Anybody else come back for the DLC and found one change needless in the base game?

[Necrophoria]

Did people seriously complain enough to have Torrent added to the Elden beast fight?

I fought him twice recently after my first playthrough 2 years ago, and completely missed that this was added. The fight is still manageable, and doubly so after you learn the moves. If anything I have more issues with Radagon to get to the beast, but the beast is easy enough to dodge in my view in comparison.

I am not really sure why this was added or who really thought Torrent was needed. Yeah the fight involves a lot of running but that's such a tiny complaint that it feels nit picky.

Not going to go the "git good" route with this, but really the fight was fine on its own. Sad to see FromSoft caving in to these sorts of things. They are deviating from their original design more often than not these days with the mainstream appeal.

Hell, this seeped into their other games. Armored Core VI also got huge nerfs to certain bosses which literally made them a joke afterwards. RIP pre-nerf balteus (iykyk), base game radahn, and now the elden beast I suppose, even if optional.

[Necrophoria]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von zero:

balance is what makes a fun game, ultimately, strange hitboxes, or tiresome slog are opposed to it, so it should simply be fixed.

same reason they hard nerfed zimmermans in ac6, cause it trivialized the game.

things need to be both "not too hard" and "not too easy".

Some find the fun in overcoming those challenges. That's what built this community from the ground up in my opinion. Prepare to die was the slogan ffs.

[Boredom_Incarnate]

The fight can be done without Torrent, sure. But the design of the fight and the room seems pretty clear it was meant to have Torrent available (and if not then what the heck were they on to accidentally make it that way).

Adding Torrent doesn't make it easier imo, it makes it a 20 minute shorter fight.

Same as my issue with a lot of Elden Ring, a lot of difficulty doesn't seem done as well and comes off as annoyance rather than difficulty.

[TK]

Now you can fight the final boss with your loyal buddy horse that has been with you from the start of the game, and somehow you need to cry about that?

[Necrophoria]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TK:

Now you can fight the final boss with your loyal buddy horse that has been with you from the start of the game, and somehow you need to cry about that?

Nah. Not crying. Just wondering why? Was it really for sentimental value then?

I can understand why some folks prefer to have torrent, but truly I do not think it was needed, especially since it was added due to feedback which reflects how much this new fanbase complains. It's why the difficulty debate is always a hot topic now.

[zero]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von zero:

balance is what makes a fun game, ultimately, strange hitboxes, or tiresome slog are opposed to it, so it should simply be fixed.

same reason they hard nerfed zimmermans in ac6, cause it trivialized the game.

things need to be both "not too hard" and "not too easy".

Some find the fun in overcoming those challenges. That's what built this community from the ground up in my opinion. Prepare to die was the slogan ffs.

there is a difference between a challenge because it was designed to be hard, and a challenge because they accidently made a hitbox the wrong shape for the attack.

fighting games thrive by doing their best to make hit and hurt boxes that are reasonable to the characters they are playing, if a person could nair and hit you from across the arena even though their model wasn't near you at all, people would be rightfully mad about it, and that is fundamentally the issue, the hitbox was wrong.

dark souls has never been about fighting jank for the sake of fighting jank, it has been about fighting interesting and challanging bosses that are *well designed*, and in every game there are patches balancing them, even dark souls, even demon souls.

difficulty should come from the encounter's design intent, not because of a flaw in programming.

[Necrophoria]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von zero:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

Some find the fun in overcoming those challenges. That's what built this community from the ground up in my opinion. Prepare to die was the slogan ffs.

there is a difference between a challenge because it was designed to be hard, and a challenge because they accidently made a hitbox the wrong shape for the attack.

fighting games thrive by doing their best to make hit and hurt boxes that are reasonable to the characters they are playing, if a person could nair and hit you from across the arena even though their model wasn't near you at all, people would be rightfully mad about it, and that is fundamentally the issue, the hitbox was wrong.

dark souls has never been about fighting jank for the sake of fighting jank, it has been about fighting interesting and challanging bosses that are *well designed*, and in every game there are patches balancing them, even dark souls, even demon souls.

difficulty should come from the encounter's design intent, not because of a flaw in programming.

That still doesn't diminish the fact that some of us, myself included, enjoyed overcoming even those challenges which can be argued as jank, but then again I know somebody signed off on the game being released with the jank included (even after play testing). That would include Miyazaki's signature somewhere too.

These changes are definitely user feedback driven, and not by initial design.

[zero]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von zero:

there is a difference between a challenge because it was designed to be hard, and a challenge because they accidently made a hitbox the wrong shape for the attack.

fighting games thrive by doing their best to make hit and hurt boxes that are reasonable to the characters they are playing, if a person could nair and hit you from across the arena even though their model wasn't near you at all, people would be rightfully mad about it, and that is fundamentally the issue, the hitbox was wrong.

dark souls has never been about fighting jank for the sake of fighting jank, it has been about fighting interesting and challanging bosses that are *well designed*, and in every game there are patches balancing them, even dark souls, even demon souls.

difficulty should come from the encounter's design intent, not because of a flaw in programming.

That still doesn't diminish the fact that some of us, myself included, enjoyed overcoming even those challenges which can be argued as jank, but then again I know somebody signed off on the game being released with the jank included (even after play testing). That would include Miyazaki's signature somewhere too.

thats fine, use mods if you want jank for the sake of jank, the point of patching is to ensure the playerbase gets an ejoyable experince so they can play the game the way it was intended to be played by the designers vision.

the dev team didin't want the incorrect hitbox, for obvious reasons, so they fix it.

they didn't want double zimmy's to ruin every boss fight in ac6, so they nerfed them, same thing.

and they didn't want players wasting their time on foot to travel a large arena for the sake of wasting time, so they gave us our horse.

