I've played to New Game 10. So I obviously enjoy the game. However, I hope future Fromsoft games aren't as RNG dependant.

[Gan]

The most "difficult" bosses in this game are only difficult if they do the best moves they have... Bosses like Maliketh and Malenia have super hard to avoid, very damaging abilities, that cannot even be punished safely. They also have abilities that result in a free hit with almost zero chance of damaging the player as long as the player is aware of them. This results in a rather boring game of RNG, waiting for the boss to do the moves you know are safe to punish, while just trying to survive their spammy abilities.

I would much rather have an array of more balanced attacks, each with a strength against the player, and a weakness to exploit, so combat flows, without RNG getting in the way.

As it stands, I can die to Maleketh 10 times in a row, where he just spammed his super cheap moves over and over, then get an attempt where he just does his lazy overhead 4 times in a row, only to walk at me slowly for 30 seconds... basically giving me the fight, essentially tasking away my ability to truly triumph over the "true fight" in the process.

This issue is present in Elden Ring more than in any other Souls game, where the player's success is largely dependent more on what moves the boss arbitrarily decides to do, more so than the player truly mastering all the boss has to throw at them.


Examples of RNG based fights:
- If Fire Giant decides to roll every time you get up to him, or do slow ineffective attacks.
- If malenia decides to water dance 18 times until you die, or if she decides once per phase is enough.
- If Maliketh wants to jump away from you and constantly pull camera shenanigans and go through walls, or just sit there doing overheads.
- Godskin Duo is the most stressful fight in the game to solo against. To the point where I stopped doing it on NG+3 and just summon every time since then, even being a solo purist, I do not feel bad about it in the least... I just don't have any fun taking on that "challenge", at all.



Examples of good fights:
- All of the dragon fights are all decently balanced. Even if they fly away, they usually provide you with an opening and try to breath on you. Placidusax has one ability that will kill most players, but he is guaranteed to do it at a specific point in the fight, and successfully evading it provides a huge opportunity for damage.

- Hora Loux/Godfrey is a perfect fight. All of his moves are reasonably dangerous and reasonably punishable. The second phase, he is spammy af, but there is no one move that is above and beyond more dangerous than the rest, or way more punishable. When I die I know I didn't play well, and when I win, I never feel like I just got "good RNG", like I so often do with the likes of Maliketh.

- Radagon is another perfectly tuned fight. Every attack is equally dangerous and equally punishable after the player knows what they are doing. Elden Beast can potentially waste the players time a bit... Which doesn't really have as drastic an outcome on the fight as bad Malenia or bad Maliketh RNG does, so I don't really see it as a problem, and can usually defeat it first try...

[surreptitious]

The player doesnt have the tools to deal with the speed/chaining attacks of the bosses.
So the RNG is ..
Did the boss choose to win or not.

Most videos of git gud are where the players never deal with the spaz attacks of the Boss.
You can argue that that is the fight, maintaining a range that limits the boss AI to specific attacks. That is not getting good its avoiding the need to be good.

Also notice the attack sequences of the Bosses have no bearing on what you are doing.
They continue the move tree even after you die ... continuing the attacks they were going to do anyway, minus of course the injected kill move if you try to use a potion.

They don't block ... cause they don't care what you do .. to me most bosses are just fighting a weed wacker non stop attack sequences .. i feel like the game cheats all the time and winning is something the developers had to force the system to allow you to do.

[Gan]

Originally posted by surreptitious:

The player doesnt have the tools to deal with the speed/chaining attacks of the bosses.
So the RNG is ..
Did the boss choose to win or not.

Most videos of git gud are where the players never deal with the spaz attacks of the Boss.
You can argue that that is the fight, maintaining a range that limits the boss AI to specific attacks. That is not getting good its avoiding the need to be good.

Also notice the attack sequences of the Bosses have no bearing on what you are doing.
They continue the move tree even after you die ... continuing the attacks they were going to do anyway, minus of course the injected kill move if you try to use a potion.

