What happened to our community?

[Krazy Wallet]

I got involved in Dark Souls 1 back in college. I had a friend who loved it but hadn't beaten the game despite having it for a year. He informed me that this was the hardest game he has ever played and allowed me to borrow it - dating myself when physical disks were still a thing!

I played the game, I died - a lot - and instantly fell in love with the genre. I eventually beat the game despite the setbacks, dying from titanite demons who could hit through walls, falling down elevators that don't reset to the first floor after you die, and getting sniped by Anor Londo archers (you all know what I'm talking about).

Through trial and error, death and hollowing, I persevered and beat the game. I had boss fights that I loved and those that I hated. But I went into NG+ as soon as NG was finished and I did it again. After NG+, I made a new character and tried different builds and poured hundreds of hours into this wonderful game. Eventually, my roommate got into it. I have so many fond memories of seeing him struggle in the same locations that I did, amazed as he defeated bosses that I found super difficult within his first few attempts, and chuckled when he would struggle through bosses that I breezed through.

These are our shared experiences. Even if they are not exactly the same, we all know the frustration of that "one" boss that grabbed us by the ankles, turned us upside down, shook us rapidly, and took all our lunch money that fell out of our pockets. Then, once done with us, kicked us between the legs for good measure. Despite being stuck on bosses for many hours, these are the most memorable moments of our journey. As we reminisce, others recall their victories over ridiculously hard bosses. This is what joins us together, what makes our community so special.

What happened? Why the toxicity over silly elements such as opt-in invasions, UX decisions, spirits and ashes? What happened to the super helpful community that wanted to discover every secret, fun niche builds, and jolly cooperation? Due to the growing popularity of the game, this is many people's first "souls" experience. There should be a myriad of stories about overcoming impossible odds, getting the killing blow on a boss by i-framing in a critical strike, and having 1hp and no flasks as you entered a zen state and annihilated the last 20% of a boss' health bar.

So, what are your stories in ER? I want to hear the best, epic moments of your journey. We are all struggling together, and that's what makes us better.

[Kain]

The game sold so many copies it became mainstream, the most common denominator of any group tends to be unintelligent and reactive. This game has a very large common denominator now.

Well, honestly I don't have any great story. I decided to explore Caelid in my first build and kinda ruined the intended difficulty progression and made everything even further past Lyendell a cakewalk, so I'm starting over and trying to make a build with evenly spread STR/DEX/INT/FTH , not because I think it will turn out to be powerful, but for challenge.

[Shard of Manus]

It hasn't changed, it's merely grown.

Demon's Souls was the start of the popularity of the series, but Dark Souls exploded an already niche and tight-knit community due to being multi-platform and more popular. Nonetheless, the game attracted a still niche audience and this inspires a certain degree of comradery. It was nonetheless plagued by the usual types you find on the internet, the unpleasant ones, the bitter ones, the ones that like to ruin everyone's time and or complain about every little minor gripe they have -- but for the most part it was a game picked up and tried by many, and those that stayed did so because they loved it. Some dropped it and never looked back.

People complained back then too, about difficulty, about the weird mechanics, or the clunky controls - and when it came to PC, about the cack-handed inputs and key commands. However, comparatively it was still a very small community (and admittedly PC gaming was more peaceful even just 10 years ago).

Over time the age demographic for gaming has been decreasing. It started with adults and young adults, and has over time expanded and expanded to include younger and younger generations and so game communities are as such filled with people of all ages and all maturities. Among those, the most audible are always the most bitter. People don't often express their admiration, joy or respect for things - but when people are unhappy about something they are very much inclined to vent about it and tell everyone else.

As Dark Souls has become more and more popular (and genre defining) to now being one of the most well-known franchises in modern gaming history (albeit all gaming history is technically modern)... the 'community' has grown and grown and grown. It's lost its niche. The unspoken comradery between people that like the same type of game has faded, as the genre has become so popular that it's like becoming friends with someone because you both like steak - you and 3 billion others.

Consequently, as the population has grown in the community, so has it come to include more and more people from varied walks of life, with varied opinions (on all things, yet especially about Dark Souls). Thus it is that the community itself divides and categorises itself into different portions - and between those categories there is malcontent (such as the invasion enthusiasts and haters, the co-op lovers and the solo-only theorists, the hardcore 'play the game the way it must be played' types and the casual 'I'm just having fun doing whatever' types. As more people become involved, these categories become fully fledged and defined cliques that spout everything they think on the forums and all leads to heated debate about what Dark Souls (and its siblings) should be - rather than people just appreciating the games for what the ARE.

