The case for Sekiro and why I'm disappointed with Dark souls 4/Elden Ring so far

[MonkeyBizNiz]

First thing is first. I love everything From Software does and Elden Ring will be a day 1 buy for me, but after playing Sekiro and then playing through Dark Souls III over again, I just wanted to highlight some of my problems with these games and make a case for why Sekiro is quickly becoming my favorite game of all time. This will be a discussion about mechanics and not anything else about these games like the incredible story/world building which is common amongst all From Software games. The discussion will use Dark Souls 3 as an example and will make some comparisons and assumptions about Elden Ring.

So my problem with Dark Souls III and why I think Sekiro is superior is I-frames. It is incredibly stupid that you can roll underneath a weapon, get hit by it, and not take any damage. This encourages panic rolling and after being introduced to mechanics that demand skill, going back to this roll fest is going to be and has been disappointing. Sekiro's enemies were so incredible because you had to worry about 4 things.
1) sweep attacks ---> jump those
2) thrust attacks ---> mikiri or dodge those
3) grab attacks ----> dodge or jump those
4) regular attacks --> parry those
Your brain is engaged the entire time! Frantically studying your opponent for what they will do next, often times looking for a slight difference in their movement to determine if it is a sweep or a thrust, for example. In DS3, you have one response.
1) attacks ---> roll those
After playing Sekiro, this is such a downgrade! I still enjoy the gameplay, but it is missing so much!! Elden Ring has introduced some AOE attacks which you need to jump, but from what I've seen, these are not too difficult to tell apart and are often telegraphed by a large jump or wind up.
1) attacks ---> roll those
2) AOE attacks ---> jump those or run away!
Now I'll get into the whole panic roll problem...

When I play these games, I like to beat the entire game without using summons, without farming, and I try my best to not panic rolling. I'm ashamed to say, the only reason I beat Sister Friede is I panic rolled. This went against every fibre of my being as I love mastering the mechanics of a game and playing it with those mechanics making a cinematic and tense experience. After beating her, I was not happy, but was actually salty and went on to beat the Gravetender Greatwolf with panic rolling as well. I probably could have beaten the wolf without it, but the fact that it was easier WHILE panic rolling is completely backward to me. Why are they rewarding you for mashing a button? I would also like to say that after killing Champion's Gravetender I stopped panic rolling and REALLY enjoyed the bossfight. Why did they have to put the Champion's Gravetender in there? Just for difficulty? It would have been more fun if they put the Greatwolf with some wolves like you fought earlier in the DLC. That was manageable. It baffles me why Dark Souls trolls its players with rage inducing boss fights just for difficulty's sake when they can make an amazingly enjoyable boss fight, that may not be as difficult, but it's more satisfying because you don't feel like you have to cheat the game to win. I know there may be easier tactics to beat enemies (using spells, bleed, poison, etc.), but the fact that it is easier when you mash the dodge button is what really irks me.

Now, you can beat Sekiro while panic blocking (and it might even be easier), but you can also beat it by mastering the mechanics whereas in the Friede fight, I don't think it was possible for me to beat it with just mastering the mechanics. Also, there's a new game plus option that punishes panic blocking in Sekiro for people like me who really want to master the mechanics.

Anyway, I could go on and on, but this is why I'm a little disappointed with what I've seen of Elden Ring so far. I was so excited when I heard they would be adding Sekiro mechanics to the game, but it turns out it's just a pretty terrible stealth system that doesn't work for taking out groups of enemies and a jump button... Oh, and a counter system where you roll every attack in a sequence until the last, then block and do that shield counter (whatever it's called) to get some big posture damage. This will be Dark Souls 4 and I will buy it because, aside from all the problems I mentioned here, it's still a freaking awesome experience. I will also continue to wait for Sekiro 2 or the spiritual successor because that gameplay was and is simply the best!

Have fun discussing :D

p.s. might be fun to re-evaluate after Elden Ring is released. This is really a comparison between Dark Souls and Sekiro as Elden Ring might still have a few things up it's sleeve (here's hoping)

[Senki]

Morton Koopa Jr.님이 먼저 게시:

Arti님이 먼저 게시:

I mean they are technically right that you can beat the game without the roll but yeah in reality no one actually does unless they already mastered the game and are already on their 10th playthrough or something. For first playthroughs it's pretty much a core mechanic.

They are technically right lmao, and hell, I've had to not roll with some builds but lol. I feel like it's an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ argument to make to say "rolling isn't necessary". Lobos Jr has shown us that you don't need armor, health, or even fully functional weapons to win :dsheart:

But back to the main point. I think less i-frames than what DS3 had would be a welcome feature to the game.

