Logic flaws

[DAN-di-WARhol]

I just picked this up. And as a huuuge Portal fan, I'm afraid I am a little frustrated. The logic doesn't work.

Why can I take a cube only one way through the portal?

Why can I put the cube down, and yet when I pick it back up the other cube disapears?

None of this makes any sense at all. For a puzzle game to work it has to have a sequence of clearly defined rules (like portal). Those rules cannot shift about to fit the confines of the current problem, otherwise we end up blaming the game for our failings (rightly so) rather than ourselves.

I want to scratch my head, get to the end of a puzzle, solve it and think "Ah, why didn't I think of that!" rather than "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game!!"

[Kamikater]

This is explained in the game if you just listen. There is a "present" and a "future" 20 years from now. For the future the present is "past". If you move a cube in the present, you change its destiny thus the future version of the cube is changed - it is now at the same location as in the present. On the other side (lol) when you move a cube in the future you CAN NOT CHANGE ITS PAST thus its present is unchanged - it won't disappear. This makes it possible to move a future-cube into the present, but not move a present-cube into the future. The same goes with portals: Shoot a blue portal in the present. Look into its 20-year future from now - it's there at the same spot. Change the blue portal in the future - this won't affect the portal in the present. Now change the blue portal in the present: The blue portal in the future is now at the same location as the present one. What you do will change the future. You cannot change history.

[DAN-di-WARhol]

Lol. I think you need to read some books about time travel mate. What you are saying about future and past has no logical or scientific basis at all. Is actually contradicting logic and science.

So why can I have two cubes in one time dimension until I pick one up? Surely if the problem is having two in one dimension it will be a problem whether I'm carrying it or not, unless I'm some kind of time-warping thing that shifts things into other dimensions just by touching them. And if that's the case, I don't need portals.

[Plastic]

game fun

[DeathHydra]

The game does have a clearly defined rules.

• There are two timelines, present and future, and you can freely move between these two timelines.
  
• Altering things that are originally in the present will change the future.
  
• Altering the future does not affect the present.

That's the basic gist of it. While I can kinda agree that the game explain it somewhat poorly, the rules should be clear after a couple of experiments.

I mean, it's just a fanmade mod made by 1 person. I don't think they try to be aligned with the actual time travel theory. (I'll even argue that time travel will never be done right in any game, but that's a separate matter)

[Kamikater]

Originally posted by DAN-di-WARhol:

Lol. I think you need to read some books about time travel mate. What you are saying about future and past has no logical or scientific basis at all. Is actually contradicting logic and science. [...]

This game is just not for you.

Originally posted by DeathHydra:

The game does have a clearly defined rules. [...]

Exactly. Thank you!

[InkiePie]

Other people have explained the situation brilliantly, but riddle me this: what would actually happen if a pair of cubes, one future, one present, were in the same room in the present? Would the future have 2 cubes in that case?

Sounds like fun being able to manipulate the tests by spawning infinite cubes, and removing them all with one poke of the original.

[Pheex]

The game does contradict causality in the most basic form though

-present. you are in a room with 1 cube.
-portal to future. you are in future room with 1 cube.
-pick up cube. bring back to present.
-you are in a room in the present with 2 cubes.
-you create a new portal to the future.
-this future following basic causality would lead to a new divergent timeline with 2 cubes.
-instead you come back to a timeline future which cannot exist. 2 cubes in the present are vanished in the future. the room is empty even when in the past there were 2 cubes that have not been altered.
-this implies both the present and future exist at the same time and not following causality which breaks physics even physics that allows backwards timetravel.

[Car 👻]

exponentially spawning infinite cubes would make less sense because where would you get more than 2 cubes in only 2 time frames

[Pheex]

there are not just two time frames.

the moment you take a cube from the future to the present, a new future for the present is created and a new time line emerges. from this moment on creating a new portal to the future would stem from the situation in the present, i.e. there being 2 cubes in the present means there will be 2 cubes in the future. take those two back to the present and you have 4 cubes. make a new portal to the future and there will be 4 cubes there.

[128MB]

iv been staring at this game for hours now and i cant figure out how to do anything im that dumb

[PNB]

Originally posted by Pheex:

there are not just two time frames.

the moment you take a cube from the future to the present, a new future for the present is created and a new time line emerges. from this moment on creating a new portal to the future would stem from the situation in the present, i.e. there being 2 cubes in the present means there will be 2 cubes in the future. take those two back to the present and you have 4 cubes. make a new portal to the future and there will be 4 cubes there.

I cannot see the logical sense in any of that. How could one possibly take something from the future, that was not already in the present, and bring it to the present? That is precisely why we cannot travel backwards in time - only forward. We can't go back and change the past. It's the whole ''go back and kill your grandfather'' thing. You wouldn't be born to go back and kill him. The game makes no sense to me at all, and I am a portal fan.

