Daggers are weird.

[Giganx]

Range is the worst of any weapon in game, so much so that many enemies with large collision boxes can't even be hit during some of their basic animations no matter how close you are.

Damage per hit is the lowest in the game by a pretty big margin.

Speed: while powerstancing it's probably the slowest weapon in the game, locking you into a lengthy 3hit combo that hits for far less damage than any other weapon.

Status build up; likely where the weapon is supposed to shine... It's worse at status build up than Katana, Twinblades, Curved Blades and there's probably more. Pretty much every bleed weapon applies bleed faster.

I'm doing kind of a challenge run naked with daggers and I'm enjoying it, but I'm a little curious if daggers were intended to be objectively worse than every other weapon in every way, lol.

[John Titor]

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

...I get the impression you're the type that reads a lot, repeats what he reads a lot but doesn't really understand what he's saying. Since you don't seem to understand what it is you're trying to prove your tests will always be flawed.

Opposed to the type that gets absolutely baffled why a small, short weapon type has a short range and does generally little damage. It's quite a diverse thread, isn't it?

[Vix]

İlk olarak John Titor tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

...I get the impression you're the type that reads a lot, repeats what he reads a lot but doesn't really understand what he's saying. Since you don't seem to understand what it is you're trying to prove your tests will always be flawed.

Opposed to the type that gets absolutely baffled why a small, short weapon type has a short range and does generally little damage. It's quite a diverse thread, isn't it?

Opposed to the type that makes witty and creative statements to keep threads from being stale, how do you like that?!

[John Titor]

İlk olarak Vix tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak John Titor tarafından gönderildi:

Opposed to the type that gets absolutely baffled why a small, short weapon type has a short range and does generally little damage. It's quite a diverse thread, isn't it?

Opposed to the type that makes witty and creative statements to keep threads from being stale, how do you like that?!

[SadPlatty©]

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

I get the impression you're the type that reads a lot, repeats what he reads a lot but doesn't really understand what he's saying. Since you don't seem to understand what it is you're trying to prove your tests will always be flawed.

Well, considering he posted some proof via pictures, I would say he is doing better than you think. Unless those are "useless" in which I would argue your video was equally useless as you parried way too much to measure anything.

Additionally - what I am having a giggle over, is how you seem to think a jumping curved sword attack lands 100% of the time, and the dagger also lands 100% of the time based on how "in the minutia" you seem to be trying to get (you saying "Put simply, the weapon that lands the most hits in the least amount of time builds status faster").

Enemies move at varying paces between super slow and lightning fast. You are basically telling me:
- Curved Swords you spam jumping PS
- Daggers you spam the first 2 strikes of standing PS
Therefore, should you encounter a Revenant, you are assuring me that Curved Sword is better, because you are more likely to land a jumping attack on it, vs just smacking at it with daggers while right on-top of it.

Maybe a bad choice - how about we use a boss example. If using only the one "main" way of dishing out procs; do you without a doubt truly believe you are going to be able to beat Malenia faster with solely jumping curved swords vs swinging daggers? Don't consider the damage - that isn't the point in this situation, I am talking straight "how many procs you need to pull off in a set timeframe"; so say if you needed to make 10 procs in 3 minutes to beat her (and that would be to say anything like poison instantly clears for you to stack it again in this example - as otherwise 10 procs in 3 minutes is impossible with poison), you will 100% only use the jumping curved swords as they allow you to attack/recover from attacks fast enough that you don't need to worry about missing a couple of them?

And what about stuff like fighting in a hazard, such as magma or poison swamp. Is it truly better to go the route of jumping attacks that trap you in the hazard vs being able to stop swinging your dagger real quick and hop out?

Don't forget - being the best doesn't mean you deal the most damage, that is just a glass cannon and may not even be able to take on the player with the most defense as they can only take a hit or two vs that guy taking potentially more, and being more likely to trade into your attacks. You need to consider both aspects to be truly the "most efficient"/:most effective", hence my leaning into parries before. Can't hit the guy if your dead

[Giganx]

İlk olarak John Titor tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

...I get the impression you're the type that reads a lot, repeats what he reads a lot but doesn't really understand what he's saying. Since you don't seem to understand what it is you're trying to prove your tests will always be flawed.

Opposed to the type that gets absolutely baffled why a small, short weapon type has a short range and does generally little damage. It's quite a diverse thread, isn't it?