They don't block ... cause they don't care what you do .. to me most bosses are just fighting a weed wacker non stop attack sequences .. i feel like the game cheats all the time and winning is something the developers had to force the system to allow you to do.

If the bosses had a hidden stamina bar, that reduced their speed after they ran out, or forced them to take a breather from attacking for a second, that would reward player skill in evasion with a chance to hit, or at least time to heal up or something. Offering some balance and strategy to baiting and avoiding the more deadly attacks up close. This could reduce the feeling I get, whether I win or lose, of luck being involved, imo.

I get that they can't just make the bosses vulnerable after every single combo they do because that would make the gameplay very predictable. But the way it is now, it does feel like it depends what the bosses arbitrarily decide to do as much as it depends on player skill for each encounter.

This arbitrariness is another factor that kind of bothers me. How they will do a combo or an attack, that seems like it should leave them vulnerable, just based on intuitive logic... But then they attack again, or jump away. And I get that this is an intentional attempt to prey upon the intuition of the player, in order to fool them... Forcing the player to memorise the full combo, and when the boss will actually be vulnerable. However, this comes at a cost. The cost is the intuitive nature of the gameplay itself. If they are going to be this dedicated to punishing player intuition... yes, that is challenging... however, the inexorable result of that design choice is how it makes the combat feel unintuitive.

"The boss just did a huge combo, and is now sitting there in a recovery phase. Wait no, the game was just tricking me into thinking it was a recovery phase." is kind of bad design imo... and reveals the limits of the simplistic Souls combat system. If that is the only trick left in the book, the I-frame-game, might have run its course.

There hasn't been an enemy as fun and satisfying to fight in a souls game as the Black Knights from DS1. Very strong attacks, but not spammy. Odd timings/animations, but with wind-ups you can read. Poised up, but not arbitrarily turning on and off unintuitive hyper armor... Very deliberate attacks, but that are still difficult to read, and difficult to punish, but punishable. Intuitive, but difficult... If Every enemy in Elden Ring was just a variation on a Black Knight, I would enjoy it more.

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

Originally posted by surreptitious:

You can argue that that is the fight, maintaining a range that limits the boss AI to specific attacks. That is not getting good its avoiding the need to be good.

Learning how a boss works and how to play against them is exactly what getting good is about.

Originally posted by Earthen Meat:

I've played to New Game 10. So I obviously enjoy the game. However, I hope future Fromsoft games aren't as RNG dependant.

The bosses in this game aren't RNG dependant. Both your enjoyment and your progress in the game is irrelevant, so there's no need to bring that up. If you just wanna know how to fight against certain bosses, then bring that up.

As it stands, I can die to Maleketh 10 times in a row, where he just spammed his super cheap moves over and over, then get an attempt where he just does his lazy overhead 4 times in a row, only to walk at me slowly for 30 seconds... basically giving me the fight, essentially tasking away my ability to truly triumph over the "true fight" in the process.

You may have won due to RNG. But it doesn't mean that that the boss is RNG dependent. It just means you never figured him out, and you beat him before you could (or would). If you're really on NG +10, then I'm sorry that you haven't been able to improve in that span of time. But if you really cared about dealing with him, then you could have just killed yourself when you realized that the game threw you an easier script.

Maybe in the next game, Fromsoft will just remove those easier scripts completely, so you won't be able to beat the boss until you figure him out. That's what you want right? Maliketh would be a better boss if he never let you win up until now. That way you could have mastered him.

Examples of RNG based fights:
- If malenia decides to water dance 18 times until you die, or if she decides once per phase is enough.

This will never happen.
Even if it did, it'd be up to you figure out how to dodge it then. If you never learned how to dodge the attack, then that's on you.

[WumboWise]

You should be using the blasphemous claw tool against Maliketh. Makes it easy to parry his jump attacks. Get under him and most of his attacks can't land.

