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Because they're gigantic babies.
They're only really justified in complaining when facing an OP twink at low levels.
Also the whole point is that someone "forcibly" enters your world. A toggle would be plain stupid.
Wow the irony in this comment coming from you lol
"low levels"
Have you seen how bonkers even a DS3 twink was? They had large advantages over a level appropriate phantom, even when lowballing, up until about the grand fcking archives. ER is better, but it's still close to 1/6-1/3rd of the game (it's harder to really pin it down, partially because I'm less familiar with ER twinking than DS3 twinking. They're on par pure statwise with a host until about the end of Limgrave, and significantly stronger than they should be for some distance beyond that. I haven't gotten a chance to do a comparison over the game like I did with DS3; provisionally, I'd expect the twink to have a significant advantage until partway through Caelid, and whatever they had going for them more or less vanish when the host hits the five near-guaranteed seeds in Altus).
As for why people dislike invasions, I really don't think it's the challenge. It's the fact that invasions are an inconsistent, often unfair, and easily abused system.
If adding a toggle would mean that everyone would stop letting themselves be invaded...doesn't that mean there's a serious problem with invasions?
Like, if nobody wants to play a gamemode, then that gamemode probably isn't very fun for them, no?
"Potential counterargument: Invasions aren't meant to be fun, they're meant to add additional challenge"
Souls game challenge is meant to be and usually is fun in and of itself; it's one of the major selling points of the games. If invasion's aren't, then that's a serious problem.
I think that's part of their goal, but they fail because FROM struggles to make invaders that play anything like a player. In particular, the major issues are:
-NPC invaders have their flasks just baked into their massive health bars. Because they don't need to heal (or rather, because they only need to do so once), players don't learn how to apply pressure. Punishing or keeping opponents from healing is a fundamental aspect of PvP and leads into learning how to handle spellcasters.
-NPC invaders are overagressive. You don't really learn how to handle an invader in addition to the mobs.
-NPC invaders have no latency. This makes a massive difference in PvP and is one of the largest barriers of entry because of how unintuitive it is.
dude, I expected more from you.
"nobody wants to play it"
you mean
except the freakin' invaders???? you think what they enjoy shouldn't count????
I'm absolutely, 100% certain that even if twinking was fixed, invasion timeout was extended and pvp properly balanced, co-opers would still complain about invasions as much as they do now.
it's a mentality problem. people being babies and not accepting a challenge even when it's fair, simply because there's another person on the other side, and not an AI. regardless of the fact that invaders are the ones that the game is made to challenge the most.
who tf would say that invasions aren't meant to be fun???? PVP is fun, ffs, it's just that a ton of people have some sort of preconceived, irrational fear/hatred for it. they won't even give it an honest try.
One reason is that after several months the casual single players leave the game permanently and what remains is the core players. They of course beaten the game already and sole interest is ganks
No, what they enjoy counts. I did indeed misspeak; I should have said "if everyone on one team..." Same argument holds (and I'd argue that invaders aren't necessarily all having fun either; FROM has been using the band-aid solution of making invaders weaker continually, and when combined with the new prevalence of high-damage long range attacks of all the new WAs, I've seen this spawn a number of complaints from the invader side as well).
Well duh, and they'd be right to. Invasions would still be an utter mess because that doesn't solve the latency issues, barriers of entry, spawn system jank, vulnerability to both cheaters and exploiters, issues with OL phantom downscaling, propensity for infinite summoning, etc etc etc. That is how bad the system is currently: it would still be unacceptable by the standards of most PvP games if you fixed the majority of the most pressing issues.
It is absolutely partially a problem with incorrect perceptions regarding invasions and irrational fear and hatreds of invaders. Do you know why it is a mentality problem?
Because the flaws in the current PvP system engineer that problem and that perception. Let me explain:
The first experiences cooping players have with invasions are likely to include a twink (see my DS3 PvP analysis in the previous post for discussion and evidence of the likelihood). And so the coopers get absolutely demolished in a bunch of their first invasions through no real fault of their own.
Additionally, in both twinked an non-twink invasions, the new coopers are likely to be matched against players who are more experienced (because they're...well...the newest possible players, essentially. Can only match up in that department). This is problematic in and of itself because every fight is an uphill battle, and especially so because latency is an enormous problem. It fundamentally changes how combat works and has no explanation in game; the only way to learn how to deal with it is looking up guides or trial and error learning. Invaders seem, for those who don't know better, to break many of the rules the game has established to that point because their weapon range is inconsistent, they stun you or poison you even when you roll through an attack, you hit them and get hit sounds but they don't take damage, etc..
So, the first impression people get from invasions is that they're wildly unfair encounters dominated by griefing asshats who aren't playing by the same rules (they probably are, but you don't know that yet, because you're new). This engenders a dislike of invasions and of invaders, and is what leads to the "bad red man" caricature that you see on the forums. Hosts and phantoms grow to hate not only the activity but the players participating; they lose any previous scruples and become both rude and willing to use every available tactic, even exploits and in some cases cheats, because in their view their opponents are doing that too.