Honestly those 2 wouldn't strike me as odd at all if the Daggers weren't also slow. Now, if you could animation cancel Daggers PS attacks then It would all make more sense.

@SadPlatty

We're mostly just talking about how fast each weapon can hit a stationary target. Obviously there's a billion variables that could influence which weapon is able to land hits easier. To your Malenia example specifically, jumping PS is WAY more useful because it actually hitstuns her. Also, as has been mentioned, the Daggers small hitbox makes it impossible to connect with large enemies in some cases because the enemies collision box prevents the Daggers from reaching his hit box.

Curved Swords have the range, though, so it's probably not far off to assume they land hits easier.

Status building aside Daggers still do less damage, have worse range and have a long animation lock. I'm not hearing a ton of great arguments to why Daggers are good, despite all the insistence that they are.

[Xengre]

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

@Xengre

Even if speccing blood does equalize status build per hit that just makes per hit the only metric worth measuring. Put simply, the weapon that lands the most hits in the least amount of time builds status faster. To test the weapons against each other you spam their most hit efficient strikes. For Curved Swords you spam jumping PS and for Daggers you spam the first 2 strikes of standing PS.

Are you insane? It appears you are.

This is precisely what I tested. You're ridiculous.

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

@Xengre
Even if speccing blood does equalize status build per hit that just makes per hit the only metric worth measuring. Put simply, the weapon that lands the most hits in the least amount of time builds status faster. To test the weapons against each other you spam their most hit efficient strikes. For Curved Swords you spam jumping PS and for Daggers you spam the first 2 strikes of standing PS.

I tested which built status faster and most efficiently. To be perfectly clear, there are two things to consider here contrary to your very confused self.

1. Which builds faster to a proc, period.

2. Which builds faster over the course of a fight incurring multiple procs reliably at a total superior application rate, aka over delta similar to DPS.

To point 1, clearly daggers win.

To point 2, in order for the extra hits on Curved Sword to matter towards subsequent applications in a meaningful way for additional testing there has to not be a significant gap. If the 1st proc occurs not too long after the dagger than its worth further testing to see if over a period of time (ex 10 seconds) if despite recovery the extra chained hits that weren't counted for that attack and subsequent result in faster raw status procs. Unfortunately for your argument, this isn't necessary to test because the gap between dagger's first proc and Curved Sword's was too massive, especially considering the heinous recovery time and travel time for jumping and landing. You are perfectly free to test and provide a timed video comparing the two (show the gear heh) and prove me wrong but you haven't proven crap this entire thread other than your a fool. You couldn't even be bothered to load up the game and confirm that daggers have the same status buildup stat as other weapons and kept spewing false information. You've shown a total negligence for integrity with repeated malicious deceptive comments and outright lies in your agenda against daggers, an agenda I find baffling odd by the way (did daggers hurt you somehow? bro...).

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

Seeing which weapon procs bleed first on an arbitrary enemy is pointless, and shows that you don't actually know what to test for. An enemy that procs in exactly 5 strikes would favor the dagger in a race to 1 single proc, because the dagger doesn't have to reset, where 5 strikes forces the Curved Sword to recover and reset. Find an enemy that takes 8 strikes and the Dagger has to reset as well, which gives you a more accurate, less slanted result.

See above point why you are wrong. Further, you don't test for "8 strikes". You test for freaking delta dude. You're actually very obnoxious and dense.

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

I get the impression you're the type that reads a lot, repeats what he reads a lot but doesn't really understand what he's saying. Since you don't seem to understand what it is you're trying to prove your tests will always be flawed.

Hmm... I'm confident I am not the only one seeing the irony of your comment.

Perhaps if you stop being wrong for a moment and spouting incorrect information, constantly getting the game's mechanics totally wrong and failing at math, counting, and reading comprehension... perhaps you could find the time to provide video evidence, or any evidence at this point, proving anything you've stated. Oh, right... lol

[Hektik]

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

Range is the worst of any weapon in game, so much so that many enemies with large collision boxes can't even be hit during some of their basic animations no matter how close you are.

Damage per hit is the lowest in the game by a pretty big margin.

Speed: while powerstancing it's probably the slowest weapon in the game, locking you into a lengthy 3hit combo that hits for far less damage than any other weapon.

Status build up; likely where the weapon is supposed to shine... It's worse at status build up than Katana, Twinblades, Curved Blades and there's probably more. Pretty much every bleed weapon applies bleed faster.