Malenia isn't that bad until her second phase. Her first waterfowl flurry is completely blockable, after which you can roll out of the other ones. If you stagger your attacks well, you can get her in a stun cycle.

Goddess of Rot is nuts. She uses her kick to prevent stunning her. While also building scarlet rot with her sword attacks, including her waterfowl dance, while also gaining the jumping rot phantom attack. Scariest boss in the game as a melee player by far.

[surreptitious]

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

Originally posted by surreptitious:

You can argue that that is the fight, maintaining a range that limits the boss AI to specific attacks. That is not getting good its avoiding the need to be good.

Learning how a boss works and how to play against them is exactly what getting good is about.

Originally posted by Earthen Meat:

I've played to New Game 10. So I obviously enjoy the game. However, I hope future Fromsoft games aren't as RNG dependant.

The bosses in this game aren't RNG dependant. Both your enjoyment and your progress in the game is irrelevant, so there's no need to bring that up. If you just wanna know how to fight against certain bosses, then bring that up.

As it stands, I can die to Maleketh 10 times in a row, where he just spammed his super cheap moves over and over, then get an attempt where he just does his lazy overhead 4 times in a row, only to walk at me slowly for 30 seconds... basically giving me the fight, essentially tasking away my ability to truly triumph over the "true fight" in the process.

You may have won due to RNG. But it doesn't mean that that the boss is RNG dependent. It just means you never figured him out, and you beat him before you could (or would). If you're really on NG +10, then I'm sorry that you haven't been able to improve in that span of time. But if you really cared about dealing with him, then you could have just killed yourself when you realized that the game threw you an easier script.

Maybe in the next game, Fromsoft will just remove those easier scripts completely, so you won't be able to beat the boss until you figure him out. That's what you want right? Maliketh would be a better boss if he never let you win up until now. That way you could have mastered him.

Examples of RNG based fights:
- If malenia decides to water dance 18 times until you die, or if she decides once per phase is enough.

This will never happen.
Even if it did, it'd be up to you figure out how to dodge it then. If you never learned how to dodge the attack, then that's on you.

You obviously have not played enough to have a valid opinion.
Go play more then when you are good enough come back and post again.

And if you truly believe that get gud is repeating a fight with a boss until you memorized a sequence. You are wrong, and so is every post about it.

Memorising a set of instructions is not being good. Needing to memorise a set of instructions implies the opposite.

Elden Ring has Serious Combat limits.
It looks like it has no concept of the other player other than a direction and distance parameter and then relies on non stop attack sequence. Difficulty is achieved through setting traps for the player.

I fought the black knight assassin boss. You are in a small space, there is no way to create any distance.

I counted out loud out of frustration yelling a number every time the mob attacked.
I was full pulling back on the controller rolling or sprinting backward or rolling forward through an attack for ever!!

I was at 13 or 14 non stop attacks in a row, im screaming WTF after each one, multiple grab attempts to perform a back stab , multiple attacks where she drags the dagger on the ground with the sparks into a charge attack. I have 0 stamina , 0 , I have 20% health ..

I roll to the right of an attack and go for a jump 2 hand slam .... the mob who is facing away ... bloodhoud steps across the room and evades it totally...umm, ok some distance .. i'm going to heal ... hit heal button .... as i hit it... mob charges across the room into a grab attack into a backstab death animation ....

I just lived through 20 seconds of non stop attack... NON STOP.. unable to do anything but dodge which started the second i appeared in the room and she threw her ranged attack.

There were no attack windows.
When it looked like i had created an opportunity by dodging and rolling for that period. My attack that should have been a gimmie standing on the mobs shoulder with it facing away ...nope poof mob gone right in the middle of the jump .. which it converted immediately into a kill move as it lunged back across the room into a grab backstab , when i hit the heal key.

That is some hot garbage.