The helpful, useful, and appreciable people are still out there. The ones that are loving the games, enjoying their time and trying to be good to others and helpful to those that need it still exist. However, they are drowned out by the noisy masses. People that take a meme that existed long before they ever were introduced to the series (git gud) and tout it incessantly with no manner or humour, people that don't even like the games and want everyone to know about it and why they should be made different, and those that argue about how things should be played based on their own preferences that accost anyone that thinks or plays differently.

This is the cost of popularity. When something involves so many people, it loses the magic. Imagine finding a remote little late night food bar that's tucked away. The food is great, the bartender/chef knows their drinks and accompanies the food perfectly, the ambience is great, and it's quiet - you hit it off with the bartender, and maybe meet a couple other regulars and enjoy your time there. You look forward to going there a couple nights a week just to wind down.

But word gets out that this place is fantastic. It gets popular, customers pile up, most nights it's busy, and inevitably there is always a loud table that just starts spoiling the night for everyone else there. People that used to love the place start to grow bitter at the ones 'spoiling it', they miss how it once was, and they no longer can enjoy it as much as a result - but the place is popular now, and nothing can be done about it.

Your only choice is to come to terms with the new way of things.

[Krazy Wallet]

Originally posted by Kain:

The game sold so many copies it became mainstream, the most common denominator of any group tends to be unintelligent and reactive. This game has a very large common denominator now.

Well, honestly I don't have any great story. I decided to explore Caelid in my first build and kinda ruined the intended difficulty progression and made everything even further past Lyendell a cakewalk, so I'm starting over and trying to make a build with evenly spread STR/DEX/INT/FTH , not because I think it will turn out to be powerful, but for challenge.

That's fair, but also sad. Not that there weren't always the "git gud" crowd, I definitely saw toxicity on the forums in other souls games. It just seems to be the default now and it makes me sad.

Yeah, it's easy to over-level in this game if you like to explore every nook and cranny. Even without grinding at all, I was around 110 when I first got to the capital. Your idea is a lot of fun, that's how I started out. With equipment load being tied to stamina again, I could carry great swords, claws, staff, and a bow with some armor while still being medium weight. My health suffered a good bit which was tough with getting one-shot but still a fun build. I could literally change my style to whatever weaknesses I saw with the boss I was facing. Hope you enjoy the new run

[Krazy Wallet]

Originally posted by Shard of Manus:

It hasn't changed, it's merely grown.

Demon's Souls was the start of the popularity of the series, but Dark Souls exploded an already niche and tight-knit community due to being multi-platform and more popular. Nonetheless, the game attracted a still niche audience and this inspires a certain degree of comradery. It was nonetheless plagued by the usual types you find on the internet, the unpleasant ones, the bitter ones, the ones that like to ruin everyone's time and or complain about every little minor gripe they have -- but for the most part it was a game picked up and tried by many, and those that stayed did so because they loved it. Some dropped it and never looked back.

People complained back then too, about difficulty, about the weird mechanics, or the clunky controls - and when it came to PC, about the cack-handed inputs and key commands. However, comparatively it was still a very small community (and admittedly PC gaming was more peaceful even just 10 years ago).

Over time the age demographic for gaming has been decreasing. It started with adults and young adults, and has over time expanded and expanded to include younger and younger generations and so game communities are as such filled with people of all ages and all maturities. Among those, the most audible are always the most bitter. People don't often express their admiration, joy or respect for things - but when people are unhappy about something they are very much inclined to vent about it and tell everyone else.

As Dark Souls has become more and more popular (and genre defining) to now being one of the most well-known franchises in modern gaming history (albeit all gaming history is technically modern)... the 'community' has grown and grown and grown. It's lost its niche. The unspoken comradery between people that like the same type of game has faded, as the genre has become so popular that it's like becoming friends with someone because you both like steak - you and 3 billion others.

Consequently, as the population has grown in the community, so has it come to include more and more people from varied walks of life, with varied opinions (on all things, yet especially about Dark Souls). Thus it is that the community itself divides and categorises itself into different portions - and between those categories there is malcontent (such as the invasion enthusiasts and haters, the co-op lovers and the solo-only theorists, the hardcore 'play the game the way it must be played' types and the casual 'I'm just having fun doing whatever' types. As more people become involved, these categories become fully fledged and defined cliques that spout everything they think on the forums and all leads to heated debate about what Dark Souls (and its siblings) should be - rather than people just appreciating the games for what the ARE.

The helpful, useful, and appreciable people are still out there. The ones that are loving the games, enjoying their time and trying to be good to others and helpful to those that need it still exist. However, they are drowned out by the noisy masses. People that take a meme that existed long before they ever were introduced to the series (git gud) and tout it incessantly with no manner or humour, people that don't even like the games and want everyone to know about it and why they should be made different, and those that argue about how things should be played based on their own preferences that accost anyone that thinks or plays differently.

