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ELDEN RING > Discussões gerais > Detalhes do tópico
Nakedkoops 13 mai. 2022 às 9:10
What are the biggest flaws in Elden Ring PVP?
Basically Im making this discussion to gauge what are people's stance towards PVP and what do you think is the biggest reason(s) as to why it is flawed.

As for me, the biggest issue that I believe is plaguing Elden ring is the lack of counterplay options. Counterplay to simplify, is the option or tactic that is used to fight against or counter a strategy used by the opponent (for example anti-airs are a way to fight against players using aerials in most fighting games). This prevents players from using the same strategy over and over again as it forces players to think on whether or not using that strategy will result in them getting punished via counterplay. Without it, most players will be spamming the same moves over and over and over again with almost no punish. For example, in SSBU Ness and Young Link is considered to be the most annoying characters in Elite smash due to their very spammable projectiles and incredibly hard to punish Neutral game (also Nintendo online still sucks pp).

This exact issue is what is facing Elden ring and not surprisingly a lot of the other previous souls titles. There are a select few weapons that not only promote spam but there very few counterplay options for the average player to use to fight against things like BHS, RoB, MV, SoR, shield poking, rot (at lower levels), etc. Without meaningful counterplay options that everyplayer can have access to, Elden ring's pvp becomes a spammy mess to where unless you have DA M.E.T.A. tools you are at a near complete disadvantage.

(Also to anyone that says that BHS or so and so weapon isn't overpowered because the majority of people who use it are dumb. Listen just because 1 person who plays Brawl Meta Knight sucks doesn't mean he isn't blatantly overpowered. The one time you will encounter someone who does know how to you him you will see why he is. To translate just because the majority of people who use these busted ass tools suck doesn't mean that it isn't broken. )

And the funny thing is, for shield pokes they have already had a counterplay option available to all players called guard breaks. If they just brought things like this back along with creating new options like a universal spell parry akin to powershielding in melee (and also nerf the damage in certain weapons and spells along with reworking BHS step) the pvp in Elden ring will be much more fun.

But thats just my thoughts, again I want to see people's thoughts on this topic as the more we can dig, the better solutions can be found to fixing this games pvp.
Última alteração por Nakedkoops; 13 mai. 2022 às 10:49
O autor deste tópico marcou um post como resposta à pergunta dele.
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Originalmente postado por ressenmacher:
Standard FROM issues:
-unintuitive latency mechanics that create high barriers to entry
-very poor inter and intra class balance (ex: Scavenger's Curved Sword is vastly superior to most weapons in its class, and is also vastly superior to literally every colossal weapon)
-very poor general balance due to lassitude in WUL and SL brackets + massive variance in the equipment players may have access to (ex: facing a player 10 levels and 3 upgrade levels above you who has a full suite of talismans and facing a player 20 levels and 3 upgrade levels below you are both possible on the same character)
-extreme variance in level difficulty with a static invader strength results in high PvP balance variation (ex: think how much more PvE power and level geometry an invader in CFR has at their disposal as opposed to one in Nokstella)
-twinking
-ganking
-OL phantoms being both poorly downscaled and not downscaled in all relevant aspects (flasks especially)
-raising PvP engagement via tethering a non-PvP reward to it produces resentment, poor and toxic behavior, and feeds the arms race
-extreme prevalence and slow squashing of easily performed exploits that give enormous PvP advantages
-lack of a mechanic to force engagement means that for both sides the optimal action is to wait their opponent out, leading to frequent stalemates
-resummoning encourages passive play and even more camping from hosts, while also encouraging invaders to lean even more heavily into very high burst damage setups
-terrible anticheat