And then, now that this hateful mentality has taken root, the circumstances shift as the coopers go through the game. The twink advantages fall off, the host and phantoms gain access to powerful weapon arts, spells, etc, and the host gets the hunter rings. The balance shifts; now, invaders are at a massive disadvantage, especially given how ER allows 3 phantom worlds with no second invader. So, even though they still suck ass at PvP, the host and coopers tend to win most of their encounters. When they do lose, it's because they either got massively outplayed (sometimes happens, but not super common) or were hit with something they haven't seen before (like, getting deleted by a oneshot build with a jar cannon, or running into double Seppuku or a Madness weapon for the first time, or not knowing how dragon breaths work and just eating the entire thing: basically, anything that you need to see a couple times to understand what's happening and how to counter it.)
Because invasions occur so frequently due to the baffling decision to start the cooldown timer on invader arrival vs departure, you essentially have a cycle where now most invasions are an irritating inconvenience that isn't difficult but does disrupt playing through the level while you go and crush the invader, punctuated by the occasional losing match that feels totally ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because how could you have known that Placidusax's Ruin requires a right -> left -> sideways dodge sequence without having seen the beam pattern before?
The pathway I've described is one I suspect a great many coop players go through, where they are first conditioned to see invasions as unfair and invaders as griefers, and then have the unfairness reinforced even as invasions become an interrupting nuisance due to balance and rate issues. Think about all the complaints you've seen: "I just want to play with [person] without getting interrupted all the time by these aholes," or "PvP is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ stupid, this guy showed up and [some unintuitive attack that is hard to get the hang of without extensive experience] and I just died instantly, so fun, so fair," or "It's a janky mess, I always get hit from five miles away but my own sword goes through the invader's chest and they take no damage." You can see this experience reflected in the vast majority of them.
If PvP were suddenly balanced and all major issues fixed, would some of the playerbase still hate it and want it optional and think invaders are jerks? Yes. Because that's what the game has conditioned them to think. You would need time for the attitude to shift.
TLDR:
First contact with invasions is highly unfair, "cheating," ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ players. Host comes to see invaders generally as "cheating," ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ players and invasions as highly unfair. They avoid PvP because of it, and thus prolong the period where things feel unfair. At the same time, changing balance over the course of the game turns invasions into nuisances too. This repeated unfairness and frustration with invasions becomes the woefully undereducated invader and invasion hating mentality we know and love.
This does happen, but given the rarity of it in duels compared to both sides of an invasion, where conditions are actually fair (well, fairer) and the stigma of the opponent as a griefer is much less prevalent, I'm strongly inclined to believe the vast majority of the problem lies with issues in the system and not an inherent dislike of losing to a human.
they hated him because he told the truth
Ok that's a good analysis, but still, a toggle that would kill the feature is not a solution. It's not like invaders have no problems with latency or against OP setups. But they generally (it seems) make it less of a big deal.
The real solution would be for fromsoft to do their job and fix all these issues. Should put at least a ping filter to "fix" latency (may not fix lag-switching or lag in general, but oh well), make an actual effort at fixing twinking for once, balance the pvp (they usually eventually get to it, we gotta be patient right now), and I dunno what else. Maybe make some quest that requires dueling people? Not even invading them, so they can learn pvp a bit more easily.
But again, killing invasions isn't a solution, of course...
It's not a great solution, but it is a partial one. I think the coopers having the choice and invasions limping along in a weakened format would be a better scenario than the current state of the game. But I do agree that FROM successfully fixing invasions would be better still.
I think the major things they'd have to do are:
1: introduce a ping filter and/or superior regional matchmaking options
2: make the dueling and invading items easier and earlier to aquire, and encourage players to use them by attaching good mechanical incentives to both invasions and duels (we've already had a good step forwards from DS3 via dropping the participation costs, now that participation just needs to be accessible and worth the time).
3: Properly balance all weapon classes and builds
4: scale invader and phantom weapon upgrade level and flask level from the host's (stops twinking + some OL phantom issues)
5: properly scale OL phantoms
6: better anticheat and swifter exploit patching
7: buff invaders to a varying degree based on level strength (ex: the invader who has very little to work with in Nokstella should get bigger buffs than the person who has a whole ass dragon in FA), especially poise and resistance wise, to help counteract the greater prevalance of high-damage far reaching attacks. Also, scale invader strength with phantom number.
8: prevent players from having large advantages via access to items that opponents may not, like livers, crab, boluses, etc (either remove or make more easily and consistently accessible)
9: redo how solo invasions work (shouldn't be feast or famine)
10: have concrete invader timers that start on invader death. Indicate to the host when that timer runs out.
11: fix hunter and invader spawn systems
12: include some mechanic to prevent the host from remaining static and waiting invaders out (damage zone spreading slowly from grace?)
13: cap summoning to a limited number of summons per rest at a grace
14: introduce anti-gank measures