This is the cost of popularity. When something involves so many people, it loses the magic. Imagine finding a remote little late night food bar that's tucked away. The food is great, the bartender/chef knows their drinks and accompanies the food perfectly, the ambience is great, and it's quiet - you hit it off with the bartender, and maybe meet a couple other regulars and enjoy your time there. You look forward to going there a couple nights a week just to wind down.

But word gets out that this place is fantastic. It gets popular, customers pile up, most nights it's busy, and inevitably there is always a loud table that just starts spoiling the night for everyone else there. People that used to love the place start to grow bitter at the ones 'spoiling it', they miss how it once was, and they no longer can enjoy it as much as a result - but the place is popular now, and nothing can be done about it.

Your only choice is to come to terms with the new way of things.

Yeah, I'm old in this community but I'm not demon-souls old . I'd love to play it though and BB if they ever make a PC port. I'm not surprised to hear that many of the same complaints were made. It makes a lot of sense though, not being nearly as popular, that people merely left if they did not enjoy this type of experience. I do miss it though - overcoming the challenges, finding all the little secrets, and testing new builds and sharing ideas amongst each other.

I remember one of my favorite builds was in DS3. It sucked in practice and was not practical against many bosses, but it was a Joker build. I gave him the Jailer robe to conceal the thorn legs. He used a bandits dagger with soldering iron for the LOLs. I also had an emphasis on poison/toxic pyromancies. I recall several invasions (lost every one of them with this build) where many invaders would stop the fight and pull out their binoculars. Granted, DS3 was not in the era of the "small community", but I still felt it from time to time. I don't know, they were just fun interactions with strangers

Great analogy with the bar. That made a lot of good sense and VERY relatable. It's sad, but I guess it has to do with growing pains of a successful franchise. I suppose I'll need to be more intentional with my posts to find the passionate community to have these fun discussions. I appreciate your input!

[DarkStarClassic]

Not sure in what world you live in but these days maybe a very small fraction like myself play games like this with zero knowledge still don't go wiki or videoguides die a lot but keep playing explore every corner(I SHOULD GET AN ACHIEVEMENT FOR THAT) seeing probably already 90% of the game(devs should be honored by players like me who realy see the game they made) had trouble with bosses like malenia(died at least 80 times) or like at this moment i stuck at Elden beast(died probably even more 90+ deaths) still keep playing untill i rrealy beat the game 100% without wiki and explore the game world near 100%. CO-OP sucks lucky i don't have to deal with that when playing single player.

[DarkStarClassic]

Comeback when you guys start a game you know nothing about still not going wiki or watch videoguides(like me) and still manage to finish with exploring the whole gamew instead of rushing through it. I have the feeling you feel so ELITE do you? When it niche you feel special right?

[Shard of Manus]

._. I can't tell if that's a deliberate joke.

I hope it is.

[Kain]

Originally posted by DarkStarClassic:

Not sure in what world you live in but these days maybe a very small fraction like myself play games like this with zero knowledge still don't go wiki or videoguides die a lot but keep playing explore every corner(I SHOULD GET AN ACHIEVEMENT FOR THAT) seeing probably already 90% of the game(devs should be honored by players like me who realy see the game they made) had trouble with bosses like malenia(died at least 80 times) or like at this moment i stuck at Elden beast(died probably even more 90+ deaths) still keep playing untill i rrealy beat the game 100% without wiki and explore the game world near 100%. CO-OP sucks lucky i don't have to deal with that when playing single player.

Used to be the small fraction you consider yourself to be, was the majority of the Souls player base. That changed over time.

[MisterPool]

Originally posted by Kain:

The game sold so many copies it became mainstream, the most common denominator of any group tends to be unintelligent and reactive. This game has a very large common denominator now.

Well, honestly I don't have any great story. I decided to explore Caelid in my first build and kinda ruined the intended difficulty progression and made everything even further past Lyendell a cakewalk, so I'm starting over and trying to make a build with evenly spread STR/DEX/INT/FTH , not because I think it will turn out to be powerful, but for challenge.

Interesing build Idea. I think it could be expanded to include Arcane as well to encompass the Dragon Spells, but it would make the leveling journey longer. I read somewhere the level cap is 713 though, so it's doable. You can get all but one stat up to 90, or push them all up to 85 and use the rune arc buff to push them up to 90 when needed.

[hbyw618]

Nothing wrong with this community, someone just like introduction toxic into it, we saw people defending it day by day, it's just okay.

[urabe mikoto]

tldr

[Kain]

Originally posted by wearthekilt:

Originally posted by Kain:

The game sold so many copies it became mainstream, the most common denominator of any group tends to be unintelligent and reactive. This game has a very large common denominator now.

