LORE QUESTION ( SPOILER )

[DELAMAIN]

I am bit lost.
Why Miquela is evil and we dont help him?
Who is Midra?
Why Messmer burned those ppl?
And what finqly thise scene from trailer with Marika and bodies around mean?

[Action Man]

Based on what I've seen in the game.

Miquella wants his forced peace where everyone loves him. It doesn't matter what anyone else wants. He's subverting everyone's free will to benefit himself.

Midra was tortured by the Hornsent and has fought off giving into the frenzied flame, but he finally loses it when you fight him.

The Hornsent committed atrocities against the Shamans - Marika's people I think? When Marika ascended, she took revenge on the Hornsent. Now the Hornsent you encounter over the course of the game wants revenge against Marika. Just an endless cycle of revenge.

I didn't want the trailer, so not really sure on that. Anything I've said here is in no way set in stone.

[Dollmaker]

Miquella intended to create a Age of Compassion, but he felt he had to rid himself of everything to be worthy of godhood, but this had the consequence of getting rid of everything that made him who he was, even his ability to feel love, by the end he had essentially become an emotionless monster that confused Peace with lack of free will.

Midra was a failed Lord of Frenzied Flame.

Messmer was sent by Marika to kill those that werent touched by grace, more specifically the Hornsent, its later revealed this was a personal vendetta from Marika due to what they did to her people, and yeah they deserved to be burned.

[5chneemensch]

Bewitching Branch: The Empyrean Miquella is loved by many people. Indeed, he has learned very well how to compel such affection.
Malenia: My brother will keep his promise. He possesses the wisdom, the allure, of a god - he is the most fearsome Empyrean of all.

Miquella learned how to use and abuse his power to his own benefit and made even Malenia quiver in her boots.
Miquella is any standard villain that wants to prevent suffering through mass hypnosis. I.e. the penultimate villain from Naruto with his Tsukiyomi.

[DELAMAIN]

Originally posted by 5chneemensch:

Bewitching Branch: The Empyrean Miquella is loved by many people. Indeed, he has learned very well how to compel such affection.
Malenia: My brother will keep his promise. He possesses the wisdom, the allure, of a god - he is the most fearsome Empyrean of all.

Miquella learned how to use and abuse his power to his own benefit and made even Malenia quiver in her boots.
Miquella is any standard villain that wants to prevent suffering through mass hypnosis. I.e. the penultimate villain from Naruto with his Tsukiyomi.

Naruto reference explains all)

[DELAMAIN]

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

Miquella intended to create a Age of Compassion, but he felt he had to rid himself of everything to be worthy of godhood, but this had the consequence of getting rid of everything that made him who he was, even his ability to feel love, by the end he had essentially become an emotionless monster that confused Peace with lack of free will.

Midra was a failed Lord of Frenzied Flame.

Messmer was sent by Marika to kill those that werent touched by grace, more specifically the Hornsent, its later revealed this was a personal vendetta from Marika due to what they did to her people, and yeah they deserved to be burned.

Was thinking in trailer she used grace from all bodies to acsend ( those holy strings )

[DELAMAIN]

As far as i know. DLC was ment to be in game from start and then was separated.
That explains some stuff..

So Miquella sent Malenia to kill Radahn tp sent his soul to him .
Malenia failed and we finished the job as tarnished in Caelid. That moment Miquella gained his soul and after we kill him his body taken by Saint Treena ( that horse boss in dlc ) .
Theb we kill Mogh and his body is taken to put Radahn soul in it.

No idea where the Mogh soul is tho.

Melina GEQ didnt liked the genocide and rised Godskins to fight Marika and so on all connects. Black flame = Melinas fire+death rune.

Now all connects))
Basically only good ending for ppl of Lands Between is Rannis ending.
Only end where suffering ends with elden ring is taken away.

Gold mask can be not bad also

[Silyon]

Miquella wanted to ascend to godhood. While doing so, he had to discard pieces of himself that we can find across the land. Among the pieces he discarded are more metaphysical concepts, like his doubts, his love, and his fears. In discarding these, he also discards his sense of self and his ability to empathize with people. Thus he becomes something of a sociopath, incapable of empathizing with or relating with the people he once wished to help. And thus he now thinks nothing of stripping free will from people and rewriting whole personalities if it would forward his goal of alleviating the suffering of the world. And he has not a single doubt about the rightness of his choices to boot.

Short form, becoming a god makes you a monster. Doesn't matter what kind of person you were.

As for the others, Midra is nothing more than some Hornsent Sage that studied the Frenzy Flame and was crucified for it. He failed to become a Lord of the Frenzy Flame until we poke him.

Messmer is a momma's boy. He legitimately loves his Mother, Marika, and is more than willing to do her dirty work for her. In this case, her dirty work includes the genocide of the entire Hornsent population, the emptying of Leyndell Gaols to form the body of the crusade's army, and the imprisonment of the Abyssal Serpent Messmer himself housed (like how Malenia houses the Scarlet Rot). Messmer doesn't realize the third reason until we end up killing him supposedly in his Mother's name, for we are her lord-elect and he can tell it.

