Anybody else come back for the DLC and found one change needless in the base game?

[Necrophoria]

Did people seriously complain enough to have Torrent added to the Elden beast fight?

I fought him twice recently after my first playthrough 2 years ago, and completely missed that this was added. The fight is still manageable, and doubly so after you learn the moves. If anything I have more issues with Radagon to get to the beast, but the beast is easy enough to dodge in my view in comparison.

I am not really sure why this was added or who really thought Torrent was needed. Yeah the fight involves a lot of running but that's such a tiny complaint that it feels nit picky.

Not going to go the "git good" route with this, but really the fight was fine on its own. Sad to see FromSoft caving in to these sorts of things. They are deviating from their original design more often than not these days with the mainstream appeal.

Hell, this seeped into their other games. Armored Core VI also got huge nerfs to certain bosses which literally made them a joke afterwards. RIP pre-nerf balteus (iykyk), base game radahn, and now the elden beast I suppose, even if optional.

[Sgt. Flaw]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Necrophoria:

"you realize you are quoting something they did without user input"

BINGO. I think I'll take my money and leave now. User feedback and input played a part, and you FINALLY owned up to it.

You're looking way to deep into this considering all the people crying about the DLC....Everyone ♥♥♥♥♥ about quest design; they made them more elusive. Everyone ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about the endgame bosses including Malenia; they made them harder...It's quite obvious they are not breaking their vision.

Also, how did this one patch note be the indicator that they were trying appease a larger audience lol...Spirit summons, The Radahn nerf and even the multi enemy boss fight nerf wasn't enough of an indicator? They add torrent to Elden Beast and you now throw your arms up? The worst fight in the game? they have to strike a balance...running to a boss over and ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ over wasn't in their vision to begin with, and I'd argue other patch notes are more questionable. IDK man you're not being rational here...

Also, they don't listen to complaints..they look at how many people beat beast(the numbers).......I'm sure if From has something they don't like about a boss there are going to be complaints as well...It's only common correlation...iow: they don't read the forums

[Necrophoria]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Sgt. Flaw:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Necrophoria:

"you realize you are quoting something they did without user input"

BINGO. I think I'll take my money and leave now. User feedback and input played a part, and you FINALLY owned up to it.

You're looking way to deep into this considering all the people crying about the DLC....Everyone ♥♥♥♥♥ about quest design; they made them more elusive. Everyone ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about the endgame bosses including Malenia; they made them harder...It's quite obvious they are not breaking their vision.

Also, how did this one patch note be the indicator that they were trying appease a larger audience lol...Spirit summons, The Radahn nerf and even the multi enemy boss fight nerf wasn't enough of an indicator? They add torrent to Elden Beast and you now throw your arms up? The worst fight in the game? IDK man you're not being rational here

Literally the entire balance conversation went way off topic and off the rails. Admittedly I was baited into the discussion, but man does getting nagged at for sources where the evidence is clear is exhausting. It didnt take me too much time to find quotes from Miyazaki himself.

The point I originally intended to make with this post was to discuss the addition of Torrent, and why. I understand that it is simply that some folks thought it improved the fight, which I disagreed with. It certainly does affect the balance of the elden beast, but the change was made in favor of the audience feedback. Nobody needed this addition, which is the truth I think we all agree upon.

By extension, audience feedback is affecting balance to this day. With comments like what Miyazaki stated, it's a clear indication of From Software changing their identity as a developer, which is taking into account the feedback from a larger audience who consists of people who weren't raised used to a certain difficulty standard. It alienates them, and Miyazaki himself admitted it. What more evidence does one need? To argue that isn't the case is just folly.

[Sgt. Flaw]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Necrophoria:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Sgt. Flaw:

You're looking way to deep into this considering all the people crying about the DLC....Everyone ♥♥♥♥♥ about quest design; they made them more elusive. Everyone ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ about the endgame bosses including Malenia; they made them harder...It's quite obvious they are not breaking their vision.

Also, how did this one patch note be the indicator that they were trying appease a larger audience lol...Spirit summons, The Radahn nerf and even the multi enemy boss fight nerf wasn't enough of an indicator? They add torrent to Elden Beast and you now throw your arms up? The worst fight in the game? IDK man you're not being rational here

Literally the entire balance conversation went way off topic and off the rails. Admittedly I was baited into the discussion, but man does getting nagged at for sources where the evidence is clear is exhausting. It didnt take me too much time to find quotes from Miyazaki himself.

The point I originally intended to make with this post was to discuss the addition of Torrent, and why. I understand that it is simply that some folks thought it improved the fight, which I disagreed with. It certainly does affect the balance of the elden beast, but the change was made in favor of the audience feedback. Nobody needed this addition, which is the truth I think we all agree upon.

By extension, audience feedback is affecting balance to this day. With comments like what Miyazaki stated, it's a clear indication of From Software changing their identity as a developer, which is taking into account the feedback from a larger audience who consists of people who weren't raised used to a certain difficulty standard. It alienates them, and Miyazaki himself admitted it. What more evidence does one need?