Full disclosure: I'm a person who didn't level up adp in DS2 for the longest time cause I had no idea it was related to i-frames.

I don't really mind the i-frames. I mean they could go the DS2 route and start characters with low i-frames then make a stat that increases it so you can choose if you want it or not but with how badly people raged about it in DS2 I don't think it's gonna happen.

[Morton Koopa Jr.]

Arti님이 먼저 게시:

Morton Koopa Jr.님이 먼저 게시:

They are technically right lmao, and hell, I've had to not roll with some builds but lol. I feel like it's an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ argument to make to say "rolling isn't necessary". Lobos Jr has shown us that you don't need armor, health, or even fully functional weapons to win

But back to the main point. I think less i-frames than what DS3 had would be a welcome feature to the game.

Full disclosure: I'm a person who didn't level up adp in DS2 for the longest time cause I had no idea it was related to i-frames.

I don't really mind the i-frames. I mean they could go the DS2 route and start characters with low i-frames then make a stat that increases it so you can choose if you want it or not but with how badly people raged about it in DS2 I don't think it's gonna happen.

They definitely won't.
I think for me, the peak with these games are gonna be DS2 and BB. Not just cause of this of course, but I think in terms of that perfect challenge to engage me.

[RyuKazé]

Morton Koopa Jr.님이 먼저 게시:

(Note, the other people saying "rolling isn't necessary" are trying too hard imo to prove you wrong here lol. I am not going going to make that extreme of an argument here.)

Morton Koopa Jr.님이 먼저 게시:

They are technically right lmao, and hell, I've had to not roll with some builds but lol. I feel like it's an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ argument to make to say "rolling isn't necessary". Lobos Jr has shown us that you don't need armor, health, or even fully functional weapons to win :dsheart:

Not people, just me. He brought up an analogy of jumping in a Mario game vs rolling on DS. In most Mario games you need to jump whereas you don't need to roll in any DS games.

Now when you take it away from the context of the anology and then say it's an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ argument to make that rolling isn't necessary as if I said it in a vacuum, then yeah, that's going to sound like a get gooder elitism.

In any case, strafing is the way

[Whitecrow]

RyuKazé님이 먼저 게시:

In any case, strafing is the way

Are you implying that wearing full havel and facetanking the universe is not the true way?
P.S.: Hopefully return of passive poise will bring this playstyle back. It just wasn't the same in ds3.

[Paradox101]

I don't consider sekiro a souls like, it's more like a "Hack and slash". There are obvious differences in the style of sekiro and souls like in general, I don't understand people who say "aiiii sekiro is souls like because it's difficult", defining the game souls like just by the difficulty is a lot of ignorance.

Sekiro is something else,

[Trezoitao38]

Arti님이 먼저 게시:

Oh yeah I guess you guys are right. Just did some quick research

Still it's an important mechanic in the game at the very least and no new player ever played those games without using it. Playing without it is more of a challenge thing for veterans

Also found someone doing mario odyssey without jumping so there's that.

No. you cant really dodge with a lot of weight. So, the devs must make the game doing dodge unnecessary.

In fact, it is easier to play without dodge, and not hardest.

Want some prove?

https://youtu.be/eBtBEJTVQI8

The fight finish at 3:32.

[Trezoitao38]

King_of_Acre님이 먼저 게시:

I don't consider sekiro a souls like, it's more like a "Hack and slash". There are obvious differences in the style of sekiro and souls like in general, I don't understand people who say "aiiii sekiro is souls like because it's difficult", defining the game souls like just by the difficulty is a lot of ignorance.

Sekiro is something else,

Sekiro is more similar to a souls like than a hack'n'slash game.

[RyuKazé]

Trezoitao38님이 먼저 게시:

No. you cant really dodge with a lot of weight. So, the devs must make the game doing dodge unnecessary.

In fact, it is easier to play without dodge, and not hardest.

Want some prove?

https://youtu.be/eBtBEJTVQI8

The fight finish at 3:32.

gg

[BlackSunEmpire]

Trezoitao38님이 먼저 게시:

King_of_Acre님이 먼저 게시:

I don't consider sekiro a souls like, it's more like a "Hack and slash". There are obvious differences in the style of sekiro and souls like in general, I don't understand people who say "aiiii sekiro is souls like because it's difficult", defining the game souls like just by the difficulty is a lot of ignorance.

Sekiro is something else,

Sekiro is more similar to a souls like than a hack'n'slash game.

"Hack and slash" isnt even a clearly defined terminology.

If anything both are action adventures. Sure action adventure isnt a completely clear cut term either. But "Hack and slash" is really only a slang word for everything weapon related from isometric sidescrollers to 3D games.

I find the term "souls like" kind of missleading anyways.