ER specific issues:
-spawn locations are absolutely atrocious, and in particular often fail to account for verticality when deciding where to place you in regards to the host or invader
-many weapon arts and some spells are so strong that they overshadow virtually all other aspects of the weapon's moveset. As an example, because the cost difference between using a standard attack vs using Corpse Piler is so small, and because Corpse Piler is superior in almost every way to a standard attack, players are encouraged to always use Corpse Piler over literally any other action.
-adding to this, many weapon arts deal high poise damage, produce projectiles, and/or cover a very large area. This often leads to scenarios where an invader has no real options to outplay their opponents, because every player is able to threaten them regardless of positioning and thus there is neither a safe attack window nor a correct roll timing, as you will dodge one attack and be hit by another in your recovery frames. The only answers are often very tedious, painfully passive games of keep-away and using massive burst damage to capitalize so heavily on the rare openings one recieves that you gradually tilt the odds more in your favor
-status effects applying even through rolls, and stunning players out of rolls, leads to many builds lacking any counterplay beyond very slow, tedious games of keep-away. Double Vyke's is a great example, where you must limit the time you spend in melee range actually fighting the other player because if you don't, you're going to take an unavoidable R2 to the face and lose 60% of your HP even if you don't get hit once.
-status effect buildup, especially in regards to certain weapons and/or weapon arts, is poorly balanced and often defeats the purpose of the status effect entirely (ex: dual bleed naginatas proccing in one hit)
-tedium and difficulty of aquiring consumable items like bombs leads to their neglect, especially in favor of the weapon arts which often fill the same rolls but better.
-the reduction to 4 players maximum often results in highly unfair scenarios, where an invader must fight three players with no assistance, which is just often not feasible (especially outside of legacy dungeons, where the mob density is usually simply too low to make up the difference).


Originalmente postado por Percent:
There is no such things as ganks, only people who give invaders a taste of their own medicine. If you don't like it, don't invade people. :steamhappy:

This comment both displays utter ignorance in regards to the reality of multiplayer and is hilariously reductive regarding the intent and behavior of invaders.

Gank squads, that is, groups of players with the primary goal of defeating an invader and who exploit the matchmaking and intended addition of the level enemies to do so as easily as possible, factually exist.
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A mostrar 1-15 de 71 comentários
mpcgannon 13 mai. 2022 às 9:13 
1. They know what arenas are. It's pretty foolish this option wasn't available day 1 and we're still waiting.
2. Not a build issue but I want group fights. 3v3, 4v4 etc.
#1
Endarion 13 mai. 2022 às 9:22 
that the comunity decided the meta level is 150
#2
Titanium 13 mai. 2022 às 9:22 
elden ring isn't a pvp game and it wasn't balanced around pvp, it doesn't need "fixing"
#3
mpcgannon 13 mai. 2022 às 9:25 
Originalmente postado por Titanium:
elden ring isn't a pvp game and it wasn't balanced around pvp, it doesn't need "fixing"
Angry
#4
Nakedkoops 13 mai. 2022 às 9:29 
Originalmente postado por Titanium:
elden ring isn't a pvp game and it wasn't balanced around pvp, it doesn't need "fixing"
But it has the option of pvp, and has balance patches revolving around fixing pvp related issues (not exactly ideal but you get the point). Whether you like it or not, Elden ring has the option for pvp thus it IS a pvp game. You are right in the sense that they didn't balance this game with PVP in mind, but my point and my discussion still stands.
Última alteração por Nakedkoops; 13 mai. 2022 às 9:40
#5
DayLight1943 13 mai. 2022 às 9:35 
Originalmente postado por Titanium:
elden ring isn't a pvp game

yet somehow i am still able to engage in pvp in elden ring. curious.
#6
Titanium 13 mai. 2022 às 9:40 
Originalmente postado por Nakedkoops(#RemasterTTYD):
But it has the option of pvp, and has balance patches revolving around fixing pvp related issues (not exactly ideal but you get the point). Whether you like it or not, Elden ring has the option for pvp thus it IS a pvp game. You are right the sense that they didn't balance this game with PVP in mind, but my point and my discussion still stands.
Originalmente postado por DayLight1943:
yet somehow i am still able to engage in pvp in elden ring. curious.

elden ring has pvp, the same way mario kart has balloon battles. mario kart is not a balloon battle game, it's a racing game, and elden ring is not a pvp game it's a pve game. you can engage in the pvp, it's a fun minigame but nothing more than that. they cannot balance around pvp without affecting the pve to some extent.
Última alteração por Titanium; 13 mai. 2022 às 9:46
#7
Percent 13 mai. 2022 às 9:42 
The biggest issue with PVP is that it is non-consensual. The next biggest problem is that people think the game should be balanced around PVP, resulting in ruining weapons/spells for people who play the actual game instead of the tacked on side content.
#8
Nakedkoops 13 mai. 2022 às 9:57 
Originalmente postado por Titanium:
Originalmente postado por Nakedkoops(#RemasterTTYD):
But it has the option of pvp, and has balance patches revolving around fixing pvp related issues (not exactly ideal but you get the point). Whether you like it or not, Elden ring has the option for pvp thus it IS a pvp game. You are right the sense that they didn't balance this game with PVP in mind, but my point and my discussion still stands.