I think there's more evidence to the contrary given the DLC...But, I see your point for games down the road...It really is a wait and see...but Miyazaki is the kinda guy who likes to hit you so he can say sorry later...

We'll see

You do have to remember Miyazaki is totally full of ♥♥♥♥ with everything he says...

[Necrophoria]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Sgt. Flaw:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Necrophoria:

Literally the entire balance conversation went way off topic and off the rails. Admittedly I was baited into the discussion, but man does getting nagged at for sources where the evidence is clear is exhausting. It didnt take me too much time to find quotes from Miyazaki himself.

The point I originally intended to make with this post was to discuss the addition of Torrent, and why. I understand that it is simply that some folks thought it improved the fight, which I disagreed with. It certainly does affect the balance of the elden beast, but the change was made in favor of the audience feedback. Nobody needed this addition, which is the truth I think we all agree upon.

By extension, audience feedback is affecting balance to this day. With comments like what Miyazaki stated, it's a clear indication of From Software changing their identity as a developer, which is taking into account the feedback from a larger audience who consists of people who weren't raised used to a certain difficulty standard. It alienates them, and Miyazaki himself admitted it. What more evidence does one need?

I think there's more evidence to the contrary given the DLC...But, I see your point for games down the road...It really is a wait and see...but Miyazaki is the kinda guy who likes to hit you so he can say sorry later...

We'll see

Thank you! I really wish certain people disagreed respectfully as you did. On the DLC, frankly I felt rushed to complete it because given the state this series is in now, it's very likely the consort fight will change, and there will certainly be disagreements on it. I think I'll just lurk the forums then.

[Echorion]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Necrophoria:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από zero:

i mean probably because its a big arena with nothing in it that the boss has several moves to go to the far ends of it.

quality of life change if there ever was one.

Yeah, but adding torrent in the mix adds more mobility than the boss was originally balanced for imo. A double jump is more than enough of a buff tied with the speed to trivialize a lot of the challenge i my view.

You can now outrun calmly the elden stars spell and easily jump over the rings on the floor.

Barely if at all. Even if it did make it easier the good far out weighs the bad here; it's a massive QOL improvement for that fight, and it also makes the most sense thematically as well.

Makes the fight more fluid, dynamic, and better paced. Especially if you are fighting them no longer for the first time, which is the case for many at this point.

Just all around a much better experience.

Also, you can just....not use Torrent if you choose to. So if you still want to hold W a bunch, you can.

[Sgt. Flaw]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Necrophoria:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Sgt. Flaw:

I think there's more evidence to the contrary given the DLC...But, I see your point for games down the road...It really is a wait and see...but Miyazaki is the kinda guy who likes to hit you so he can say sorry later...

We'll see

Thank you! I really wish certain people disagreed respectfully as you did. On the DLC, frankly I felt rushed to complete it because given the state this series is in now, it's very likely the consort fight will change, and there will certainly be disagreements on it. I think I'll just lurk the forums then.

Miyazaki's not stupid...He's actually ingenious

He knows the difficulty of his games creates engagement...He's not going to loose all his youtube views advertising the game. Notice he patched torrent into Elden Beast after the DLC dropped...It's because it's old news anyway.

Still have to beat Mogh to enter a high priced DLC lol...he knows his trolling is the top reason for his games popularity...

He made it so you have to youtube how to finish quests and bosses to increase his internet presence...That's why it's even tougher to finish quests in the DLC...

People love watching no hit runs on some of the hardest bosses in gaming...He knows this is why he's successful.

[Necrophoria]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Sgt. Flaw:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Necrophoria:

Thank you! I really wish certain people disagreed respectfully as you did. On the DLC, frankly I felt rushed to complete it because given the state this series is in now, it's very likely the consort fight will change, and there will certainly be disagreements on it. I think I'll just lurk the forums then.

Miyazaki's not stupid...He's actually ingenious

He knows the difficulty of his games creates engagement...He's not going to loose all his youtube views advertising the game. Notice he patched torrent into Elden Beast after the DLC dropped...It's because it's old news anyway.

Still have to beat Mogh to enter a high priced DLC lol...he knows his trolling is the top reason for his games popularity...

He made it so you have to youtube how to finish quests and bosses to increase his internet presence...That's why it's even tougher to finish quests in the DLC...

People love watching no hit runs on some of the hardest bosses in gaming...He knows this is why he's successful.

He certainly knows how to garner the attention, I'll give it that. It's good marketing strategies that also take advantage of social media presence. FromSoft is definitely more business minded nowadays than they used to be, which kinda ties into what I was arguing earlier.

[Chris1]

From Soft doesn't respond to feedback so much as fix things that are clearly broken. With the way the arena was designed and the way Elden Beast moves around the arena, it seemed obvious to many players that FromSoft had the idea to include Torrent for the final boss fight. Maybe they ran out of time, maybe they didn't get around to it, maybe there were bugs during development they couldn't squash and it just never became a priority.

