They ruined the Greatshield Talisman

[Broso]

Let's be real here. The only reason for using up an entire talisman slot for that talisman was to be able to enable ultimate tank mode with Fingerprint Stone Shield. The difference between having it on and not having it on now is ridiculously small, negligible even, may just as well not use a shield anymore.

I don't know if they did this for PvP, but if so, then PvE got ♥♥♥♥♥♥ by this unreasonably hard. Why even have shields if they don't shield you? Just leave them out of the game next time, FFS.


Edit (to answer certain replies):

It was not needed in PvE at all. You still had to have high enough stats to even carry it since it is very heavy and you had to use one talisman slot.

Maybe having 100% guard boost was too much but now it barely does anything in addition to what the shield does anyway and I tested it against some enemies I use for benchmarking purposes and you take too ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ much stamina damage, this is ridiculous. Why should I even use such a heavy shield now? It's nonsense.

They did ♥♥♥♥ about Bloodhound's Step but they ruin this? Why?

There are also plenty attacks that come from overhead, for example the drop attack the big hands do, that a shield even at 100% guard boost will not just magically block for you. And shields also do ♥♥♥♥ against grab attacks so no, it was not god mode it was not easy mode it was just an alternate playstyle which is a lot less viable now.

[Boon: Bong Rip]

Publicado originalmente por gh0stwizard:

Publicado originalmente por Boon: Bong Rip:

The entire point of fingerprint + the talisman was 100% block rate and no stam drain unless the attack drained all your stamina at once. If anything that just shows you weren't using it correctly lmao

This ♥♥♥♥ should be nerfed. BHS has counter patterns, wallshield + talisman does not. Because a blocker may guard and rotating automatically. AND USE THE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ SPEAR IN THE TIME

... My man did you read the recent patch notes? It has been changed and subsequently nerfed lmao

People will still be able to achieve the same effect with magic tho

[Farkus]

Publicado originalmente por gh0stwizard:

Publicado originalmente por Boon: Bong Rip:

The entire point of fingerprint + the talisman was 100% block rate and no stam drain unless the attack drained all your stamina at once. If anything that just shows you weren't using it correctly lmao

This ♥♥♥♥ should be nerfed. BHS has counter patterns, wallshield + talisman does not. Because a blocker may guard and rotating automatically. AND USE THE ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ SPEAR IN THE TIME

Good news, both the talisman and madness were nerfed.

[Grampire]

Publicado originalmente por ManchurianRobloxPlayer:

I'm sorry the revelation that you will actually have to play the game now is a bit much for you. Rolling has always been the better option anyway, and actually should be always.

Yeah, no.

Rolling being the forced band-aid cure-all rhythm mini-game that every encounter is based on is stupid and homogenizes the feel of fights. It gets tiring, looks stupid and feels bad.


The fact that From offered a viable alternative is a good thing for a lot of reasons and will appeal to players who aren't convinced of how amazing a first-grade gymnastics maneuver is at evading enemy attacks.

To get to 100 guard rating and stability you have to commit to the build in terms of a huge STR, END and equipment/talisman investment in order for it to work, and the payout should match that. And honestly as much as I parade how well it works it still isn't an "I win" setup - it just reduces the need to roll to almost nothing, which is great.

I haven't tested this yet, but if they've truly gimped it as hard as it sounds then my foray into From Software likely ends with my NG+ run to tie out my achievements.

[Pyro Penguin]

git gud, learn to play without a crutch, the nerf was well deserved

[Baron01]

I saw Greatshield Talisman being mentioned in patch notes but it was in connection with high guard boost weapons not shields. Originally the talisman provided 1.1 multiplier to your guard boost. This was only relevant for shield with default high values since that 1.1 multiplier provides tiny benefit for low guard boost shields anyway. If they reduce effectiveness of the multiplier at high levels, they effectively killed the talisman as it is redundant now.

I was only using Greatshield talisman with Fingerprint Shield in rare occasions where heavy physical damage was to be expected or in duo boss fights. I was not using it in general gameplay and it seems I will premanently replace it by Green Turtle Talisman.

[Grampire]

Publicado originalmente por Scoobydoo wr r u:

Publicado originalmente por 2tasty2placebo:

pretty sure the shields count as "weapons" since the patch notes are vague and translated from Japanese.

The nerf supposedly only effect great shields with above a certain amount of guard boost, since those great shields were already powerful enough as is, and the fingerprint shield had 100% guard boost so you could block infinitely which was broken.

It did not have 100% guard boost. It has an 81 point stat guard boost at maximum level. It is a measurement of how much relative stamina is drained per blocked attack. Stamina drains & you do receive stun & damage once it is out. You also received chip damage for appropriate attacks. Just like any other shield.

