Abyssal Serpent and Eiglay paralels ; Messmer lore

[The Plague Doctor]

Haven't seen many people pointing to these so I just wanted to leave my thoughts, especially since it seems like most lore youtubers seem to struggle to connect the Abyssal serpent and Eiglay.

I don't think that Messmer was born with the Serpent. I think that the only affliction he was born with was the dark kindling. It's stated explicitly that the flame is eaten away by the serpent, so I can't imagine him being born without both while one is being constantly eaten.

The Serpent seems to be an ancient enemy of the Erdtree, and the timeline doesn't allow for Messmer to be the reason that the Serpent is hated, so I propose that Messmer was used as a "cage" for the original Serpent. It's sealed inside him using Marika's magic, forever consuming his flame. When the seal is broke, him and the Serpent become one, much like Rykard and Eiglay.

Once the seal is broken, his name changes to Base Serpent Messmer. My interpretation of that has always been that the "base serpent" part is signifficant, implying a base where all variations originate from. One can find a shed skin of Eiglay near bonny village, to me implying that Eiglay is an offspring or piece, which was broken off from the base that is the Abyssal Serpent and made it's way to the lands between to wreak havoc on the Erdtree once more.

[LuckyCheshire]

I think in this context 'base' actually means 'lowly', since it's used to differentiate from the Winged Serpent, who is apparently a friendly little chap and antithetical to the Base Serpent.

One other factor you missed that heavily implies that serpents were an ancient enemy of at least the Golden Order is the gladiatorial equipment. The Gladiator's Set, Rotten Gladiator's Set, Venomous Fangs, and the Coil Shield. They were used to draw the attention of the crowd as the 'villains' of the fights, particularly as they fought against lions, which were related to Godfrey. Interestingly, the lions were or were related to the divine beasts of the Hornsent, so they were technically also enemies of the Golden Order as well.

So yes, it seems pretty obvious that one of the many goddish things tussling over the Lands Between is/was snake themed. I'm not totally convinced whether the Eiglay Serpent or the Base Serpent came first however, or even whether both were 'siblings'. Rykard's serpent seems to be much more significant than Messmer's. Rykard seems to be functionally immortal, for instance, and the serpent was the progenitor (along with Daedicar) of a whole race of serpent-people.

[The Plague Doctor]

Originally posted by LuckyCheshire:

I think in this context 'base' actually means 'lowly', since it's used to differentiate from the Winged Serpent

Could be a difference in context from one language to another, but it seems to me like "base", while used to signify 'lowly', almost universally signifies a foundation, a starting point. Idk how it's written in Japanese, but I haven't seen "base" being used to signify pure lowliness. Could also be my lack of experience.

Originally posted by LuckyCheshire:

One other factor you missed that heavily implies that serpents were an ancient enemy of at least the Golden Order is the gladiatorial equipment.

Yep, i know about that, it's the main reason why I think that the Serpent existed separately from Messmer, as his crusade started after Godfrey's banishment (he knows what a tarnished is) and he never really betrayed the Erdtree. That's why it seems to me like he "inherited" the sin of the serpent.

Originally posted by LuckyCheshire:

I'm not totally convinced whether the Eiglay Serpent or the Base Serpent came first however, or even whether both were 'siblings'. Rykard's serpent seems to be much more significant than Messmer's. Rykard seems to be functionally immortal, for instance, and the serpent was the progenitor (along with Daedicar) of a whole race of serpent-people.

True, Rykards serpent seems different/more important. The main reason why i still cling to this theory is the "base" title and the comment about it devouring Messmers flame. It's sealed inside him, devouring a piece of him, becoming one with him once unchained much like Rykard's serpent.