Ultra Heavy Weapons are... useless in PvP again (called it)

[Veolfen]

Since the game retained most of the DKS3 mechanics, ultra heavy weapons will be useless in pvp again.
Sadly the rolls are too quick and permissive in DKS3 and now Elden Ring, making it impossible to land punishing hit with an Ultra Greatsword or a Great hammer on people who spam rolls around you.
Even with poise, there's a big chance people will be able to roll in, land a hit and roll out without getting punished, even if you mastered the unlocked tech, just because of the amount of invincibility frames the rolls provide.

The game looks ultra promising but it feels that for pvp the weapon variety will be as limited as it was in DKS3 (unique weapons & quick weapons).

EDIT : Of course it's just prediction & superstition by looking at the gameplay, looking at how rolls are effective and how the pvp plays out for the moment. Also i'm probably going too far when i spoke of the weapon variety that will suffer in pvp : i'll say that it's more reasonable to guess that mostly slow heavy weapons will be impacted by this fast paced gameplay.

EDIT post release : Guess i was right

[Omastar]

LongParsnip の投稿を引用：

MegaClaus の投稿を引用：

Yes because noobveil is sooo much fun...

Lol we all know Katana users only know how to roll and mash RB.

I have always used Zweihander.

Basically everyone with a katana:
L2 + R1
L2 + R1
L2 + R1
L2 + R1
L2 + R1

and the occasional

L2 + R2

[???]

lmao colossal swords kick ass in PVP though.

[numbers]

??? の投稿を引用：

lmao colossal swords kick ass in PVP though.

They're only good in low level pvp where no one knows how to respect hyper armor. Anyone with any semblance of knowledge will never get hit by a collosal sword other than the poke and the amount of effort you need to make them work is better put into a more versatile weapon.

[Sir Latrine de Bretagne]

UGS were always staple in PVP. Wide swing, long range, hyper armor, kill in 2-3 hits. That being said, Ultras are no metaslaves weapons, I will give you that.

[Omastar]

Sir Latrine de Bretagne の投稿を引用：

UGS were always staple in PVP. Wide swing, long range, hyper armor, kill in 2-3 hits. That being said, Ultras are no metaslaves weapons, I will give you that.

I don't ever recall them being a "staple" in PvP.

[Cooperal]

Don't forget that crouch + light attack will enable you to execute the same move as a dodge-attack, and can be spammed in pretty fast succession. The colossal swords dodge-attack is a fast, long-reaching stab. I find it pretty good for whiffing people who are trying to push me backwards, or for roll-catching.

And don't forget the jump attacks.

Elden Ring also features hyper-armor just like DS3, which you may think of as a clue toward the way that the weapon is intended to be used. Instead of getting your attacks interrupted like you would with lighter weapons, you can power through enemy blows in hopes of making a favourable trade. And to that end, it looks like the suggestion is to pair heavy weapons with heavy armor.

So yeah. Rock, paper, scissor your opponents with the dodge/crouch attacks + jump attacks and the occasional combo swing. Fake out the dodge and jump attacks sometimes. And hope they didn't bring a dagger with hoarfrost stomp.

[Nero Armis]

Cooperal の投稿を引用：

Don't forget that crouch + light attack will enable you to execute the same move as a dodge-attack, and can be spammed in pretty fast succession. The colossal swords dodge-attack is a fast, long-reaching stab. I find it pretty good for whiffing people who are trying to push me backwards, or for roll-catching.

And don't forget the jump attacks.

Elden Ring also features hyper-armor just like DS3, which you may think of as a clue toward the way that the weapon is intended to be used. Instead of getting your attacks interrupted like you would with lighter weapons, you can power through enemy blows in hopes of making a favourable trade. And to that end, it looks like the suggestion is to pair heavy weapons with heavy armor.

So yeah. Rock, paper, scissor your opponents with the dodge/crouch attacks + jump attacks and the occasional combo swing. Fake out the dodge and jump attacks sometimes. And hope they didn't bring a dagger with hoarfrost stomp.

I have never had any of this hyper armor. I am sitting at 69 poise. A dagger is able to stun lock me in mid swing.
Just my experience. Of course I could have more but that would require over 40 points into endurance to have also heavy armor.

Feels very off from dks 3. And I mained only ultras in that game as well as in dks 2.
Could also just be really bad luck. But you never feel safe even when doing stomp swing I get bumped out of it.

You could be right. And I could be wrong. I also think that the lack of vertical swings play in part of the Ugs falling short as well. Especially in pvp when your wanting to just focus on one target and instead your 1 hand combo is the exact same as two handed..But that is more of a gripe I have with the game and as you said. Is workable due to new ways to fight. ( vertical without pressing R2 )

[Intra]

This meta is skill and spell spam, ultras have no place. Might be Scholar's Shield + magic parry meta instead.