[DELAMAIN]

Originally posted by Silyon:

Miquella wanted to ascend to godhood. While doing so, he had to discard pieces of himself that we can find across the land. Among the pieces he discarded are more metaphysical concepts, like his doubts, his love, and his fears. In discarding these, he also discards his sense of self and his ability to empathize with people. Thus he becomes something of a sociopath, incapable of empathizing with or relating with the people he once wished to help. And thus he now thinks nothing of stripping free will from people and rewriting whole personalities if it would forward his goal of alleviating the suffering of the world. And he has not a single doubt about the rightness of his choices to boot.

Short form, becoming a god makes you a monster. Doesn't matter what kind of person you were.

As for the others, Midra is nothing more than some Hornsent Sage that studied the Frenzy Flame and was crucified for it. He failed to become a Lord of the Frenzy Flame until we poke him.

Messmer is a momma's boy. He legitimately loves his Mother, Marika, and is more than willing to do her dirty work for her. In this case, her dirty work includes the genocide of the entire Hornsent population, the emptying of Leyndell Gaols to form the body of the crusade's army, and the imprisonment of the Abyssal Serpent Messmer himself housed (like how Malenia houses the Scarlet Rot). Messmer doesn't realize the third reason until we end up killing him supposedly in his Mother's name, for we are her lord-elect and he can tell it.

Wondering why Snake is sign of blasphemy if Messmer with mommy

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by DELAMAIN:

Originally posted by Silyon:

Miquella wanted to ascend to godhood. While doing so, he had to discard pieces of himself that we can find across the land. Among the pieces he discarded are more metaphysical concepts, like his doubts, his love, and his fears. In discarding these, he also discards his sense of self and his ability to empathize with people. Thus he becomes something of a sociopath, incapable of empathizing with or relating with the people he once wished to help. And thus he now thinks nothing of stripping free will from people and rewriting whole personalities if it would forward his goal of alleviating the suffering of the world. And he has not a single doubt about the rightness of his choices to boot.

Short form, becoming a god makes you a monster. Doesn't matter what kind of person you were.

As for the others, Midra is nothing more than some Hornsent Sage that studied the Frenzy Flame and was crucified for it. He failed to become a Lord of the Frenzy Flame until we poke him.

Messmer is a momma's boy. He legitimately loves his Mother, Marika, and is more than willing to do her dirty work for her. In this case, her dirty work includes the genocide of the entire Hornsent population, the emptying of Leyndell Gaols to form the body of the crusade's army, and the imprisonment of the Abyssal Serpent Messmer himself housed (like how Malenia houses the Scarlet Rot). Messmer doesn't realize the third reason until we end up killing him supposedly in his Mother's name, for we are her lord-elect and he can tell it.

Wondering why Snake is sign of blasphemy if Messmer with mommy

Messmer was born with the snake inside him, that’s why he had a seal in the form of his eye to keep it hidden and grant him light, but after removing it and destroying it, it allows the snake to fully consume him, embracing his curse.

Marika ultimately used Messmer for her revenge against the Hornsent and abandoned him in the Shadowlands, due to his curse that deprived him of light.

Messmer was the only member in his army that still believed Marika hadn’t abandoned him, that is until his final moments where he finally accepts the harsh reality, ending with him disowning her as his mother and cursing her with his dying breath.

[Silyon]

Originally posted by DELAMAIN:

Wondering why Snake is sign of blasphemy if Messmer with mommy

That is theory territory, there's very little in the game that makes a reference to serpents at all. A few things that make reference to the Abyss though, and I presume the Abyss and the Serpent became intertwined over time because one was the manifestation of the other.

Broad strokes, Marika is nominally the god of life and plenty, and her erdtree is the psudo-physical manifestation of that. The abyss represents the opposite, death and emptiness, and is represented by the world-devouring serpent that became Rykard's emblem and lives within Messmer. They're fundamentally opposing forces.

[palacentes]

Why Miquela is evil and we dont help him?

The cutscene after the final boss sheds some light on it... Miquella seems to only see himself, prob because he keeps charming people instead of connecting properly. His method of fixing the world is done the only way he knows, control... and he is very willing to sacrifice others do achieve it. Miquella is messed up as a character.

As for why dont we help him, well, the game wont let us. I mean, having your heart stolen and being a champion of Miquella + full power Rad at that? Thats the strongest team in the lands between. And he prob wont be mad at us for killing Malenia since he cant feel anything any more.



Who is Midra?

Someone the frenzied flame came in contact with. His whole thing was basically to show that "hornsent bad." The inquisitor's hunted him because they fear/ hate the flame of frenzy. Then his frenzy flame powers manifested, and prob burned his mansion and defeated the inquisitors that found him. He resisted fully transforming, at least, until the player slays him.

As for what the flame was doing there or why it chose him, I dont think the game tells us. We have Nanaya's torch that reveals that there was a previous Lord of frenzy flame candidate and she would carry his remains...maybe that why? but its really focused on "hornsent bad" not frenzied flame lore....




Why Messmer burned those ppl?

