Patches +7 Spear is so bad :( dont kill patches ...

[Sonnenbank]

Today i made a new Samurai char and killed patches to test the +7 spear as early game weapon vs the +3 starting katana.... and +2 powerstance VULGAR MILITIA SAW

wow the +7 spear is so damn bad.
it was even worse than i expected

it does 20% more damage than a +3 katana but has no bleed (45) and does less damage on the l2 -.-.---
it does 20% more damage than +2 VULGAR MILITIA SAW (55 each) on some attacks and less damage on jump attacks

4 hit combo with +7 spear does 530 vs Margit no bleed build up
4 hit combo with +3 katana does 430 vs Margit

Jump attack vs Godrick does 220
Jump attack vs Godrick with +2 VULGAR MILITIA SAW does 268 + bleed build up.

L2 special attack does less damage than the L2 samurai special attack

So the +7 Patches Spear is overall about the same strength as a +3 Katana and a bit worse than a +2 VULGAR MILITIA SAW powerstance setup.

So all killing patches does for you is screw up your coop level range.

why ?

[impuretrash2878]

well it is just a spear after all. How much better do you really expect it to be compared to katanas: From's favorite weapon type?

Besides the best thing about spears is they can attack from behind a shield. Pretty brutal in pvp when dual wielded too.

[Ulmace]

why? to play with something else then a katana, just because it is the strongest weapon doesnt mean you just have to use it

[Zorin]

Spears need to have lower raw damage to make up for their other advantages.

Firstly, when you hit an enemy during certain points in their attack animations (during and just after usually) you get bonus damage on thrusting attacks. Plus there's a talisman that boosts thrust counter damage even more. Plus they have more range and a very good moveset, especially powerstanced.

Not saying they're *better* than katanas in pve, but they're a viable alternative, and powerstanced spears is an extremely strong setup in pvp.

[Sonnenbank]

Originally posted by impuretrash2878:

well it is just a spear after all. How much better do you really expect it to be compared to katanas: From's favorite weapon type?

Besides the best thing about spears is they can attack from behind a shield. Pretty brutal in pvp when dual wielded too.

+7 spear vs +3 Katana and its same strength overall >_<

I expected a +7 weapon to be better than a +3 weapon

[impuretrash2878]

Originally posted by Sonnenbank:

Originally posted by impuretrash2878:

well it is just a spear after all. How much better do you really expect it to be compared to katanas: From's favorite weapon type?

Besides the best thing about spears is they can attack from behind a shield. Pretty brutal in pvp when dual wielded too.

+7 spear vs +3 Katana and its same strength overall >_<

I expected a +7 weapon to be better than a +3 weapon

define better. Just because weapon A does slightly more damage than weapon B doesn't mean A is better. Spears have range and can attack while blocking. So what if it takes one or two more hits to kill an enemy with it?

[Ulmace]

Originally posted by impuretrash2878:

Originally posted by Sonnenbank:

+7 spear vs +3 Katana and its same strength overall >_<

I expected a +7 weapon to be better than a +3 weapon

define better. Just because weapon A does slightly more damage than weapon B doesn't mean A is better. Spears have range and can attack while blocking. So what if it takes one or two more hits to kill an enemy with it?

katana is better because you can kill stuff while spamming r1

[--T-a-u-r-u-s--]

Go with your fist again bosses and you can say it is worst weapon

All weapons have advantages over other

[Dollmaker]

Why even kill Patches at that point? you miss out on his quests and items only he sells later on.

[Blake]

Get yourself a sceptre and cast ice magic instead

[Sonnenbank]

Originally posted by impuretrash2878:

Originally posted by Sonnenbank:

+7 spear vs +3 Katana and its same strength overall >_<
I expected a +7 weapon to be better than a +3 weapon

define better. Just because weapon A does slightly more damage than weapon B doesn't mean A is better. Spears have range and can attack while blocking. So what if it takes one or two more hits to kill an enemy with it?