What defines a "souls like" ? What must a game have to be called that way ?
Is it just another term for difficult and cryptic action adventure, with the typical
dogeroll-attack combat ?

[Senki]

Trezoitao38님이 먼저 게시:

Arti님이 먼저 게시:

Oh yeah I guess you guys are right. Just did some quick research

Still it's an important mechanic in the game at the very least and no new player ever played those games without using it. Playing without it is more of a challenge thing for veterans

Also found someone doing mario odyssey without jumping so there's that.

No. you cant really dodge with a lot of weight. So, the devs must make the game doing dodge unnecessary.

In fact, it is easier to play without dodge, and not hardest.

Want some prove?

https://youtu.be/eBtBEJTVQI8

The fight finish at 3:32.

I beat manus without dodging as well because poise in ds1 is overpowered and I just tanked through like half of his hits without getting good but yeah I was thinking of all of the souls games not just 1. DS3 is way easier with dodging.

I mean in 1 I didn't roll either for like half of the game. Still a single fight doesn't prove anything. Doing artorias and dragonslayers without rolling is the real challenge not manus.

Also even in your video the fight would've in fact been easier if you dodged those spells instead of having to stop and heal everytime.

[Kleerex]

My mouse broke while playing Sekiro, the right mouse button specifically. If that isn't a testament to how repetitive Sekiro gameplay is, then I don't know what else would.

[Trezoitao38]

Arti님이 먼저 게시:

Trezoitao38님이 먼저 게시:

No. you cant really dodge with a lot of weight. So, the devs must make the game doing dodge unnecessary.

In fact, it is easier to play without dodge, and not hardest.

Want some prove?

https://youtu.be/eBtBEJTVQI8

The fight finish at 3:32.

I beat manus without dodging as well because poise in ds1 is overpowered and I just tanked through like half of his hits without getting good but yeah I was thinking of all of the souls games not just 1. DS3 is way easier with dodging.

I mean in 1 I didn't roll either for like half of the game. Still a single fight doesn't prove anything. Doing artorias and dragonslayers without rolling is the real challenge not manus.

Also even in your video the fight would've in fact been easier if you dodged those spells instead of having to stop and heal everytime.

So, you asked, this is for your:

https://youtu.be/ljyl35Ih1-M

https://youtu.be/tKZUMj6OYS4

It is easier to block. You dont have to time well, you only need to be patience, that is all.

First time I beat DS3 was using shields. Finish the game with havel's shield. The only real hard fights using shields is Midir and Sister Friede. Midir is really easier dodging and Friede have mix attacks with magic forcing you to use estus.

[Senki]

Trezoitao38님이 먼저 게시:

Arti님이 먼저 게시:

I beat manus without dodging as well because poise in ds1 is overpowered and I just tanked through like half of his hits without getting good but yeah I was thinking of all of the souls games not just 1. DS3 is way easier with dodging.

I mean in 1 I didn't roll either for like half of the game. Still a single fight doesn't prove anything. Doing artorias and dragonslayers without rolling is the real challenge not manus.

Also even in your video the fight would've in fact been easier if you dodged those spells instead of having to stop and heal everytime.

So, you asked, this is for your:

https://youtu.be/ljyl35Ih1-M

https://youtu.be/tKZUMj6OYS4

It is easier to block. You dont have to time well, you only need to be patience, that is all.

First time I beat DS3 was using shields. Finish the game with havel's shield. The only real hard fights using shields is Midir and Sister Friede. Midir is really easier dodging and Friede have mix attacks with magic forcing you to use estus.

Depends on what your definition of easier is. Tanking easily dodgeable spells/hits just for a ''no rolling'' challenge or whatever isn't easier than just dodging.

I mean you can use both blocking and dodging, I don't see the point in refusing to use an useful tool and saying that it's easier with blocking like they can't be used together.

[Trezoitao38]

Of course you can use both. But, it is easier to go full block compared to go full dodge. Which nulify your sentence that going without dodge is only for experienced players. The contrary is true. Blocking is safe, you dont loose health, only stamina in most cases and stamina regenerates. You only have to hold your button to block a attack. I cant even understand why this can be difficult.

[Senki]

Trezoitao38님이 먼저 게시:

Of course you can use both. But, it is easier to go full block compared to go full dodge. Which nulify your sentence that going without dodge is only for experienced players. The contrary is true. Blocking is safe, you dont loose health, only stamina in most cases and stamina regenerates. You only have to hold your button to block a attack. I cant even understand why this can be difficult.

I still think it's only for experienced players and only extra challenge for no reason to play without dodge. There are many situations where dodging saves your life and where blocking can't solve everything because you can run out of stamina. Especially in ds3