Ultra Heavy Weapons are... useless in PvP again (called it)

[Veolfen]

Since the game retained most of the DKS3 mechanics, ultra heavy weapons will be useless in pvp again.
Sadly the rolls are too quick and permissive in DKS3 and now Elden Ring, making it impossible to land punishing hit with an Ultra Greatsword or a Great hammer on people who spam rolls around you.
Even with poise, there's a big chance people will be able to roll in, land a hit and roll out without getting punished, even if you mastered the unlocked tech, just because of the amount of invincibility frames the rolls provide.

The game looks ultra promising but it feels that for pvp the weapon variety will be as limited as it was in DKS3 (unique weapons & quick weapons).

EDIT : Of course it's just prediction & superstition by looking at the gameplay, looking at how rolls are effective and how the pvp plays out for the moment. Also i'm probably going too far when i spoke of the weapon variety that will suffer in pvp : i'll say that it's more reasonable to guess that mostly slow heavy weapons will be impacted by this fast paced gameplay.

EDIT post release : Guess i was right

[kkiri]

Practically non-existent backstab, Strength as more versatile stat and the return of "true" poise are already making ultra great weapons potentially OP. Also i-framed jump with R2 slam will be absolutely devastating.

[Veolfen]

Originally posted by causality:

Originally posted by Veolfen:

Since the game retained most of the DKS3 mechanics, ultra heavy weapons will be useless in pvp again.
Sadly the rolls are too quick and permissive in DKS3 and now Elden Ring, making it impossible to land punishing hit with an Ultra Greatsword or a Great hammer on people who spam rolls around you.
Even with poise, there's a big chance people will be able to roll in, land a hit and roll out without getting punished, even if you mastered the unlocked tech, just because of the amount of invincibility frames the rolls provide.

The game looks ultra promising but it feels that for pvp the weapon variety will be as limited as it was in DKS3 (unique weapons & quick weapons).

EDIT : Of course it's just prediction & superstition by looking at the gameplay, looking at how rolls are effective and how the pvp plays out for the moment. Also i'm probably going too far when i spoke of the weapon variety that will suffer in pvp : i'll say that it's more reasonable to guess that mostly slow heavy weapons will be impacted by this fast paced gameplay.

I do fine with UGS in pvp, seems more like a player specific issue. Just get better at the game. :lunar2019piginablanket:

Because you feel like you're doing fine doesn't mean it is. That's just you who satisfy yourself with the wins you get against bad/not focused players.

If you actually look at frame datas, weapon animations and look to win most of your pvp duels, you'll notice the flaws of most of the heavy weapons that you can dodge on react, sometimes even twice if you do your first dodge too early. You can go as far as saying a broken straight sword is better than an UGS because it has a straight sword moveset.

Anyway it has been detailed over & over here and recognized by all decently leveled pvp players who spoke about weapon balance on DKS3 on reddit, youtube videos etc... DKS3 is too fluid & fast (mostly because of very strong rolls with a lot of iframes) for heavy weapons to work. And you also need to sacrifice a lot because you need to split your stats more just to have the capacity to wield those huge weapons.

Originally posted by kkiri:

Practically non-existent backstab, Strength as more versatile stat and return of "true" poise are already making ultra great weapons potentially OP. Also iframed jump with R2 slam will be absolutely devastating.

Yeah the backstab system of DKS3 was okayish too. The main problem with heavy weapons was to actually connect a hit on someone not willing to get hit.

The fact that the strength is gonna be the stat that increase carry weight is a big good news for heavy weapons builds who had to strip and sacrifice stats compared to a pure dex build, just to be able to wield the weapon.

With the return of true poise they might have a chance indeed, we'll need to see tho because if rolling iframe are still this high and heavy weapons still this slow, it might be still mathematically possible to hit a greatweapon user without getting hit in return. You just won't be able to combo them/interrupt them. (so longer TTK, but you'd still be able to beat them without being hit once)
Yeah gotta see what that jump R2 slam gonna do once people get used to the Elden Ring Pvp.

[RocketMan]

Originally posted by Harrison Ford:

What? What are you talking about? Ultras aren't useless. You just don't know how to use them. I had great success with them in DS3 from the poise alone.

That curved greatsword from the farron area on a poise build was so much fun for pvp.
Granted it wasn't an ugs but poise builds definitely had their place.

[MundM]

What are you talking about? Greatswords are you're go to weapon, because of high damage + poise / hyperarmor.

[Nyapano]

Ah man, if only there was a way to deal with people spamming roll...
Like perhaps a resource that gets spent with every roll they do, only recharging when they stop, giving you a window of opportunity...

I mean, why not go a step further?
Why should someone be able to spam roll, and then fill that opportunity window with a flurry of attacks to keep you back until they can roll again?
Make the attacks draw from the same resource.
They can either attack or roll, that sounds good!
Gosh, what would we call this resource? Energy is pretty nice, but to really hammer home that it's a more "physical" and not magical type of resource, perhaps... Stamina?

