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It's a shame that they got such a downgrade from the DS3 version otherwise, tho. The hyperarmor and the much better forwards momentum on the first light attack, coupled with the guarunteed R1 -> R1 combo and high stamina damage, made them excellent weapons for dealing with sword and board players/neutralizing GS and CGS poise advantages on a shoestring weight budget. Now, they're largely just inferior to Greatswords in most aspects.