Well, honestly I don't have any great story. I decided to explore Caelid in my first build and kinda ruined the intended difficulty progression and made everything even further past Lyendell a cakewalk, so I'm starting over and trying to make a build with evenly spread STR/DEX/INT/FTH , not because I think it will turn out to be powerful, but for challenge.

Interesing build Idea. I think it could be expanded to include Arcane as well to encompass the Dragon Spells, but it would make the leveling journey longer. I read somewhere the level cap is 713 though, so it's doable. You can get all but one stat up to 90, or push them all up to 85 and use the rune arc buff to push them up to 90 when needed.

I think it might be a good idea, the goals to be able to use everything eventually.

[SBA | Spooqui]

Originally posted by Shard of Manus:

It hasn't changed, it's merely grown.

Demon's Souls was the start of the popularity of the series, but Dark Souls exploded an already niche and tight-knit community due to being multi-platform and more popular. Nonetheless, the game attracted a still niche audience and this inspires a certain degree of comradery. It was nonetheless plagued by the usual types you find on the internet, the unpleasant ones, the bitter ones, the ones that like to ruin everyone's time and or complain about every little minor gripe they have -- but for the most part it was a game picked up and tried by many, and those that stayed did so because they loved it. Some dropped it and never looked back.

People complained back then too, about difficulty, about the weird mechanics, or the clunky controls - and when it came to PC, about the cack-handed inputs and key commands. However, comparatively it was still a very small community (and admittedly PC gaming was more peaceful even just 10 years ago).

Over time the age demographic for gaming has been decreasing. It started with adults and young adults, and has over time expanded and expanded to include younger and younger generations and so game communities are as such filled with people of all ages and all maturities. Among those, the most audible are always the most bitter. People don't often express their admiration, joy or respect for things - but when people are unhappy about something they are very much inclined to vent about it and tell everyone else.

As Dark Souls has become more and more popular (and genre defining) to now being one of the most well-known franchises in modern gaming history (albeit all gaming history is technically modern)... the 'community' has grown and grown and grown. It's lost its niche. The unspoken comradery between people that like the same type of game has faded, as the genre has become so popular that it's like becoming friends with someone because you both like steak - you and 3 billion others.

Consequently, as the population has grown in the community, so has it come to include more and more people from varied walks of life, with varied opinions (on all things, yet especially about Dark Souls). Thus it is that the community itself divides and categorises itself into different portions - and between those categories there is malcontent (such as the invasion enthusiasts and haters, the co-op lovers and the solo-only theorists, the hardcore 'play the game the way it must be played' types and the casual 'I'm just having fun doing whatever' types. As more people become involved, these categories become fully fledged and defined cliques that spout everything they think on the forums and all leads to heated debate about what Dark Souls (and its siblings) should be - rather than people just appreciating the games for what the ARE.

The helpful, useful, and appreciable people are still out there. The ones that are loving the games, enjoying their time and trying to be good to others and helpful to those that need it still exist. However, they are drowned out by the noisy masses. People that take a meme that existed long before they ever were introduced to the series (git gud) and tout it incessantly with no manner or humour, people that don't even like the games and want everyone to know about it and why they should be made different, and those that argue about how things should be played based on their own preferences that accost anyone that thinks or plays differently.

This is the cost of popularity. When something involves so many people, it loses the magic. Imagine finding a remote little late night food bar that's tucked away. The food is great, the bartender/chef knows their drinks and accompanies the food perfectly, the ambience is great, and it's quiet - you hit it off with the bartender, and maybe meet a couple other regulars and enjoy your time there. You look forward to going there a couple nights a week just to wind down.

But word gets out that this place is fantastic. It gets popular, customers pile up, most nights it's busy, and inevitably there is always a loud table that just starts spoiling the night for everyone else there. People that used to love the place start to grow bitter at the ones 'spoiling it', they miss how it once was, and they no longer can enjoy it as much as a result - but the place is popular now, and nothing can be done about it.

Your only choice is to come to terms with the new way of things.

Dude, did you just? Read my mind? Either way, I think you did it on the best way achievable, I respect you massively. Keep it up.

[The Presence]

Originally posted by Krazy Wallet:

...So, what are your stories in ER? I want to hear the best, epic moments of your journey. We are all struggling together, and that's what makes us better.

I fell off a cliff once.

[Krazy Wallet]

Originally posted by urabe mikoto:

tldr

That's fair, it's not a short post. Hope you're having a great day!

Originally posted by Lucifer:

Originally posted by Krazy Wallet:

...So, what are your stories in ER? I want to hear the best, epic moments of your journey. We are all struggling together, and that's what makes us better.

I fell off a cliff once.

Purposefully, by accident, or because a message said "Precious item ahead, try jumping"?