[Veolfen]

Originally posted by SnF Emi - ♀Nyapano♀:

Ah man, if only there was a way to deal with people spamming roll...
Like perhaps a resource that gets spent with every roll they do, only recharging when they stop, giving you a window of opportunity...

I mean, why not go a step further?
Why should someone be able to spam roll, and then fill that opportunity window with a flurry of attacks to keep you back until they can roll again?
Make the attacks draw from the same resource.
They can either attack or roll, that sounds good!
Gosh, what would we call this resource? Energy is pretty nice, but to really hammer home that it's a more "physical" and not magical type of resource, perhaps... Stamina?

Aaah condescendance...
The matter is about people with a decent level and not people who randomly spam roll. Rolling cost less stamina than ultra weapons attack.
You can't attack on reaction with an ultra weapon because the ennemy can roll out before your hit connect.
So you can only "guess" with an ultra weapon. You have to launch your attack BEFORE the ennemy initiate his. The thing is, the ennemy can play around your guessing game and just wait that use your stamina swinging this big stick while he just roll through them till you stop (so he can land 1 hit, and roll away anyway, he still gonna have more stamina left than you).

It's a mathematical problem where rolls have too much iframes making them able to easily pass through slow heavy attacks that are easy to read.

The subject isn't about your "feelings" on DKS3 pvp, since it has been proven hundred times on multiple platforms that slow weapons (unless they have a very special/effective move) don't work at a decent level of pvp.

The point of this topic is hoping this problem doesn't translate to Elden Ring.
KKiri intervention is what stays on point with the topic for example.

[MundM]

Originally posted by Veolfen:

Originally posted by SnF Emi - ♀Nyapano♀:

Ah man, if only there was a way to deal with people spamming roll...
Like perhaps a resource that gets spent with every roll they do, only recharging when they stop, giving you a window of opportunity...

I mean, why not go a step further?
Why should someone be able to spam roll, and then fill that opportunity window with a flurry of attacks to keep you back until they can roll again?
Make the attacks draw from the same resource.
They can either attack or roll, that sounds good!
Gosh, what would we call this resource? Energy is pretty nice, but to really hammer home that it's a more "physical" and not magical type of resource, perhaps... Stamina?

Aaah condescendance. The matter is about people with a decent level and not people who randomly spam roll. Rolling cost less stamina than ultra weapons attack.
You can't attack on reaction with an ultra weapon because the ennemy can roll out before your hit connect.
So you can only "guess" with an ultra weapon. The thing is, the ennemy can play around your guessing game and just wait that use your stamina swinging this big stick while he just roll through them till you stop (so he can land 1 hit, and roll away anyway, he still gonna have more stamina left than you).

It's a mathematical problem where rolls have too much iframes making them able to easily pass through slow heavy attacks that are easy to read.

Heavy weapons still dominate pvp in DS3, so I'm not sure what your issue is. Do you just ignore the hyper armor frames you get with a heavy weapon? If yes, then it just sounds like you want heavy weapons to be op and nobody can roll away or use something smaller against them. Spacing and timing is just as important as dodging and hit trading. If you fail at knowing when to swing your heavy weapon, then you deserve to get punished. If you are a one trick pony and all you can do is swing a giant club, then why do you believe you deserve to have a chance against anyone? DS3 already provides you with lots of tools, and Elden Ring will have even more. Don't complain because your single minded technique is outplayed by everyone.

[AH-1 Cobra]

I quit using ultras in DS3 right after they nerfed FUGS and Profaned. FUGS used to be able to get close to 800 AR pure physical with no buffs of any sort.

I found greatswords to be better than ultras, post-AR nerf (more accurately, gutted) on the top ultras, because greatswords have better move sets.

Also, Ultras can be exploited in PVP very easily in 3. To even be competitive, you gotta rely on landing a parry, so if you use an ultra, you better get comfortable parry fishing, because that's the only way you hope to beat anyone decent.

You want to exploit an ultra in DS3? Grab a thrall axe or a dagger, or any quick stepping weapon, 2h it. Attack - quickstep, or quickstep in, attack, quick step out. Only ever swinging once. If they don't land a parry, they can't hit you. But, it's not difficult to be sneaky/slippery, and if you are, they literally can't hit you. The reason they can't is frames. If you press a frame advantage against ultras in PVP, there's not a whole lot they can do other than parry or swap to a sidearm. And dagger/thrall axe is too fast to reaction parry. Dagger and thrall axe are both pretty bad against straight swords, so that's the side arm you want as an ultra user to counter peeps using quick stepping against you.

HOWEVER, straight swords, curved swords, thrusting swords, spears, can also press a frame advantage against Ultras. Meaning poke/swing once=> roll, repeat. Or katanas with the rushing poke. The later is not that hard to parry though, because it's relatively predictable. Even if you're only 50/50 on rushing poke parries, they lose the fight 100% of the time.

So, to sum it up, Ultras are not that good against competent players. But they're devastating against greedy players. I'd say they're better for invasions than they are for 1 on 1 PVP matches at the usual places.