Originalmente postado por DayLight1943:
yet somehow i am still able to engage in pvp in elden ring. curious.

elden ring has pvp, the same way mario kart has balloon battles. mario kart is not a balloon battle game, it's a racing game, and elden ring is not a pvp game it's a pve game. you can engage in the pvp, it's a fun minigame but nothing more than that. they cannot balance around pvp without affecting the pve to some extent.
The problem is that these are entirely 2 different game genres and with 2 different intentions. I see your point with pvp being optional expecially if you are playing offline but once again I don't see how this doesn't make Elden ring a pvp game if the option is still there. And again pvp is still in from's mind if you consider the balance patches.

No amount of "it is optional" will change that and if that is the case then Tf2 is a pve game since you don't need to play with other players to play TF2 since that is optional as well. Once again, this is a PVP game as well as a pve game.

Regarding balances, I don't see how changes to certain tools will (badly) affect the pve scene. Sure maybe without certain weapon's properties people can't cheese certain bosses or other pve stuff but that is it.
#9
Sparhawk 59 13 mai. 2022 às 10:05 
The biggest issue first of all the connection errors ruins PVP and coop
#10
Cooperal 13 mai. 2022 às 10:38 
The incentives are lacking. I think more people would embrace getting invaded as an opportunity for entertainment if the game did more to encourage them to try and be the aggressor themselves.

That comes more down to how the game distributes rewards itself. In PvE almost every single nice exclusive pickup has a whole dungeon of its own, whereas in Dark Souls you could find a fancy weapon or set from some random but hole resting over a balcony. Elden Rings PvP reward system has also been diluted in its own way. Elden Ring doesn't even dare to lock exclusive rewards that are most quickly earned through multiplayer participation.

There are so many easier, lazier, more assured ways to get runes and rune arcs. More people need to try it to know that they like it, and to chill out about it. Some people take dying too seriously.

I am also eagerly waiting to see what becomes of the colosseums. I'm hoping that they will be available to all owners of the base game at a later date similar to how they have patched in other things incrementally. But they have locked arena modes behind DLC for more than one title in the past, significantly limiting their exposure.
#11
Tiny serpent Shnissuvihr 13 mai. 2022 às 10:52 
Imagine fighter game where you have acess to 1/2 shot moves from the very beginning of the match and the opponents are constantly trying to do those moves over and over again.

In it's current state it seems like it's meant to be little more than a quick meme-out... it can be fun some times, but it gets boring real fast.
#12
Archdeacon Monseigneur 13 mai. 2022 às 10:54 
list of flaws:
1. RoB.
2. Moonveil.
3. Some spells.
4. The 3/4 vs. 1 design. often resulting in people abusing this system with gank squads + taunters tongue to lure in free rune arcs.
5. Twinks.
6. Glitch abusing by switching talismans/helms to heal or gain infinite stamina.
7. No dedicated arenas.
8. The community.
9. Unstable servers.
10. Invasions putting the invader BEHIND the host and his friends on the progression path.
11. Host can kick invader by entering mist gate, something everyone does when the fight don't go their way.
12. Invader half flasks, no access to great rune, while host has full flask amount + great rune access.
13. Spell/Incantation animation skipping through glitches.
14. Bullgoat/Lionel/Omen set weight requirement way too low, sets way too powerful.
15. Connection error. Returning to your world.
16. Bloodhound Step abuse - seriously fix this Ash. increase its mana cost, reduce its effectiveness at medium and heavy load.
17. Turtling (specifically with fingerprint shield + spear/thrust weapons)
18. AFK farmers
19. another thing i forgot
20. another thing i forgot
21. another thing. that i. forgot.

more to come.
Última alteração por Archdeacon Monseigneur; 13 mai. 2022 às 11:14
#13
Nakedkoops 13 mai. 2022 às 10:57 
Originalmente postado por Shifty Thief:
Imagine fighter game where you have acess to 1/2 shot moves from the very beginning of the match and the opponents are constantly trying to do those moves over and over again.
Dive kick in a nutshell
Última alteração por Nakedkoops; 13 mai. 2022 às 10:58
#14
Nakedkoops 13 mai. 2022 às 11:04 
Originalmente postado por Punished JaggSauce:
15. another thing i forgot
16. yet another thing i forgot
more to come.

BHS step and Turtling?
#15
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ELDEN RING > Discussões gerais > Detalhes do tópico
Postado a: 13 mai. 2022 às 9:10
Comentários: 71

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