentage-based.

I suppose PM where trying to make a point "ooh, look how strong they are, they're practically almost Colours, good thing they're severely weakened huh?", and having to resort to a damage/HP cap on anything percentage-based is rather sloppy, but oh well. Things are what they are now.

The problem of Shi pages being too good at healing/damage has been solved, and the only issue is Yujin overhealing rather easily. Though at this rate it seems a intentional choice, given the low 54ish starting HP if memory serves me, which pretty much begs for the use of Cecil's passive, or Corpse Cleanup, Instant Cooking, Health Hauler, or other powerful healing effects.

So yeah... Is it sloppy as all hell? Yeah. But does it work? Yep.
Not like i want to ruin a good thing anyway, Yujin makes for a good Netzach floor page with the Clone setup. In an age of Binah and Red Mist, there's nothing wrong with a little extra power from well-placed passive mixes.

---

Though... One thing i WOULD change is the healing cap, and add one to Yujin's page.
-Yujin's page: Additional passive: Any percentage-based healing is capped at 12HP maximum.
Edit: Ideally without consuming yet another passive slot. Rather, it could be attached to an existing Yujin-exclusive passive. Perhaps the 75% health reduction.

-Corpse Cleanup: Heal 20% HP (to a maximum of 12HP).
-Instant Cooking: Heal 20% HP (also to a maximum of 12HP.)
-Firm as a Great Mountain: Heal uh... 25% HP? (Up to a maximum of 20HP.)

Or something along those lines anyway. Bigger % ranges to allow for better healing on lower-HP pages, but still a fairly strict cap. This lets healing work as intended again for other pages while Yujin's page is no longer forcing the percentage healing system to be less effecient.

(There's very little reason to go for Corpse Cleanup if it litterally heals like 6HP, when you could heal 2HP per hit from Health Hauler.)

[Flygoniaks]

Originally posted by CarThief:

Though... One thing i WOULD change is the healing cap, and add one to Yujin's page.
-Yujin's page: Additional passive: Any percentage-based healing is capped at 12HP maximum.

-Corpse Cleanup: Heal 20% HP (to a maximum of 12HP).
-Instant Cooking: Heal 20% HP (also to a maximum of 12HP.)
-Firm as a Great Mountain: Heal uh... 25% HP? (Up to a maximum of 20HP.)

Or something along those lines anyway. Bigger % ranges to allow for better healing on lower-HP pages, but still a fairly strict cap. This lets healing work as intended again for other pages while Yujin's page is no longer forcing the percentage healing system to be less effecient.

(There's very little reason to go for Corpse Cleanup if it litterally heals like 6HP, when you could heal 2HP per hit from Health Hauler.)

Yujin's Key Page is already crammed with passives, so simply adding a new one is a bad idea. However, they could potentially modify her version of "Extreme Fatigue" to include this part. That would also solve the problem, though I could argue that just doing the 50% proposal is easier while still allowing for the passive buffs and interesting builds you mentioned.

Either way, I'm glad that you've realized my point on how the current solution is "sloppy."

Though as a lore note, they are NOT ANYWHERE NEAR the Colors in terms of power. This is Section 2 we're dealing with, they would probably be about on par with the Liu Fixers (such as Lowell) at their full strength, not even close to the 200+ HP they used to have.

[CarThief]

I dunno, blue boi was like what, 500HP? If that's any standard to work on, Yujin got pretty close with 250ish HP. Suppose they are meant to be an elite unit after all, not a bunch of beefed-up mooks like the Liu.

Suppose one could also compare Yujin to Xiao in terms of strenght. And the latter could certainly clash with said blue boi and be somewhat of a threat. Close enough for me anyway. And not all Colours where prime combatants like the Red Mist, so who knows. But i guess we'll need to see more of the other Colours first to be for sure.

Oh well, PM would do well to make some changes like the ones i mentioned. Healing's a tad underpowered, with only Firm as a Great Mountain and Health Hauler being any good for units besides Yujin, due to the punishingly low global healing cap these passives carry.
Wonder if we'll even get a update this year though... Hm...

[Flygoniaks]

Originally posted by CarThief:

I dunno, blue boi was like what, 500HP? If that's any standard to work on, Yujin got pretty close with 250ish HP. Suppose they are meant to be an elite unit after all, not a bunch of beefed-up mooks like the Liu.

Suppose one could also compare Yujin to Xiao in terms of strenght. And the latter could certainly clash with said blue boi and be somewhat of a threat. Close enough for me anyway. And not all Colours where prime combatants like the Red Mist, so who knows. But i guess we'll need to see more of the other Colours first to be for sure.

Oh well, PM would do well to make some changes like the ones i mentioned. Healing's a tad underpowered, with only Firm as a Great Mountain and Health Hauler being any good for units besides Yujin, due to the punishingly low global healing cap these passives carry.
Wonder if we'll even get a update this year though... Hm...

Sorry you misunderstood what I meant there. I was implying that the massive max HP values of the Shi units never made sense to begin with given where they are in the City's "tier list."

As for an update, I'm actually expecting one tomorrow, even if it's Christmas. They haven't announced any plans for a break on their Twitter, though I won't be mad if there is one. I don't think this update will address anything with the Shi, naturally; I doubt they've seen this.