Seeing as the Eagle heater shield weights only 3.5, has like 58 Guard Boost leveled up with only a level 12 or so strength requirement, while also having 100% physical damage negation just like the fingerprint shield; it's kind of insane to nerf a talismans effectiveness on a shield that only has 24 or so more guard boost points from an early game shield while it also requires 30 weight & 48 strength to wield. You have to dump approx 58 levels into END & STR to use the fingerprint shield.

This, they essentially removed any reason for using fingerprint shield now, especially since there are likely going to be comparable options that allow you to parry as well.

Fingerprint caps at 90 guard boost with Talisman equipped. Will it still work? Sure, but it's junk now compared to alternatives that won't have the requirements for use.

[Boon: Bong Rip]

Publicado originalmente por Grampire:

Publicado originalmente por ManchurianRobloxPlayer:

I'm sorry the revelation that you will actually have to play the game now is a bit much for you. Rolling has always been the better option anyway, and actually should be always.

Yeah, no.

Rolling being the forced band-aid cure-all rhythm mini-game that every encounter is based on is stupid and homogenizes the feel of fights. It gets tiring, looks stupid and feels bad.


The fact that From offered a viable alternative is a good thing for a lot of reasons and will appeal to players who aren't convinced of how amazing a first-grade gymnastics maneuver is at evading enemy attacks.

To get to 100 guard rating and stability you have to commit to the build in terms of a huge STR, END and equipment/talisman investment in order for it to work, and the payout should match that. And honestly as much as I parade how well it works it still isn't an "I win" setup - it just reduces the need to roll to almost nothing, which is great.

I haven't tested this yet, but if they've truly gimped it as hard as it sounds then my foray into From Software likely ends with my NG+ run to tie out my achievements.

90 Stability is still god tier and shields are very good even when they're not 100% stable. The only big thing is people with shields mindlessly block all attacks instead of using it to clean up badly timed rolls or prevent real high damage attacks from connecting fully.

Just learn to play, roll occassionally and use the shield with some intelligence behind what to dodge and what to block and you'll still have a breeze since the shield is still viable.

[Baron01]

Publicado originalmente por Grampire:

...

To get to 100 guard rating and stability you have to commit to the build in terms of a huge STR, END and equipment/talisman investment in order for it to work, and the payout should match that.

...

Just to be technically correct, you never had 100% reduction to stamina cost of blocking. Fingerprint Shield + Greatshield talisman got you to 99% so every block cost 1 stamina.

I can confirm that post 1.04 effectiveness of this combo is significantly reduced as I was just fightning Black Blade Kindred in Forbidden Lands on NG+1 and oit was able to drop my stamina to half when I blocked his full twinblade combo. I did not know about the change so I was confused by my stamina usage but I attributed it to attacking after blocks and some rolling. I will do some more testing later.

[Malfeasance]

Publicado originalmente por Farkus:

You're still going have incredible blocking potential on large shields and smaller shields seem to be unaffected. As for the 100 stability fingerprint stone shield, this was needed. It was absolute cancer in PVP and basically played the game for you in PVE.

Bingo. I find it funny (in a sad way) how people in the Souls community always immediately overreact when in reality the things they complain about won't affect much. Even completely without the talisman, the Fingerprint Shield still has what, 89 stability? I wasn't even using the Visage Shield let alone the Fingerprint shield for quite a few endgame bosses and had no issues on my first playthrough.

[BiscuitTheCat]

Shield? Seek skill

[Maxx_Crowley]

FromSoft has always had some sort of legit grudge against Defensive options. I remember Dark Souls 1 where they immediately killed Iron Flesh, and Great magic shield, before I had even found them. Not content with that, they also had to screw with the Eagle Shield just to be ♥♥♥♥♥.

Be that blocking or tanking. Just look at how many worthless shields are in the game. 99% Of every shield I've found, including a greatshield or two, doesn't even block 100% physical. Meaning unless its got some other block stat for one very specific fight, it's just trash.

I had literally just found my first 100% block shield, the turtle shield, after being stuck with crap for hours. Closed the game for the night, didn't get to play for a few weeks, booted the game back up...nerfed into uselessness.

In my 3 characters of the game now, I basically run the same equipment (Beast heater --> Jellyfish) because everything else sucks.

Couple with the PVP shriekers doing just that over blocking and poise, and you just have FromSoft constantly trying to tunnel you into their preferred playstyle.

They don't want you trying to block or tank or trade. They want you ninja flipping and flopping all over the battlefield, Shadowcat phasing through attacks. They went out of their way to mock the idea of defense in Bloodborne (Which actually didn't need shields because you could actually be rewarded for aggression....unlike Souls and Elden) I'm half convinced that's why ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ near every boss and powerful enemy oneshots you. My first character had well over 1000 HP, and I was actually stunned the first time a boss DIDN'T one shot me, doing merely 980 per hit.