[Nyapano]

Originally posted by Veolfen:

Originally posted by SnF Emi - ♀Nyapano♀:

Ah man, if only there was a way to deal with people spamming roll...
Like perhaps a resource that gets spent with every roll they do, only recharging when they stop, giving you a window of opportunity...

I mean, why not go a step further?
Why should someone be able to spam roll, and then fill that opportunity window with a flurry of attacks to keep you back until they can roll again?
Make the attacks draw from the same resource.
They can either attack or roll, that sounds good!
Gosh, what would we call this resource? Energy is pretty nice, but to really hammer home that it's a more "physical" and not magical type of resource, perhaps... Stamina?

Aaah condescendance...
The matter is about people with a decent level and not people who randomly spam roll. Rolling cost less stamina than ultra weapons attack.
You can't attack on reaction with an ultra weapon because the ennemy can roll out before your hit connect.
So you can only "guess" with an ultra weapon. You have to launch your attack BEFORE the ennemy initiate his. The thing is, the ennemy can play around your guessing game and just wait that use your stamina swinging this big stick while he just roll through them till you stop (so he can land 1 hit, and roll away anyway, he still gonna have more stamina left than you).

It's a mathematical problem where rolls have too much iframes making them able to easily pass through slow heavy attacks that are easy to read.

The subject isn't about your "feelings" on DKS3 pvp, since it has been proven hundred times on multiple platforms that slow weapons (unless they have a very special/effective move) don't work at a decent level of pvp.

The point of this topic is hoping this problem doesn't translate to Elden Ring.
KKiri intervention is what stays on point with the topic for example.

"The matter is about people with a decent level and not people who randomly spam roll."
really?
then why was your first point literally
"Sadly the rolls are too quick and permissive in DKS3 and now Elden Ring, making it impossible to land punishing hit with an Ultra Greatsword or a Great hammer on people who spam rolls around you."

See that last part? Where you specifically call out the issue of "people who spam rolls around you."?
'Cause I see it.

To the rest of your reply-
As far as I can find out, we haven't seen Ultra weapons yet. We've seen how fast people roll, sure. But we don't know the range and the speed (or lack thereof) of that weapon type. Sure, we can make reasonable assumptions, but you're calling a weapon useless for PvP before we even see them.

That said, they're good in DS3, like you said "feelings" don't matter (idk who you're quoting with that, but oh well)
Fact is, they're good if you know how to use them. Like with any weapon, it comes down to the user's skill first, and the weapon's capabilities second. A worthless player will almost always lose PvP regardless of weapon choice (With some obvious exceptions, of course)
A skilled player can get away with using whatever they're best acquainted with.

That's not to say, of course, that any weapon is good, or that no weapons are objectively bad. Because that's not true.
My point is, they aren't useless in DS3, and we haven't even seen them in Elden Ring.
We can guess about what they'll be, how useful/useless, but until we see them, we don't know. We can't know.
So the best we can do, is take what we do know (DS3 Ultra weapons are viable) and wait until it's proven wrong in Elden Ring.

[causality]

I still don't understand what the OP is asking for. Do they want ultras to have a 9f r1 from neutral which would resolve faster than curved swords, daggers and the fastest recorded human reaction time? Because if we're looking at frame data in a vacuum while disregarding external factors such as latency like OP suggested with regard to reactions, then the only thing I've taken from their posts is how they aren't satisfied with ultras having clear weaknesses normally attributed to heavy weapons in fighting games.

[M͂͒̀λgi͡caℓ Ήo͓̽ﻇo̴]

ru casul? it's why u swap out more than 1 wep to catch them off guard.

[Plata0Plomo]

LUL ultras useless on DS3........ learn to play man DS3 end game pvp is heavily based on hyperarmor and the ultra greatswords and the ultrahammers have the best poise hyperarmor of the game

But i agree Ds2 had the best balance(far from perfect just remember the greatlance ) of PVP and the dual wield make viable a lot of light weapons for end game like curved swords and katanas weapons that are near non existent on ds3 pvp just beacuse have no hyperarmor


Elden Ring have the DS1 poise ultra-weapons or dual greatswords for streng and dual wield katanas-curved swords- spears for dex seems to be the way to PVP to avoid tanking issues

[Silence Suzuka]

You just need to practice more about how to time your attack. Even with no armor and blood ring, you still have a short period between your rolling. You can hit anyone roll spam around you if you make your attack at right time.

[JonWoo]

A few weeks ago there was another post talking about how UGSs are going to be the king of PvP.

Let's see who ends up being right or if they're both wrong.

[Plata0Plomo]

Originally posted by Jonwoo89:

A few weeks ago there was another post talking about how UGSs are going to be the king of PvP.

Let's see who ends up being right or if they're both wrong.

all depends of how strong will be the poise stat and if dual wield light weapons are strong enought to break high poise with a combined attack at least there is not unstoppable combos like on DS3(splitleaf kill on 1 combo and other weapons) on the closed beta we will see on release of course will release broken and unbalanced like all souls(ds1 miracles and ds2 dark magic flashbacks XD)