Marika's orders. Check messmer's lore, the boss gear, remebrance....etc....
She told her son to attack the hornsent, then left him/ stopped giving orders. It was in revenge for what the hornsent did. They were abusive and oppressive to non horned people before they became victims.

As for why she left him there... Marika apparently feared her own son's snake powers. She was quite paranoid as a ruler.



And what finqly thise scene from trailer with Marika and bodies around mean?

We know thats the divine gate from ansbach dialogue... and he hints that it is where Marika became a god. This trailer scene is her ascension into god hood, involving corpses and the divine gate.

as to how it works.... not much lore... we have the quest item "secret rite scroll" which says ""A lord will usher in a god's return,and the lord's soul will require a vessel."
Marika became this god, and she needed her soul( Lord) and a vessel.... which could be the glowing strands plucked in the trailer scene... possibly jar contents/ shaman pieces or maybe it was all the dead bodies as sacrifices... a great fusion of souls/runes? who knows,,,

whats interesting is that the hornsent corpse in the final area, are in death positions reaching towards the gate. Its as if they wanted/ anticipated some event related to it. While all the non hornsent corpses are afraid and seem to hide from it.

Perhaps Marika is the only successful Jar saint, and candidate to be a new god for the hornsent. ( all the jar people are women and look like marika, they even have a forehead rune that resembles marika's ....) Marika would turn on the hornsent, since she hates them.

It could also be why Marika continued the jar practice during her rule, ( think alexander the warrior jar, one full of dead heroes instead of unwilling shaman ). Perhaps despite the trauma, she's come to respect that this jar practice works.

[palacentes]

Originally posted by Silyon:

Originally posted by DELAMAIN:

Wondering why Snake is sign of blasphemy if Messmer with mommy

That is theory territory, there's very little in the game that makes a reference to serpents at all. A few things that make reference to the Abyss though, and I presume the Abyss and the Serpent became intertwined over time because one was the manifestation of the other.

Broad strokes, Marika is nominally the god of life and plenty, and her erdtree is the psudo-physical manifestation of that. The abyss represents the opposite, death and emptiness, and is represented by the world-devouring serpent that became Rykard's emblem and lives within Messmer. They're fundamentally opposing forces.

not a theory, we have things like blasphemous serpent blade... we even have it in Rykard's remembrance, where he refers to his transformation as " Road of Blasphemy".

"heresy refers a belief or opinion that does not agree with the official belief or opinion of a particular religion." - definition of blasphemy.

He worshipped the snake instead, a false god, at least to the golden order.

We also have serpent god's curved sword, - that says that people worshipped the snake before, in its item description.

[5chneemensch]

Originally posted by palacentes:

whats interesting is that the hornsent corpse in the final area, are in death positions reaching towards the gate. Its as if they wanted/ anticipated some event related to it. While all the non hornsent corpses are afraid and seem to hide from it.

Perhaps Marika is the only successful Jar saint, and candidate to be a new god for the hornsent. ( all the jar people are women and look like marika, they even have a forehead rune that resembles marika's ....) Marika would turn on the hornsent, since she hates them.

It could also be why Marika continued the jar practice during her rule, ( think alexander the warrior jar, one full of dead heroes instead of unwilling shaman ). Perhaps despite the trauma, she's come to respect that this jar practice works.

Galaxybrain moment. Marika was the first and only successor, but felt only hatred towards her "benefactors" as being the only one left alive. You could extend that thought and consider that the death of all shamans was the prerequisite for her to ascend. As in the top dogs power is shared equally between every living entity (see demon lore in Souls).

That said, I doubt that Marika believes the Jar practice works considering she was the only successful person to ascend. It's probably more likely that she's poacing them considering what Jar Bairn says, we see smashed jars at various tree locations and we find a Numen's Rune in the village after the attack. She's probably using them as a cheap way to funnel people to these trees as fertilizer and to funnel souls to the Erdtree (as no one dies due to the removal of the ROD).

Living Jar Shard says the jars are full of "magic" and I don't think that's shamans.

[Haru]

Miquella is not evil. He wants to make the world the bestest place ever.

Midra succumbed to the frenzy and was not strong enough to rise to the mantle of lord.

Messmer burns people because they deserve it.

[Wheee333ee33e3e]

You play as the villain of the story. You find yourself in the midst of some political and factional intrigue, with each faction having some good and some bad. Miquella will stop the killing and enforce peace - by mind control. Messmer is creating a safe space for the golden order by going on a genocidal rampage against the people who tortured his mother's race. Midra literally does nothing other than try to contain an evil God from spilling out.

You have the option of talking to them, befriending a faction, changing a faction by force, killing the leader and bending the followers to your will.

No, that's not the path you choose. You choose to kill everyone and everything you come across, like a psychopath. Testing your might and weapons against everyone, innocent, sinner, good, evil, strong or weak.

You end up literally killing everyone and everything, becoming the champion murder Hobo in both the lands of shadow and the lands between.

You take a 4 armed blue doll as your wife as she is the only one who can take your sick perversions, but more importantly, she'll send you to the stars, to meet and encounter fantastic beings, all the more interesting for you to kill and test your might.