Deck Building Analysis

[Hank]

I want to start this discussion to gather more of the communities opinion as well as find a conclusion to my thoughts. Note this is not a bashing of the game. I love the game and the updates have been nothing but stellar, and I can't wait to see it to the end. I'll try to be concise as possible and as such there will be thoughts I'll leave out to keep it as brief as possible. So be warned I will be talking about any part of the game, and as such this is your SPOILER warning.

I've been trying to diversify my deck builds, but ultimately these are the ones I think are a tier above the others:

(Two Speed Dice, Meow)
x 3 The Red Notes, x 3 Unforgettable Melody
*All four characters use this deck.

(Two Speed Dice, Sayo)
x 3 Desperate Struggle, x 3 Sharpened Blade

(Two Speed Dice, A Puppet 2)
x 3 Opportunity Spotted, x 3 Wrath of Torment, x 3 Observe

(Shi Association)
x 3 Faint Memories, To Overcome Crisis, Endless Battle

If you haven't noticed the common denominator yet, it's strength/power stacking.

There are many decks that I've noted people talking about such as Olga - Daring Decision, Brawl, 3 Cost - Draw - Lies, etc... All of these decks suffer from one thing:

Low Roll.

A good example is Daring Decision can still roll a 4 or 3 on any of those rolls due to the RNG nature of the game. However strength stacking removes a large chunk of RNG allowing you to often beat over the AI's perfect passive decks.

Defense/Other Decks.

Defensive/Support Decks are in my opinion too weak. The best offense is the best defense in this scenario.
A defense roll can NEGATE ENEMY DAMAGE and STAGGER AN OPPONENT
A evade roll can NEGATE ENEMY DAMAGE and aid your STAGGER HP.
An Offense roll can NEGATE ENEMY DAMAGE, STAGGER AN OPPONENT, and protect your STAGGER HP not to mention killing and staggering an opponent for light.
(Yeah I worded that in my favor, I know evade allows you to regen Stagger).

So that's my opinion on my deck building gripe. Not sure if I'm spoiled by strength stacking or jaded from hours of trying to diversify my decks, but there it is. Would love to hear thoughts and opinions on this matter. Thanks.

[Shbnfc]

I'd give it time, there's lots of stuff yet to be implemented like the optional general receptions and maybe counter dice will be added to old cards at some point. I had no trouble using trusty old Walter page to tank my way through a single floor deathless clear of the most recent puppet encounter, so I say defensive decks are alright, maybe not the strongest but not particularly weak either.

[snek]

The problem I can spot in some of those decks is that they'll struggle with sustain in both light gen and maintaining your hand, in more drawn out or higher pressure fights (Tomerry or Shi Act 2) this can lead to you having dead hands.
For my Yujin I've been getting a lot done with 3x Overcome Crisis, 3x Faint Memories, 2x Sparking Spear and Boundary of Death as a little trump card. Faint Memories is ridiculous on Yujin thanks to that 5-11 evade roll and my Yujin consistently facetanks heavy hitters and wins especially now that Gluttony gives them even more sustain.
The main thing you get from a Sayo deck is the crazy amount of bleed it can pile up in short notice.
Personally in fights I use my first dice as my main attack and my second dice for utility purposes (playing a light gen card, or a draw card) to ensure I can sustain in a more drawn-out fight.

[Hank]

Originally posted by snek:

The problem I can spot in some of those decks is that they'll struggle with sustain in both light gen and maintaining your hand, in more drawn out or higher pressure fights (Tomerry or Shi Act 2) this can lead to you having dead hands.

Well that's why I left 3 slots open which I usually fill with draw/light gen cards. I will say the Observe into Wrath of Torment/Opportunity Spotted does lead to dead hands usually on turn 3 but it hits so hard the enemy should be dead on turn 3. I mean the perfect example is the Tomerry and the Shi Act 2 fight as I can kill Tomerry before turn 3, and Shi Act 2 Fight usually is down to 2 members turn 3.