[Titan]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von TK:

Now you can fight the final boss with your loyal buddy horse that has been with you from the start of the game, and somehow you need to cry about that?

Nah. Not crying. Just wondering why? Was it really for sentimental value then?

I can understand why some folks prefer to have torrent, but truly I do not think it was needed, especially since it was added due to feedback which reflects how much this new fanbase complains. It's why the difficulty debate is always a hot topic now.

It wasn't that the Elden Beast was too hard. The problem was how OBNOXIOUS it was to chase the bastard across the arena when he decided he needed some personal space. You're conflating difficulty with sheer annoyance, and if Torrent was available in the fight from the start I've no doubt you wouldn't be complaining about it right now.

And how is making changes off of user feedback a problem? If the majority of the community is saying "Hey this kind of sucks", isn't it generally correct to assume that there is indeed something that needs to be done about whatever people are complaining about?

[Necrophoria]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

Nah. Not crying. Just wondering why? Was it really for sentimental value then?

I can understand why some folks prefer to have torrent, but truly I do not think it was needed, especially since it was added due to feedback which reflects how much this new fanbase complains. It's why the difficulty debate is always a hot topic now.

It wasn't that the Elden Beast was too hard. The problem was how OBNOXIOUS it was to chase the bastard across the arena when he decided he needed some personal space. You're conflating difficulty with sheer annoyance, and if Torrent was available in the fight from the start I've no doubt you wouldn't be complaining about it right now.

I never once thought to use torrent. I said it earlier. From one fight (Radagon) to the next, I stayed on foot, not bothering to even press Y on a controller to see if it was available.

[Necrophoria]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von zero:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

That still doesn't diminish the fact that some of us, myself included, enjoyed overcoming even those challenges which can be argued as jank, but then again I know somebody signed off on the game being released with the jank included (even after play testing). That would include Miyazaki's signature somewhere too.

... the point of patching is to ensure the playerbase gets an ejoyable experince so they can play the game the way it was intended to be played by the designers vision.

That, my good sir, is certainly debatable with what I proposed occurred at release. It's not like hitboxes would've added crunch and delays to simply change a few numbers. It took player feedback to ultimately change their minds, just like Torrent.

[Titan]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

It wasn't that the Elden Beast was too hard. The problem was how OBNOXIOUS it was to chase the bastard across the arena when he decided he needed some personal space. You're conflating difficulty with sheer annoyance, and if Torrent was available in the fight from the start I've no doubt you wouldn't be complaining about it right now.

I never once thought to use torrent. I said it earlier. From one fight (Radagon) to the next, I stayed on foot, not bothering to even press Y on a controller to see if it was available.

Irrelevant. Radagon/elden beast aren't open world bosses; of course nobody would think to use the horse cause normally non-open world bosses don't let you use it anyway.

And it doesn't counter my point that the majority of people found fighting the thing obnoxious.

[zero]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von zero:

... the point of patching is to ensure the playerbase gets an ejoyable experince so they can play the game the way it was intended to be played by the designers vision.

That, my good sir, is certainly debatable with what I proposed occurred at release. It's not like hitboxes would've added crunch and delays to simply change a few numbers.

people are flawed and will miss things, let us not pretend this game didn't have mixed reviews because of performance issues upon launch, on top of a dozen other issues.

things fall through the crack, but its the 2020's, we dont need to ship and forget and fix it in the next version of Super Mario, they can be patched for everyone to fix the issues.

the devs are the ones making the change, between you me and them, they know their design intent best, and they will follow it.

[Necrophoria]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

I never once thought to use torrent. I said it earlier. From one fight (Radagon) to the next, I stayed on foot, not bothering to even press Y on a controller to see if it was available.

Irrelevant. Radagon/elden beast aren't open world bosses; of course nobody would think to use the horse cause normally non-open world bosses don't let you use it anyway.

And it doesn't counter my point that the majority of people found fighting the thing obnoxious.

Your point is certainly valid, and I am not debating it. What I am bothered by is how much player feedback is changing this company, and it is frankly sad. The example of this is simply adding torrent, which really was unnecessary and that is what I am arguing.

[Titan]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von zero:

... the point of patching is to ensure the playerbase gets an ejoyable experince so they can play the game the way it was intended to be played by the designers vision.

That, my good sir, is certainly debatable with what I proposed occurred at release. It's not like hitboxes would've added crunch and delays to simply change a few numbers. It took player feedback to ultimately change their minds, just like Torrent.

And that's a problem... How?

If people are unhappy with a game, they stop playing. Player feedback is how games stay alive. Just because it's a Fromsoft game doesn't make Elden Ring exempt. Player Feedback is how we avoid ♥♥♥♥ like "Pre-Patch Bleed Dog", it makes the game enjoyable for as many people as possible. If people aren't enjoying the game, what's the point?

[zero]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Titan:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Necrophoria:

That, my good sir, is certainly debatable with what I proposed occurred at release. It's not like hitboxes would've added crunch and delays to simply change a few numbers. It took player feedback to ultimately change their minds, just like Torrent.

And that's a problem... How?

If people are unhappy with a game, they stop playing. Player feedback is how games stay alive. Just because it's a Fromsoft game doesn't make Elden Ring exempt. Player Feedback is how we avoid ♥♥♥♥ like "Pre-Patch Bleed Dog", it makes the game enjoyable for as many people as possible. If people aren't enjoying the game, what's the point?

it should also be noted, long term souls players love elden ring overall.

there will be a few that don't (like there has been with every game sequel in history), but the game is ultimately "more of the same" cause thats what they want, and thats what fromsoft makes.

games that provide a fair challenge for the players to overcome.