The raw dps and r1 damage is when including bleed about the same....
the power of the L2 from the Katana does more damage and has about similar poise break
The range doesnt really matter too much for PvE..... both have decent range

and we are not comparing the weapons at +3
we comparing +7 spear vs +3 Katana and Katana is same strength >-<

Dont you think its a bit meh that a +3 weapon has more damage on L2 than a +7 weapon while also being faster and have additional bleed ?

[Ulmace]

Originally posted by Sonnenbank:

Originally posted by impuretrash2878:

define better. Just because weapon A does slightly more damage than weapon B doesn't mean A is better. Spears have range and can attack while blocking. So what if it takes one or two more hits to kill an enemy with it?

The raw dps and r1 damage is when including bleed about the same....
the power of the L2 from the Katana does more damage and has about similar poise break
The range doesnt really matter too much for PvE..... both have decent range

and we are not comparing the weapons at +3
we comparing +7 spear vs +3 Katana and Katana is same strength >-<

Dont you think its a bit meh that a +3 weapon has more damage on L2 than a +7 weapon while also being faster and have additional bleed ?

katanas always have been strong in From games, i mean, Japanese company using lots of western architecture and weapons in their games, yet the Japanese weapon is really strong. This is more like an easter egg at this point

[landmass]

Originally posted by Sonnenbank:

Originally posted by impuretrash2878:

well it is just a spear after all. How much better do you really expect it to be compared to katanas: From's favorite weapon type?

Besides the best thing about spears is they can attack from behind a shield. Pretty brutal in pvp when dual wielded too.

+7 spear vs +3 Katana and its same strength overall >_<

I expected a +7 weapon to be better than a +3 weapon

Not even close. You look like a total dork using a katana and the spear can be used from 100% safety behind a shield. Very different types of weapons but at least 1 isn’t a katana

[MULTIPASS]

The katana is getting a 10% damage boost against Margit due to slashing damage vulnerability, and the advantage of the spear is its reach. Seems pretty clear to me.

[Sonnenbank]

Originally posted by orksmith:

The katana is getting a 10% damage boost against Margit due to slashing damage vulnerability, and the advantage of the spear is its reach. Seems pretty clear to me.

its reach advantage doesnt matter vs bosses though....
its good for pvp but not this particular spear since it has too low damage
i cant think of 1 single attack of Godrick or Margit that you can get in due to having 40cm more reach on the weapon >-<

And again for the 100th time.
we are not comparing +3 spear vs +3 katana
----we compare +7 Spear vs +3 katana and its basically equal strength.----

Well fact is:
Getting a +7 weapon within the first minutes of the game sounds really strong.
but when inspecting closer it turns out -> it isnt since the weapon is bad
Both a straight sword and Katana can compete despite being not even half the level >_<

So whats the advantage of killing Patches early ?
basically nothing.

Disadvantage
+7 weapon locks you out of early coop

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Sonnenbank:

Originally posted by impuretrash2878:

define better. Just because weapon A does slightly more damage than weapon B doesn't mean A is better. Spears have range and can attack while blocking. So what if it takes one or two more hits to kill an enemy with it?

The raw dps and r1 damage is when including bleed about the same....
the power of the L2 from the Katana does more damage and has about similar poise break
The range doesnt really matter too much for PvE..... both have decent range

and we are not comparing the weapons at +3
we comparing +7 spear vs +3 Katana and Katana is same strength >-<

Dont you think its a bit meh that a +3 weapon has more damage on L2 than a +7 weapon while also being faster and have additional bleed ?

Oh? Then lets compare a +10 dagger and see if it does more or less per hit than your +3 Katana. What do you think the results will be exactly?

Your dismissing the valid strengths people are bringing up about why a spear is good. It trades damage for range, shield usage synergy, certain neat and practical weapon ash of wars specific to spears.

It should also be noted that you're probably thinking under the assumption of unique or DS3 old weapons that cap at +10. Normal weapons cap at +25 so the increments aren't as staggering.

Uchigatana +3 (base req stats): Total AR: 157
Uchigatana +7 (base req stats): Total AR: 190
Spear +7 (base req stats): Total AR: 185

Don't forget damage types of pierce vs slash/pierce. Also, jump modifiers are a bit trickier with some weapons scaling much better than others.