Originally posted by snek:

For my Yujin I've been getting a lot done with 3x Overcome Crisis, 3x Faint Memories, 2x Sparking Spear and Boundary of Death as a little trump card. Faint Memories is ridiculous on Yujin thanks to that 5-11 evade roll and my Yujin consistently facetanks heavy hitters and wins especially now that Gluttony gives them even more sustain.

As listed above I agree; the reason why I didn't have number of cards to the Shi Association decks I mentioned was for preference. And I left some slots open again for preference of more light regen or draw power.

Edit: I will note the point of strength decks is not to drag out fights, but to end them quickly or cripple the enemy to the point where if the fight drags out it becomes a 4 versus 2 scenario.

Also to hammer home the point and beat a dead horse: This is Shi Act 2 Fight Scene 3
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1335831000030394158/0C89A1F77F88FED4D27D7DA1255B8D6D13D0D904/

[CarThief]

Well, deckbuilding definitely is leaning towards high-rolling agression nowadays. Not many good defence cards out there that don't put you in notable risk when counter-attacking.
Perhaps sooner or later we'll get more interesting defence cards, perhaps cards with DEF>DEF>Counter or the likes?

Edit: Some cards with a counter-defence would be neat too, to keep it at the ready for additional attackers instead of using it up as a regular defence roll mid-clash.
Oh, counter-based cards should be very interesting either way when we get more encounters using them...

My own decks rely a lot on agression too, i suppose...

Geon Mi: Brawl(3) x3, D. Decision(3) x3, Scratch That(3) x1, Puppet Blockade(0) x2.
Meow/Puppet pg. 2/Mars: Collission(3) x3, Wrath of Torment(3) x1, Creak(2) x1, Gigigig(1) x1.
Sayo: Clean Up(1) x2, Puppet Blockade(0) x2, Beyond the Shadows(2) x2, Collission(3) x3.
Olga: Collission(3) x3, D. Decision(3) x2, Puppet Blockade(0) x3, Gigigig(1) x1.
Salvador: Crack of Dawn(3) x1, Collission(3) x3, Puppet Blockade(0) x3, Searing Sword(2) x2.
Oscar: Collission(3) x3, Transpierce(3) x1, Sparking Spear(2) x1, Gigigig(1) x1, Puppet Blockade(0) x3.
Yujin: To Overcome Crisis(0) x2, Puppet Blockade(0) x2, Collission(3) x3, Tailoring(4) x2.
Tenma: Puppet Blockade(0) x3, Gigigig(1), x1, Wrath of Torment(3) x2, Collission(3) x3.
Shi Association Fixer: Gigigig(1) x3, Endless Battle(2) x3, Collission(3) x3.
Valentin: To Overcome Crisis(0) x3, Rules of the Backstreet(0) x1, Extreme Edge(2) x2, Binding Arms(3) x1, Collission(3) x2.

I think the pattern is obvious; that i thoroughly abuse Collission to win atleast one clash with a 4-8 roll, and follow it up with a light-regen card so next turn i'm up to 3 (or more) light again.
So far i haven't found anything better, it just wins clashes and deals fairly big damage while keeping light high. Sometimes alternating with a 2-cost card and a regen card.

[Hank]

Originally posted by CarThief:

Well, deckbuilding definitely is leaning towards high-rolling agression nowadays. Not many good defence cards out there that don't put you in notable risk when counter-attacking.
Perhaps sooner or later we'll get more interesting defence cards, perhaps cards with DEF>DEF>Counter or the likes?

Honestly the more I think about it the more I wish they made Philips Shield Mode an equip page we can get. I'm NOT saying I want this equip page I want a weaker version where if the enemy attacks your character you inflict one paralysis, feeble or heck even damage back like a Porcupine when blocking (AND NO DON'T ADD THAT POINTLESS PASSIVE MEOW HAS WHERE IT CAN ONLY PROC ONCE PER SCENE). It would allow defensive characters to inflict a small degree of damage which helps their teams out while also being defensive. Or In the case of paralysis spreading so that your team can clash better.