[Pheex]

Originally posted by PNB:

Originally posted by Pheex:

there are not just two time frames.

the moment you take a cube from the future to the present, a new future for the present is created and a new time line emerges. from this moment on creating a new portal to the future would stem from the situation in the present, i.e. there being 2 cubes in the present means there will be 2 cubes in the future. take those two back to the present and you have 4 cubes. make a new portal to the future and there will be 4 cubes there.

I cannot see the logical sense in any of that. How could one possibly take something from the future, that was not already in the present, and bring it to the present? That is precisely why we cannot travel backwards in time - only forward. We can't go back and change the past. It's the whole ''go back and kill your grandfather'' thing. You wouldn't be born to go back and kill him. The game makes no sense to me at all, and I am a portal fan.

the core concept of this mod is built around altering the past, as you travel between the future and the past, and you can bring the cube and yourself from the future back to the present (which is considered the past from the future point of reference.)

the only way backwards timetravel would be possible is, after altering the past, a new timeline emerges and splits off.

the moment you alter the present after going to the future (bringing back the box), that 'old' future could not exist without a paradox, hence a new timeline would have to emerge to account for the 'new' future from the altered present.

if backwards timetravel is possible; there are two possibilities.

1) when you go back in time and kill your parents, a paradox is created and the universe hardcrashes / you blink out of existence

2) when you go back in time and kill your parents, a duplicate timeline emerges with a new, altered future, future B if you will. in universe B, a you-B will never be born. the you that exists in future B is you-A. you-A disappears from universe A the moment you traveled back in time from future A. future A and B exist simultaneously but as completely seperate slices of reality.

Now what this game does is mix both together. the moment a portal is created to the future, in this game, the boxes from present and future exist simultaneously, not in a causality plausible form, as no divergent timeline is created nor a paradox is created.

videogame logic, really

[PNB]

Originally posted by DAN-di-WARhol:

I just picked this up. And as a huuuge Portal fan, I'm afraid I am a little frustrated. The logic doesn't work.

Why can I take a cube only one way through the portal?

Why can I put the cube down, and yet when I pick it back up the other cube disapears?

None of this makes any sense at all. For a puzzle game to work it has to have a sequence of clearly defined rules (like portal). Those rules cannot shift about to fit the confines of the current problem, otherwise we end up blaming the game for our failings (rightly so) rather than ourselves.

I want to scratch my head, get to the end of a puzzle, solve it and think "Ah, why didn't I think of that!" rather than "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game!!"

This is exactly how I would describe my experience with this game so far.
I stumbled my way through a few levels, but just lucking out mostly.
I've all but given up, or at least I've put it on the shelf for now...too frustrating for me.

[PNB]

Originally posted by Pheex:

Originally posted by PNB:

I cannot see the logical sense in any of that. How could one possibly take something from the future, that was not already in the present, and bring it to the present? That is precisely why we cannot travel backwards in time - only forward. We can't go back and change the past. It's the whole ''go back and kill your grandfather'' thing. You wouldn't be born to go back and kill him. The game makes no sense to me at all, and I am a portal fan.

the core concept of this mod is built around altering the past, as you travel between the future and the past, and you can bring the cube and yourself from the future back to the present (which is considered the past from the future point of reference.)

the only way backwards timetravel would be possible is, after altering the past, a new timeline emerges and splits off.

the moment you alter the present after going to the future (bringing back the box), that 'old' future could not exist without a paradox, hence a new timeline would have to emerge to account for the 'new' future from the altered present.

if backwards timetravel is possible; there are two possibilities.

1) when you go back in time and kill your parents, a paradox is created and the universe hardcrashes / you blink out of existence

2) when you go back in time and kill your parents, a duplicate timeline emerges with a new, altered future, future B if you will. in universe B, a you-B will never be born. the you that exists in future B is you-A. you-A disappears from universe A the moment you traveled back in time from future A. future A and B exist simultaneously but as completely seperate slices of reality.

Now what this game does is mix both together. the moment a portal is created to the future, in this game, the boxes from present and future exist simultaneously, not in a causality plausible form, as no divergent timeline is created nor a paradox is created.

videogame logic, really

I get vertigo just thinking about all the possible paradoxes. Thanks for your explanation. I will eventually get back to this game, but for now I'm in agreement with the OP. I remain a Portal fan - this one just has my 60+ brain stumped.
"If something stumps you, examine your assumptions."
-someone famous said recently-

[|DFG| Butterbrot_T5]

Originally posted by Kamikater:

What you do will change the future. You cannot change history.

The game does allow to changng the history (present) - by bringing a cube from the future to the histrory and e.g. open doors there in the history (present).

That's part of the confusing/actually potentially paradox causing time travel setup of the game.