There are glaring problems with Elden Ring combat.
Your get gud mantra shows you can't see it but im sure feel good knowing all you need to do is memorise a sequence. Of course throw one variation back in there and you are back to sucking .. but whatever

[Holografix]

1.
RNG can also work for the player. I beat Malenia because she did 3 Swan Rot-Dives in a row that I was able to punish for the win. Without that 3 move spam, I wouldn't have beaten her.

2.
I usually enjoy RNG in games because sometimes I enjoy grinding for gear/currency, so I have no problem with RNG mechanics.

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

Originally posted by Holografix:

1.
RNG can also work for the player. I beat Malenia because she did 3 Swan Rot-Dives in a row that I was able to punish for the win. Without that 3 move spam, I wouldn't have beaten her.

That's sort of what OP is complaining about. You're talking about a smaller bit of rng. But he's complaining that he's never beaten Maliketh "legitimately".

As it stands, I can die to Maleketh 10 times in a row, where he just spammed his super cheap moves over and over, then get an attempt where he just does his lazy overhead 4 times in a row, only to walk at me slowly for 30 seconds... basically giving me the fight, essentially tasking away my ability to truly triumph over the "true fight" in the process.

[Blazing]

I liked the feeling of quite a few bosses in previous titles where I just slowly learned the boss fight, got better at it and eventually beat it and felt really uplifted. Then whenever I fought the boss again, I would find more and more openings and slowly I would be able to punish near all attacks. This is just not a feeling I got from ER's bosses (and even some enemies). Honestly, after quite a few bosses I just felt "lucky". Lucky that the boss didn't use one certain move that often. Lucky that the boss didn't jump away across the map within a second. One could argue I didn't learn to beat that attack, but it seems like some attacks are clearly blatantly exponentially stronger than other attacks. And if those attacks get used randomly then the difficulty is not linear and interactive, especially if that move cannot or is barely punishable. I feel like there is a common understanding that the strongest moves should also have its own drawbacks; cooldowns, delays, openings, etc. But this doesn't seem the case in ER. Strong moves are near perfect moves and you should just play defensive until the boss uses another move. I find very little joy in this kind of gameplay.

What appealed to me in DS games were its mano-a-mano boss fights, where one was both the aggressor and the defender. Honestly, it was very similar to how the combat felt in Sekiro. Sekiro took that principle from DS games and improved upon it. But ER nearly lost it completely. "Getting good" doesn't feel good in this game.

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

Originally posted by Blazing:

I liked the feeling of quite a few bosses in previous titles where I just slowly learned the boss fight, got better at it and eventually beat it and felt really uplifted. Then whenever I fought the boss again, I would find more and more openings and slowly I would be able to punish near all attacks. This is just not a feeling I got from ER's bosses (and even some enemies). Honestly, after quite a few bosses I just felt "lucky". Lucky that the boss didn't use one certain move that often.

This happened to me with a few bosses in DS3, but thankfully, didn't happen this time around in ER.

[Pozzy Vibes GGHF :)]

you can counter with blasphemous claw to nullify those scripted jumping moves, that opens him up for like 5 seconds of damage. Him having that large cone slashing move is more than fair when you can exploit him with parries.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

You may have won due to RNG. But it doesn't mean that that the boss is RNG dependent.

Maybe in the next game, Fromsoft will just remove those easier scripts completely, so you won't be able to beat the boss until you figure him out. That's what you want right? Maliketh would be a better boss if he never let you win up until now. That way you could have mastered him.

You say the fight is not RNG dependant... Then the next paragraph admit that sometimes the fight is literally easier, completely contradicting yourself.

But yes, that is what I want. I want the difficulty of the fight to remain consistent in each and every attempt. Not have moves that are so much harder to deal with than others, and impossible to punish... while some moves don't threaten the player at all, to the point of being able to attack the boss the entire time they do it. Having moves so far apart in terms of difficulty evading and punish-ability, and the number of times the boss perform each dependant on on a Random Number Generator... is what makes success in the fight feel like it is a lot more luck dependant than it perhaps ought to.