I somewhat dislike Collision, my Korean friend loves the card and she uses it in alot of her decks. I just can't, there's a chance of you rolling a 4 or heck just lower than your opponent means you spent 3 light got hit and didn't gain light back.

[CarThief]

Perhaps they'll make special defence cards? Something like:
Special-Defence ?-?. If attacked: Inflict X [debuff] to attacker. (These "special-defence" dice persist until the end of the round and will attempt to block any dice.)

Or adding "If attacked: Inflict X [debuff]" to regular defence dice, instead of stuff like Feather Shield's "On Clash Win:" effect, since you don't always win a clash, especially not with defence.
Heck, often the whole point of defence is to soften a blow you cannot hope to stop in a clash.

And personally i use stuff like Collission because i wish to avoid too much bad RNG, it will atleast roll a 4, and has a very high chance of rolling higher, which is why i mainly use it. It can consistently win a clash, you just have to pick wisely sometimes who you collide- er, clash with.
Beats the many 3-7 rolls cards have, even some of the 3-cost puppet cards have failed me in clashes, so a 4-8 seems pretty reliable to me. Edit: And the enemy often has downtime and plays 1-2 cost cards, which are easy to win if you use Collission on them, which in turn may kill or stagger them and well, yeah...

Granted, it has nothing on Wrath of Torment or Brawl for raw damage, but it's been keeping the DPS high since light remains available in high amounts, whereas Wrath would give you a turn of downtime most likely (the 7HP cost adds up fast, too).

[Hank]

Oh no I agree Wrath decks have a considerable downtime, but odds are the opponent is staggered or dead by the time you have the downtime. Plus I mainly use Wrath deck on Yesods Floor who has alot of abnormality pages that assist in removing that downtime. (Repetitive Pattern Recognition, Charge) In addition Yesods Abnormality pages can turn the damage up to an 11 with Music and Chained Wrath. Opportunity Spotted is a 1-2, 1-2, 1-2 but can swing for 24 with those abnormality pages.

Edit: My bad 26
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1335831000030816390/0541B4BAC3A937CD9D3B5F723F7414A430678536/

Again I've heard good things from Collission but my issue with it is simply the lowest number 4 is too low. Compare that to Red Notes team where a character can gain 3-8 strength from their allies turning the card Red Notes 1-5, 1-4 1 Light Cost into a 6-10, 6-9 1 Cost that also buffs other teammates. See the problem is I guess I've been so jaded by the number of times the AI best me in a 4-8 vs 3-7 that I just think any number below 7 is weak.

[Yhune]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2164267627
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2164267770
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2164267913
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2164268017
Here's my kether team, when I deck build I usually think about combos between key pages-combat pages or abnos.
For example: Roland with yujin has those cards because of lies, which might give him 2+ costs pretty much for free.
Valentin librarian with those because of aspiration, which means that she can hit over 10+ dices with sharpen and 7+ speed card also because of leftover dice might get the +2 power buff,
Which means that she might get a 6~9 dodge or 6~7 block.
Meow librarian is a buffer and puppet debuffs and buffs.

I might want to get paralyze because of the absurd max dice ranges that enemies have now.

But that's the idea in general, look at your abnos and key pages and try to combo them to have absurd results.

One combo that I can give which is kind of op right now, is roland with yujin, lies and full of draws like sparkling spear or the 3 costs draws and for the cherry on top, ink over.

[Hank]

@Yhune

Hey Yhune I did test out the combo in your comment posted in the new invitiation puppet discussion. I got unlucky and didn't roll into Lies repeatedly, and just gave up on the strategy, but that's just my crummy luck. Also the speed thing is something I'm testing right now will tell how I feel about it once I got more time with it.

As for my Floor of General Works. I run x3 Red Notes and x3 Unforgettable Memories and nab Pulsation for that extra +1-2 Strength. Nothing hurts more than a 3-5, 2-6 becoming a 11-13, 10-14.