I haven't run the set up you've mentioned, but I've flat out avoided the Ash of war that boosts shield and the shield boosting spell because I know they are just going to nerf them into uselessness the second I start having fun with it.

[Grampire]

Publicado originalmente por Boon: Bong Rip:

Publicado originalmente por Grampire:

Yeah, no.

Rolling being the forced band-aid cure-all rhythm mini-game that every encounter is based on is stupid and homogenizes the feel of fights. It gets tiring, looks stupid and feels bad.


The fact that From offered a viable alternative is a good thing for a lot of reasons and will appeal to players who aren't convinced of how amazing a first-grade gymnastics maneuver is at evading enemy attacks.

To get to 100 guard rating and stability you have to commit to the build in terms of a huge STR, END and equipment/talisman investment in order for it to work, and the payout should match that. And honestly as much as I parade how well it works it still isn't an "I win" setup - it just reduces the need to roll to almost nothing, which is great.

I haven't tested this yet, but if they've truly gimped it as hard as it sounds then my foray into From Software likely ends with my NG+ run to tie out my achievements.

90 Stability is still god tier and shields are very good even when they're not 100% stable. The only big thing is people with shields mindlessly block all attacks instead of using it to clean up badly timed rolls or prevent real high damage attacks from connecting fully.

Just learn to play, roll occassionally and use the shield with some intelligence behind what to dodge and what to block and you'll still have a breeze since the shield is still viable.

Rolling is not really much more difficult than blocking. It just creates burstier, less smooth damage intake.

The whole point of using this was making R1 pokes safe and applying constant mid-range damage. Now you have to commit more stamina to this, which reduces your damage throughput and openings to attack. If they're going to change it this way, most STR users are almost always going to be better off just rolling and using higher burst damage options.

It's still going to work, its just dragging the fight out even more for shield users because we'll have to do less damage and disengage more often.

[Baron01]

Publicado originalmente por Farkus:

...As for the 100 stability fingerprint stone shield, this was needed. It was absolute cancer in PVP and basically played the game for you in PVE.

You never had 100%, it was 99%.

I do not know about PvP, I avoid it like cancer but I can tell you did not play a shield character in PvE to any serious degree.

If you think that 99% stamina cost reduction was a automatic win button, you have very simplistic view of the world. Most of end-game fights require high mobility, feature heavy elemental damage and positioning that is simply not achievable if you turtle behind your shield and never let it down.

I'm not upset they removed 99% guard boost but I'm annoyed that another talisman is useless. Greatshield Talisman was effective for those who invested heavily into shield playstyle, ie. enough strength, endurance, to use Fingerprint shield because it allowed us to not use Barricade Shield skill. Anyone not using Fingerprint shield will not be forced to use Barricade Shield because end-game bosses can not be tanked without 90% guard boost. And now you are most likely not able to achieve this number with anything but Fingerprint Shield.

[Boon: Bong Rip]

Publicado originalmente por Grampire:

Publicado originalmente por Boon: Bong Rip:

90 Stability is still god tier and shields are very good even when they're not 100% stable. The only big thing is people with shields mindlessly block all attacks instead of using it to clean up badly timed rolls or prevent real high damage attacks from connecting fully.

Just learn to play, roll occassionally and use the shield with some intelligence behind what to dodge and what to block and you'll still have a breeze since the shield is still viable.

Rolling is not really much more difficult than blocking. It just creates burstier, less smooth damage intake.

The whole point of using this was making R1 pokes safe and applying constant mid-range damage. Now you have to commit more stamina to this, which reduces your damage throughput and openings to attack. If they're going to change it this way, most STR users are almost always going to be better off just rolling and using higher burst damage options.

It's still going to work, its just dragging the fight out even more for shield users because we'll have to do less damage and disengage more often.

Well no option in the game should be 100% safe, it defeats the purpose of how combat in a game should conceptually work.

There's suppose to be back and forth between the fighting parties until one prevails. Having consistent 1 shots, or total near invulnerable defense defeats the point and takes away heavily from the experience, not to mention creates a hellscape in PVP.

You should have difficulty fighting bosses, and have to attempt them multiple times as you learn. But having something that literally cannot be broken without direct boss damage trivializes so much of the game that it had to be changed, even if it was strictly PVE without regard for what it was doing in PVP

[Epstein's Assassin]

I'm a dedicated greatshield user and I still think this is fine. The difference between then and now is miniscule. You don't even really need a shield talisman for PvE when you're rocking the Visage or the Fingerprint shield.