Lots of people have been complaining for years about how Malenia is unfair. They never made that fight easier. If anything, they made it harder by fixing the glitches related to the phase 2 transition (ie, now if you critical kill Malenia's first phase she gets extra health instead of starting phase 2 with 1 hp).

They don't make things easier because of audience feedback, they fix and adjust things only when things are not working as designed. Case in point was launch Radahn had the wonkiest hitboxes imaginable. They accidentally reduced his damage in a subsequent patch attempting to fix the hitboxes, and then prompted addressed that oversight by scaling the damage back up.

It's true Torrent changes the nature of the final boss fight slightly, but you don't have to summon Torrent if you don't want too. I have gotten in the habit of fighting Elden Beast without Torrent so I just don't summon, and the fight feels better that way to me. At the same time I can recognize that by enabling Torrent in the final fight, FromSoft probably always had the intention of making Torrent available and they finally made it happen.

As an aside, maybe it's just me, but I was doing another playthrough recently and noticed that the Cemetery Shade bosses seemed quite a bit more "slippery" then I remember. It made me question whether they adjusted some balance with this boss to do additional evasion maneuver's and teleporting around to avoid attacks. It was hard to tell since they usually go down in like 2 or 3 hits anyway, but the fight seemed to last much longer than I remember due to the guy moving around the whole arena. Might have just been RNG.

[Necrophoria]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/olliebarder/2019/06/22/masanori-takeuchi-talks-about-the-possible-future-of-armored-core/

Here's another article showing the shift towards mass appeal. Not Miyazaki, but from one of their producers and on Armored Core instead.

"When we're making these dark fantasy games, we're obviously as Japanese distanced somewhat from that medieval European fantasy and we have to give our own spin on that. It's a different approach from how we've approached mecha games. These are very heavily inspired by Japanese robot anime – we use that as a base of inspiration – but if we were to make something modern, something new, we'd need to consider how to appeal to Europeans or Americans.

Obviously we'd put our own flavor in it as well, but we need to consider how it would appeal to a wide audience and people who didn't get brought up on robot anime."

I've been following this company for a very long time, and have seen this come about very gradually, but it's certain for sure.

[Vile-Pile]

I think it's fine that they added Torrent to the Elden Beast fight because otherwise it's kind of impossible to do it level 1 because of Elden Stars. It makes Elden Stars dodgable, but otherwise I just prefer fighting Elden Beast normally and wouldn't use Torrent for it, but I don't see the harm in having the option.

[UrbanNoodles]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Necrophoria:

Did people seriously complain enough to have Torrent added to the Elden beast fight?

I fought him twice recently after my first playthrough 2 years ago, and completely missed that this was added. The fight is still manageable, and doubly so after you learn the moves. If anything I have more issues with Radagon to get to the beast, but the beast is easy enough to dodge in my view in comparison.

I am not really sure why this was added or who really thought Torrent was needed. Yeah the fight involves a lot of running but that's such a tiny complaint that it feels nit picky.

Not going to go the "git good" route with this, but really the fight was fine on its own. Sad to see FromSoft caving in to these sorts of things. They are deviating from their original design more often than not these days with the mainstream appeal.

Hell, this seeped into their other games. Armored Core VI also got huge nerfs to certain bosses which literally made them a joke afterwards. RIP pre-nerf balteus (iykyk), base game radahn, and now the elden beast I suppose, even if optional.

To be quite frank, this change wasn't needed but it was very much welcomed. I have had countless playthroughs where the Elden Beast would just run from one side of the arena to the other for a solid 30 minutes straight.

[zero]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Necrophoria:

"you realize you are quoting something they did without user input"

BINGO. I think I'll take my money and leave now. User feedback and input played a part, and you FINALLY owned up to it.

bolded for you.

as per always, its very funny to claim patching things that are actually broken, like hit boxes, as some sorta of caving is very silly

[Are You Open Mind]

I think having torrent in the last phase of the final fight is the perfect way to end the game and should have been done from the start, you have had torrent from the beginning of the game and its cool to be able to use him at the end.

They introduced this new mechanic of horseback riding to not utilise it all that much, then had a final boss in a massive room and the player running constantly from one side to another.

Elden beast is a kinda boring and easy fight, but with Radagon before hand being a fun fight and now using torrent against elden beast i think the last fight as a whole is great

also, you don't have to use torrent if you dont want to, having options is good for everyone

[Necrophoria]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από zero:

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Necrophoria:

"you realize you are quoting something they did without user input"

BINGO. I think I'll take my money and leave now. User feedback and input played a part, and you FINALLY owned up to it.

bolded for you.

as per always, its very funny to claim patching things that are actually broken, like hit boxes, as some sorta of caving is very silly

Lol okay buddy. Even after giving you sources, quotes, an in depth analysis, etc all pointing to From Soft nowadays listening to feedback and adjusting the game in terms of balance and design to make sure they reach a wider audience you still come back with "wah. You're wrong and silly".

But I think at this point you have a comprehension issue 😊. Go back to bed.

[Necrophoria]

Legit you even stated it yourself lmao. Yes. User input was missing at release, and once it existed, changes were made.

We have your words in plain text for all to see.