[Yhune]

Originally posted by Hank:

@Yhune

Hey Yhune I did test out the combo in your comment posted in the new invitiation puppet discussion. I got unlucky and didn't roll into Lies repeatedly, and just gave up on the strategy, but that's just my crummy luck. Also the speed thing is something I'm testing right now will tell how I feel about it once I got more time with it.

As for my Floor of General Works. I run x3 Red Notes and x3 Unforgettable Memories and nab Pulsation for that extra +1-2 Strength. Nothing hurts more than a 3-5, 2-6 becoming a 11-13, 10-14.

I prefer tendon chords rather than unforgettable melody, because if you hit tendon then next scene follow with red notes, you might end with more strength.

Also not a fan of pulsation, I usually end up losing a lot of health because of a unlucky roll that didn't finish an enemy and the act which means that other 3 librarians will end up losing 20% hp.

But that seems a pretty nice strategy in general, though seems that it might be more efective in 1 act battles, otherwise you might have the same problem I have with pulsation lol.

[Hank]

Originally posted by Yhune:

Also not a fan of pulsation, I usually end up losing a lot of health because of a unlucky roll that didn't finish an enemy and the act which means that other 3 librarians will end up losing 20% hp.

But that seems a pretty nice strategy in general, though seems that it might be more efective in 1 act battles, otherwise you might have the same problem I have with pulsation lol.

Yeah it does mess me over at times, but the strategy is powerful enough to muscle through alot of fights with Pulsation hampering them at times.
Keter Floor Puppet Fight All 3 Acts:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1335830850554308426/9EFC07FD41D602BE2C97EFAF02A2FD85AB8FEACC/
Health at the End:
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1335831000030916342/C393C60011FAEA91C24938A8FEA5EB1B1BB08BCC/

3 Act Fight 1 Floor No Problems

Edit: If Tendon Chords was a 1 Cost I would happily swap it over, but Right now Double Melody hits so hard with a nice block in between.

[snek]

It is indeed nice to have a build that completely shreds through enemies within a couple of turns, though personally I think it's best to find a build that is obviously stronger than the enemy, but not strong enough to completely smash them, that way you can push up emotion level for more books (which is good for page/card farming).
For me I can do both Shi acts deathless on a single floor though the deathless part is mostly down to luck, 1-floor is 100% consistent though thanks to Yujin being a crazy sustainable page.
I tend to use Malkuth's floor especially now that Gluttony is really good, though mind you there are probably more optimal floors for my death squad consisting of Oscar, Salvador, Yujin and Sayo.

[bgammax]

The funny thing to note is that there are already defensive cards that have countering effects, like "Your Shield" which starts with a block that does damage on a clash win, or "Zzap" which brings two block die that will cause paralysis when a clash is one, so its not like there aren't any payoffs.

Personally, I like to build my floors around thematics rather than making them particularly synergetic.


For example, since Yesod wanted to stop people from dying, I gave him a defensive-focus with Walter while turning their floor into a "Fixer floor" with a traditional spear and shield strategy


1. Yesod on Walter: 1x Puppet Blockade, 2x Taste My Flaming Bat, 2x Silent Night, 2x Flash of Sunup (because there are few cards that draw and block) and lastly 2x Combat Preparation

2. Mars, though the list of replacement books are long: 2x Puppet Blockade, 2x Silent Night, 2x Flash of Sunup, 1x Zzzap, 2x Automated Movement.

These two act as tanks while building up a good amount of endurance on themselves so they can intercept attacks aimed at the two DPSes. Their goal is to drag out a fight to raise the opponent's emotion level (and thus the reward for beating them) while minimizing damage taken and allowing the two DPSes to take out anyone whose books you don't want.
Silent Night is a weak card overall, but it is extremely efficient endurance generation which allows you to chain them together more effectively.
Flaming Bat, on the other hand, feels like a bit of a sleeper. It starts with a block die to guarantee eating an opponent's defensive die, followed by a fairly high evade that will enhance the finishing attack for every attack it eats.