I'm doing kind of a challenge run naked with daggers and I'm enjoying it, but I'm a little curious if daggers were intended to be objectively worse than every other weapon in every way, lol.

Lol I finished a dagger build play through last week and completely empathize with your pain. It's sO mUcH fUn watching your character get slid around by a boss due to collision detection while you're swinging daggers that are whiffing the fatty in your face. I have a clip of fighting an Erd tree avatar and it shows my dagger visible touching them but no damage is registering. Between bad hit boxes and terrible input batching I would not suggest dagger builds for anyone prone to anger.

[Giganx]

@Xengre

For the test where you actually posted information here, you only tested which weapon procced bleed first on an enemy that takes exactly 5 hits to proc. In order to land 5 hits the Curved Swords have to recover and restart their optimal attack, while the daggers optimal attack is exactly 5 hits. If you can't see how that's a flawed test I'm not sure what to tell you.

Seeing which weapon lands the most attacks over a set and more lengthy time period would be a much better test. Seeing how quickly you like to throw stats around I'm guessing you already did that test as well, but didn't like the results. So now your only option is to throw around insults and try to convince everyone that those results wouldn't matter.

But hey, maybe that test would prove you right. I'm just saying the only stats you did provide made it obvious you were trying to skew the results.

[Giganx]

İlk olarak Hektik tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

Range is the worst of any weapon in game, so much so that many enemies with large collision boxes can't even be hit during some of their basic animations no matter how close you are.

Damage per hit is the lowest in the game by a pretty big margin.

Speed: while powerstancing it's probably the slowest weapon in the game, locking you into a lengthy 3hit combo that hits for far less damage than any other weapon.

Status build up; likely where the weapon is supposed to shine... It's worse at status build up than Katana, Twinblades, Curved Blades and there's probably more. Pretty much every bleed weapon applies bleed faster.

I'm doing kind of a challenge run naked with daggers and I'm enjoying it, but I'm a little curious if daggers were intended to be objectively worse than every other weapon in every way, lol.

Lol I finished a dagger build play through last week and completely empathize with your pain. It's sO mUcH fUn watching your character get slid around by a boss due to collision detection while you're swinging daggers that are whiffing the fatty in your face. I have a clip of fighting an Erd tree avatar and it shows my dagger visible touching them but no damage is registering. Between bad hit boxes and terrible input batching I would not suggest dagger builds for anyone prone to anger.

Nice. Honestly the fight that scares me the most is the Valiant Gargoyle. Even with a normal weapon I can have trouble reaching their hitboxes. I don't know if I even want to try that one. ;)

[Xengre]

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

@Xengre

For the test where you actually posted information here, you only tested which weapon procced bleed first on an enemy that takes exactly 5 hits to proc. In order to land 5 hits the Curved Swords have to recover and restart their optimal attack, while the daggers optimal attack is exactly 5 hits. If you can't see how that's a flawed test I'm not sure what to tell you.

Seeing which weapon lands the most attacks over a set and more lengthy time period would be a much better test. Seeing how quickly you like to throw stats around I'm guessing you already did that test as well, but didn't like the results. So now your only option is to throw around insults and try to convince everyone that those results wouldn't matter.

But hey, maybe that test would prove you right. I'm just saying the only stats you did provide made it obvious you were trying to skew the results.

The test, as already pointed out, skews it in favor of the Curved Sword. I've pointed this out repeatedly. Not in favor of the dagger. It removes the significant post hit delay from curved sword falling to ground before next action.

None of this even addresses the fact bosses and many other enemies wont let you spam this and a jump power stance curved sword has less windows to attack, and less frequency than daggers. Realistically, daggers simply have vastly superior offensive time which only further separates daggers over other weapons for status procs. If you don't comprehend this, just like everything else... think Colossal weapon vs Straight Sword. How many attacks do you get off with Colossal Weapons between boss actions. It definitely will not be more, or even as much, as a Straight Sword. Point made.

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

Seeing which weapon lands the most attacks over a set and more lengthy time period would be a much better test. Seeing how quickly you like to throw stats around I'm guessing you already did that test as well, but didn't like the results. So now your only option is to throw around insults and try to convince everyone that those results wouldn't matter.

Incorrect assumption. Seriously, you're reading comprehension cannot possibly be this bad. Please.