[Holografix]

Originally posted by Morton Koopa Jr.:

Originally posted by Holografix:

1.
RNG can also work for the player. I beat Malenia because she did 3 Swan Rot-Dives in a row that I was able to punish for the win. Without that 3 move spam, I wouldn't have beaten her.

That's sort of what OP is complaining about. You're talking about a smaller bit of rng. But he's complaining that he's never beaten Maliketh "legitimately".

As it stands, I can die to Maleketh 10 times in a row, where he just spammed his super cheap moves over and over, then get an attempt where he just does his lazy overhead 4 times in a row, only to walk at me slowly for 30 seconds... basically giving me the fight, essentially tasking away my ability to truly triumph over the "true fight" in the process.

lol
which means that they only consider a "loss" as a true fight.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Holografix:

1.
RNG can also work for the player. I beat Malenia because she did 3 Swan Rot-Dives in a row that I was able to punish for the win. Without that 3 move spam, I wouldn't have beaten her.

2.
I usually enjoy RNG in games because sometimes I enjoy grinding for gear/currency, so I have no problem with RNG mechanics.

1. I know. That is how RNG works. It is physically impossible for RNG to only make the fight harder lol...

2. I would rather have each move be equally threatening, and punishable, in their own right. So I don't wind up getting my ass handed to me 15 times, only to feel like I never really won in the end, because the boss basically let me win, based on the stupid moves they decided to do in the time that I "won"...

[Nouka]

Every moves from Phase 1 Maliketh can be dodged or blocked reliably. Every moves from Phase 2 Maliketh can be dodged, strafed and heavily punished too. There is no RNG involved whatsoever.

Malenia is also completely fair. She can be parried, she can be staggered by most hit after any attack, she has a giant window for heavy attack after some of her slower moves, Waterfowl dance can be shutdown by using barricade shield on a medium shield without even rolling. Her phase 2 starting move can be dodged by just running toward her etc..

Godskin Duo is incredibly fun and one the best fight in the game if you know how to space yourself properly. Not even mentioning they are weak to sleep which is designed as a hard counter.

I agree with Fire Giant, just a boring and poorly designed fight.

I find it funny that you think the dragon fights are alright when they are all just worse Midir in every way possible. From their hitboxes to their obnoxious movements or the obnoxious places you fight them sometimes. And the amount copy pasted everywhere.

Also weird that you give Radagon's sometimes extremely annoying teleport a pass after criticizing Malenia's waterfowl spam.

"This issue is present in Elden Ring more than in any other Souls game, where the player's success is largely dependent more on what moves the boss arbitrarily decides to do, more so than the player truly mastering all the boss has to throw at them."

Huge disagree. I would argue that Elden Ring has some of the most interesting Bosses in all Souls games. It's not just a dodge and spam r1. You have counterguard, jump attack. a ton of items to exploit their weakness, huge reward in landing fully charged heavy attack to break their posture, strong weapon arts, summons with different strength and weakness, statues effect being strong trough the entire game, an insane range of weapon, magic and faith abilities. Damage and defense buff that makes a big difference etc...

[Gan]

Originally posted by Nouka:

Every moves from Phase 1 Maliketh can be dodged or blocked reliably. Every moves from Phase 2 Maliketh can be dodged, strafed and heavily punished too. There is no RNG involved whatsoever.

Malenia is also completely fair. She can be parried, she can be staggered by most hit after any attack, she has a giant window for heavy attack after some of her slower moves, Waterfowl dance can be shutdown by using barricade shield on a medium shield without even rolling. Her phase 2 starting move can be dodged by just running toward her etc..

Godskin Duo is incredibly fun and one the best fight in the game if you know how to space yourself properly. Not even mentioning they are weak to sleep which is designed as a hard counter.

I agree with Fire Giant, just a boring and poorly designed fight.