3. Oscar: 3x High-Speed Stabbing, 2x You're a Hindrance, 1x Zzzap, 2x Sparking Spear, 1x Collision

Oscar focuses solely on piercing damage. He has some utility thanks to incidental paralysis caused by Hindrance and Zzzap, a byproduct of the lack of playable pure-pierce cards. Oscar's job is simply to make one-sided attacks against some of the more threatening targets to gain a numbers advantage more quickly. Since your tanks won't always roll higher speed die than your opponents, holding onto the 1 of Zzzap allows him to take advantage of some of the endurance generation if you need him to clash, while Collision lets you take advantage of weaker attacks aimed at him.

4. Salvador: 3x To Overcome Crisis, 2x Guardian, 3x Sunlight Sword, 1x Searing Sword.

Salvador's role is purely that of DPS, looking to take advantage of his increased stagger damage to disable a target as soon as possible. He comes with a pair of Guardians to give a support option for the tanks, and Sunlight Sword is opted in numbers over Searing Sword because they result in the same amount of burn, but hitting the target more times allows Sunlight Sword to take better advantage of Salvador's passive.


A build like this is a bit clunky, but it uses the same principles as a strength build, to rapidly build up incredible numbers, and applies them to set up different roles within a team. Since defensive die don't really end a fight any faster, they have to be supplemented by DPS setups, but if you do they can consistently nullify opposing turns and leave them open to a proper attack.

[Hank]

@Snek and @bgammax
I prefer the method of hours over efficiency, but your method is most definatiely better than mines.

Since I build teams that can murder in a blink of an eye I just murder 10x more. It's why while I never drag out battles I have over 100+ of each book and 600+ of easier to obtain books because well... you can win one long drag out battle for better rewards or 10 2 minute battles with garbage rewards. I prefer the latter cause... um... *Shrug*

Edit: Also @bgammax
I do like the idea of building teams/decks based on the character, but I still can't get over the fact that everyone regrets killing off all those employees in lobotomy corp. YET THEY COMPLAINED ABOUT HOW CRUDDY OF A MANAGER I WAS. Regret my butt you just blamed Ayin!

[The funny thing to note is that there are already defensive cards that have countering effects, like "Your Shield" which starts with a block that does damage on a clash win, or "Zzap" which brings two block die that will cause paralysis when a clash is one, so its not like there aren't any payoffs.]

Like CarThief already pointed out those require you to clash AND WIN I want on hit not clash; as right now it's too inconsistent to keep the entire enemy team paralyzed I mean look at how weak Gaze is.

Ok just wanted to see if I can do it, and with plenty of Hp to spare wonder if I could have taken another floor or 2.
Shi Association Fight: Keter Floor Deathless
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1335831000031094895/3722DF2BAD30ECEEF8FFAE7626102A9C3DF132B2/
https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1335831000031098289/71EE94B8C94131EDBAFA842B372B6F231CA1158B/

[BladeSaint]

Those decks are indeed pretty powerful and well-rounded, although I'd say there are also more cool builds you can try. Collision decks are very good around characters with no built in light regen. Sparking spear decks are really good around characters like yujin and tenma

One of the most unethical and nasty floors I came up with used purely 4 characters with red notes in them. I'll let you guys think about which characters I used. It allowed me to do puppets all 3 floors with no deaths.

For the Shi Association you listed, I started with the same thing but soon came to realize there are other, more frightening builds that you can make around yujin and tenma in particular, creating some insanely nasty synergized decks.

The yujin I'd like to mention is a pure draw deck that utilizes the new objet d'art puppet page along with 1x of the other puppet draw page, 3x overcome crisis, 3x sparking spear, and an ink over. It's easy to fill your hand up since shi association can take advantage of overcome crisis.

I wouldn't say defensive decks are bad in any way, just that their use is limited. I still prefer to take one tank that has defensive cards to take agro for my other 3 dps. Plus I'm 100% certain that Hod's 'shyness' abnormality card is bugged and is giving my walter 18 block rolls on feather shield when it shouldn't be even near that much, and that can be taken advantage of.