I covered that issue here and why you are wrong in this particular situation:

İlk olarak Xengre tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Gigan tarafından gönderildi:

@Xengre
Even if speccing blood does equalize status build per hit that just makes per hit the only metric worth measuring. Put simply, the weapon that lands the most hits in the least amount of time builds status faster. To test the weapons against each other you spam their most hit efficient strikes. For Curved Swords you spam jumping PS and for Daggers you spam the first 2 strikes of standing PS.

I tested which built status faster and most efficiently. To be perfectly clear, there are two things to consider here contrary to your very confused self.

1. Which builds faster to a proc, period.

2. Which builds faster over the course of a fight incurring multiple procs reliably at a total superior application rate, aka over delta similar to DPS.

To point 1, clearly daggers win.

To point 2, in order for the extra hits on Curved Sword to matter towards subsequent applications in a meaningful way for additional testing there has to not be a significant gap. If the 1st proc occurs not too long after the dagger than its worth further testing to see if over a period of time (ex 10 seconds) if despite recovery the extra chained hits that weren't counted for that attack and subsequent result in faster raw status procs. Unfortunately for your argument, this isn't necessary to test because the gap between dagger's first proc and Curved Sword's was too massive, especially considering the heinous recovery time and travel time for jumping and landing. You are perfectly free to test and provide a timed video comparing the two (show the gear heh) and prove me wrong but you haven't proven crap this entire thread other than your a fool. You couldn't even be bothered to load up the game and confirm that daggers have the same status buildup stat as other weapons and kept spewing false information. You've shown a total negligence for integrity with repeated malicious deceptive comments and outright lies in your agenda against daggers, an agenda I find baffling odd by the way (did daggers hurt you somehow? bro...).

If you want to prove anyone wrong with your blatant lies then post your own proof at this point. We're all waiting. You've been caught repeatedly lying and not even testing or checking basic information and giving bad info.

İlk olarak Hektik tarafından gönderildi:

Lol I finished a dagger build play through last week and completely empathize with your pain. It's sO mUcH fUn watching your character get slid around by a boss due to collision detection while you're swinging daggers that are whiffing the fatty in your face. I have a clip of fighting an Erd tree avatar and it shows my dagger visible touching them but no damage is registering. Between bad hit boxes and terrible input batching I would not suggest dagger builds for anyone prone to anger.

Definitely a slight learning curve to make sure your close enough as its easy to make a mistake thinking you are when you aren't until you've practiced enough, or in some cases like you mention there might be the oddball FROM fail collision detection that doesn't mesh well with daggers.

[Hektik]

İlk olarak Xengre tarafından gönderildi:

]@Xengre
Lol I finished a dagger build play through last week and completely empathize with your pain. It's sO mUcH fUn watching your character get slid around by a boss due to collision detection while you're swinging daggers that are whiffing the fatty in your face. I have a clip of fighting an Erd tree avatar and it shows my dagger visible touching them but no damage is registering. Between bad hit boxes and terrible input batching I would not suggest dagger builds for anyone prone to anger.

Definitely a slight learning curve to make sure your close enough as its easy to make a mistake thinking you are when you aren't until you've practiced enough, or in some cases like you mention there might be the oddball FROM fail collision detection that doesn't mesh well with daggers. [/quote]

Found a LOT of FROM fails where collision detection exceeded the hit box during my dagger play through. Doing a twinblade play through currently and seeing some repeat cases where jumping L1 whiffs at the top of the jump though not as egregious as the daggers

[Onion]

Fists and claws: hold my beer

[Giganx]

@Xengre

Your test favored the Daggers, and I've repeated why several times. You tested on an enemy that procs in under 2 seconds for the Dagger, which means exactly 5 hits. 5 hits for the Dagger means no post hit delay or reset. 5 hits for the Curved swords means it has to go through the jumping animation twice and it's post hit delay/reset once. That's a terrible test that completely favors the Daggers.

The tests you provided only served to prove that you don't actually know what to test for in this situation. So in that regard you haven't provided anything worthwhile. I'm not even necessarily saying I know the answer, since I agree that would require real testing. All I'm saying is that your tests specifically were worthless because you don't know what you're doing.

Also, I've done an entire playthrough with dual twinblades, which basically has the same jumping PS attack as the Curved Swords. You can fit up to 2 full jumping PS attacks in during most legitimate punish windows if you position correctly; that's 8 hits. Good luck landing 8 straight hits with Daggers during any punish window; assuming your Daggers can even reach the enemies hit box.