I find it funny that you think the dragon fights are alright when they are all just worse Midir in every way possible. From their hitboxes to their obnoxious movements or the obnoxious places you fight them sometimes. And the amount copy pasted everywhere.

Also weird that you give Radagon's sometimes extremely annoying teleport a pass after criticizing Malenia's waterfowl spam.

"This issue is present in Elden Ring more than in any other Souls game, where the player's success is largely dependent more on what moves the boss arbitrarily decides to do, more so than the player truly mastering all the boss has to throw at them."

Huge disagree. I would argue that Elden Ring has some of the most interesting Bosses in all Souls games. It's not just a dodge and spam r1. You have counterguard, jump attack. a ton of items to exploit their weakness, huge reward in landing fully charged heavy attack to break their posture, strong weapon arts, summons with different strength and weakness, statues effect being strong trough the entire game, an insane range of weapon, magic and faith abilities. Damage and defense buff that makes a big difference etc...

I am talking about Maliketh only, not the Beast clergymen. And yes, every single move can be dodged... did I ever say anything to the contrary? The problem I am pointing out is that some moves, are much, much, much more easily dodged AND punished than others. Meaning, more often than should be the case, success is depending on how many times the boss decides to do each individual move, rather than how well the player dodged and punished each. I would never say there are moves that can't be dodged, but I would argue there are moves that cannot be punished, despite being harder to dodge than most. Meaning, if the boss's RNG decided to perform those moves a lot, while offering little to no melee punish opportunities, the player may perform much better than in another instance where the boss arbitrarily decided to only do pushover moves, and yet lose? The player should not be able to perform better and lose, and worse yet win, depending on the boss's decisions as often as it can happen in this game. Which is the entire issue I have, which I am pointing out, because you've failed to get that point. The player can play an extremely skilled fight, dodging the hardest to dodge attacks repeatedly, and lose... Or, the player can play badly, and win just because the boss plays badly and does his crap moves...

Malenia is a great fight. But she suffers from the same issue. Where the player can play incredibly well, but face her water fowl dance too many times, and lose. You know in phase 2, if you block it twice in a row too soon, you're automatically rotted? And depending on what RNG you get after that... Good luck curing the rot before she is on you again.
Or, the player can play okayish, but get only 1 water fowl the entire fight, as Malenia just does a bunch of scoops the first phase, and a bunch of flower attacks the second... Making it so the player literally doesn't have to play as well as they did when they lost last fight, and win this fight.

The dragons are obviously copy/pasted, which is a completely separate issue from the issue I am pointing out here of "being too RNG". Every single move they do is equally punishing and punishable. So, the fight is perfect as far as RNG goes.

I find the teleport fairly easy to dodge? And if not dodgeable, extremely blockable... You take a little tickle of holy damage, and it does nothing to your stamina. Where as Malenia's water dance I take issue with because it punishes aggression, at random. If she randomly decides to do that attack in the wrong moment, a good run can be ended. I just don't think one single attack any enemy has should be that overpowered as to gain the reputation this one specific move has as an attempt killer. At the very least, they could give you a moment afterwards to punish her for it, but nope, they don't. The most powerful attack in the game literally can't be punished with melee, unless you gamble. How is that balanced? When you have joke moves, like the scoop, which is incredibly easy to dodge, and you can just whale on her for it. How can you argue that an attempt where she does twice as many scoops, and half as many fowl dances, is not easier than when it is the other way around? It makes victory feel RNG a lot of the time. Of course a skilled enough player can win even when she throws everything she has at them... For average players, they will fight her until she just lets them win a lot of the time, which is bad game design imo.

I personally think I am really good at the fight now, to the point, where the only thing that even can kill me is Water Dance. So when I make an attempt at NG9, and beat her first try, I feel pretty good about myself at first, until I realize she only Water danced twice the entire fight, and I still had no estus (it's estus lol) left, making me question whether I'd actually earned that... Or if she basically just let me win...