[wildflower]

I don't know about this whole again thing, My main DS3 character relied on an Lothric Knight Greatsword from before and after meta level and did very well in pvp. In Elden Ring, they are even more versatile than they were in 3. There are tons of builds that use ultras and do well, and if you actually do PVP I have no clue how you've yet to encounter one of them.

[ZTL-Altima]

Veolfen の投稿を引用：

Since the game retained most of the DKS3 mechanics, ultra heavy weapons will be useless in pvp again.

Game is nothing like DS3.

[Veolfen]

Don't forget I'm ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because i'm one of those DKS2 players (the only good pvp dks games had) who's a nostalgic freak and can't handle the fact ultra weapons are getting worse with DKS3 and now Elden Ring.

But there's indeed the crouch light attack technique that works, but it kinda sucks playing with ultras like this. Playing with quickstep is quite funny too.

And an other point : Right now i'm having the best time with ultra weapons, winning a lot of fights and invasion with them. Doesn't mean i can't figure out that they're bad.

MegaClaus の投稿を引用：

Veolfen の投稿を引用：

Since the game retained most of the DKS3 mechanics, ultra heavy weapons will be useless in pvp again.
Sadly the rolls are too quick and permissive in DKS3 and now Elden Ring, making it impossible to land punishing hit with an Ultra Greatsword or a Great hammer on people who spam rolls around you.
Even with poise, there's a big chance people will be able to roll in, land a hit and roll out without getting punished, even if you mastered the unlocked tech, just because of the amount of invincibility frames the rolls provide.

The game looks ultra promising but it feels that for pvp the weapon variety will be as limited as it was in DKS3 (unique weapons & quick weapons).

EDIT : Of course it's just prediction & superstition by looking at the gameplay, looking at how rolls are effective and how the pvp plays out for the moment. Also i'm probably going too far when i spoke of the weapon variety that will suffer in pvp : i'll say that it's more reasonable to guess that mostly slow heavy weapons will be impacted by this fast paced gameplay.

EDIT post release : Guess i was right

You literally called nothing, lmao. Just because you are bad with UGS doesnt mean its impossible to pvp with it. I, for example rarely lose as an invader and when i lose its against 2-3 people spamming the same broken tracking spells. UGS deletes melee players, especially when powerstanced. Gotta know when to roll catch them.

Don't worry, for the moment almost everything proves i'm right and you didn't bring anything to the table to prove me wrong except personal attacks.
Enjoy the game PvP, it's the best time to play when almost everyone is bad & careless, everything works in those time. Once PvP will be the only thing keeping people on the game and the tryhard will be the only thing left, time will prove that my point was right once again :p

Parsify の投稿を引用：

Veolfen の投稿を引用：

Since the game retained most of the DKS3 mechanics, ultra heavy weapons will be useless in pvp again.

Game is nothing like DS3.

You're weird man, there's some changes but "game is nothing like DS3" is ultra wrong. Dodge rolls are the sames, weapons moveset are literally the same except ultra weapons who got mostly worse moveset and their damages scale poorly compared to 3 times lighter weapons (not saying their damages are ultralow, saying that maybe those quick katanas and greatsword are a tad too damaging).
Also back then I was making an analysis based on trailers, now the gameplay is proof that it was indeed dks3 gameplay.

[Nyapano]

Dude what, the big weapons slap.
Literally *and* metaphorically, they're powerhouses. The challenge is landing the hit, the reward is only needing to land one or two of them for a kill.

Of course it's going to be tough to land a hit, if they're almost unblockable, un-tankable, and unstoppable. (Exceptions of course, there are some wild builds you can piece together)
You need to be creative with your swings, your timing and your ashes of war.

That said, this game heavily glorifies and rewards versatility and adaptability in both PvP and PvE.
If you're relying on any single fighting style to win, you're already fighting an uphill battle. In PvE, the world just doesn't accommodate that. In PvP, players will catch on fast, with how to dodge, counter, interrupt, etc.
There are some that hold up better against that (on account of literally being broken and in need of fixing, but generally speaking at least.)
If you're relying solely on the biggest of the big, with no prepared alternatives equipped, that'll be your problem right there.

[Veolfen]

Yep I can now conclude this topic :

I was right from the start.

Except the crouch UGS stab & the jump attacks that work thanks to latency, most heavy weapons (Massive greatswords, greataxes and greathammers) have unusable garbage attack animations that make them suck in pvp and even with the buffs, the damage isn't enough to compensate useless animations.

Unless you spam crouch stab & jump attacks with UGS, but that's lame lol

[󠁳 ⁧HardLimiter]

If I play PvP, only enemies with a ultra heavy sword can kill me. (Samurai, 3x bleed effect).

Because they use spells on it with have a high dmg with huge aoe.

[Tao314zdin]

Not even close.

There is passive poise now and ashes of war that can be slapped on most weapons, so those big boys can 100-0 a lot of builds by landing say 1 pebble for near 2K damage.
+some UGS have fast poke
+jumping attacks can be useful

Now big weapons with fixed ashes and no poke are mostly weak or situational, but the same can be said about a lot of faster ones.