Alexander the Jar's Connection to the DLC *SPOILERS*

[Necrophoria]

Honestly, who else thought the same when they saw that the jars actually are on the inside and thought "I can't look at Alexander the same again"?

Anybody have any interesting theories? I beat the DLC and am doing the whole post game piecing things together thing. I have learned that the sages were made into jars to become saints by the hornsent, but still I am bewildered at what that means for the jar people we have in the base game. This would include Alexander the warrior jar, Jar Bairn, and the great jar in caelid.

Wasn't this torturous for the people? Didn't Marika belong to the shamans who were in turn forced into jars? Wasn't the entire Messmer crusade an act of revenge upon the hornsent for this? What is their purpose in the lands between?

Just having a hard time figuring out why we still have the jar people in the lands between, who also seem to be the friendliest bunch, despite the horror of their creation. Anybody have any ideas?

[Iron Reaper]

Originally posted by Yikes:

elden ring is the wrong game to wana get into the nitty gritty of the lore. IMO elden ring has no story lol just random cut together treads of string rolled into a ball.

exactly. i made a thread about this recently, but fromboys will forever defend the nonexistant storytelling of this game

[Chibbix]

Originally posted by Necrophoria:

I understand that they are different as they are now, but don't you also wonder about what makes them similar? There has to be some sort of connection I think.

In physical appearance despite having different lids, they are the pretty much the same (once the freaks in the DLC stay in their jars), and also the way that Alexander consumes Radahn and then Jar Bairn consuming Alexander's flesh afterwards really makes me think about how the ones I ran into constantly tried to grab me, which I guess would result in being absorbed into their fleshy beings.

Idk. Just seems like there's something there. At least an origin story perhaps, since we know the major events in the DLC took place a long time ago before the age of the golden order.

I won't deny that Marika probably took some notes from the jars, but she repurposed them to be "gentler". Kinda seems like a theme in the dlc.

[Necrophoria]

Originally posted by duck_dodgers:

One question to the OP: How do you claim that the the DLC events took place before the age of the Golden Order? Messmer knows about the Tarnished, which means it is more than likely that he left for the Shadowlands after the Godfrey left and there is a talisman depicting Godfrey in the Shadow Keep. Also, the Black Knight weapons are imbued with an ERdtree incantation.

The trailer shows marika ascending to godhood using a similar method as Miquella is intending to when we meet him. It was pretty much a historical trailer showing the crusade against the hornsent. So it's easy to see that the major crusade in the shadow lands preceded our existence in the game itself. Not to mention the shaman village etc showing us marika's origin story.

That's at least what I gathered. Yes, at the present when we arrive the golden order and the erdtree exist, but the jar ritual the horned ones performs predates their near destruction by Messmer. What we find is a gaol with all the jars left abandoned there to their suffering.

[Necrophoria]

Originally posted by Iron Reaper:

Originally posted by Yikes:

elden ring is the wrong game to wana get into the nitty gritty of the lore. IMO elden ring has no story lol just random cut together treads of string rolled into a ball.

exactly. i made a thread about this recently, but fromboys will forever defend the nonexistant storytelling of this game

Sorry man. I will say it again. You just don't enjoy reading and looking into things. It has a different appeal.

[Necrophoria]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush09:

The Hornsent stuffed jars with Shaman because the flesh of Shaman was said to blend very well with others. And since the Hornsent were followers of the Crucible, where all life was once blended together, the Hornsent in turn viewed the act as very sacred and as a way to force the Shaman to be reborn as saints.

The jars in the base game (obviously the descendants of the jars in SotE) now stuff their bodies with dead warriors. They also have the Erdtree symbol on their lids. The symbol leads me to believe that Marika could have kept them around as a reminder of the past and as a way to help transport dead warriors to the Erdtrees.

That actually makes the most sense. I can see Marika keeping them around as a reminder of the past, just as she left the minor tree in the village. She seems to be a very sentimental and egoistic type of deity.

The entire setting is very much greek mythology inspired in my view. All the gods had very human qualities, as they do here.

[chrstnmonks]

The jars in the base game may have evolved to stuff dead bodies as opposes to living people. Because there does not seem to be "shamans" in the base game where they could do it the way the SOTE jars did.

[duck_dodgers]

Originally posted by Necrophoria:

That's at least what I gathered. Yes, at the present when we arrive the golden order and the erdtree exist, but the jar ritual the horned ones performs predates their near destruction by Messmer. What we find is a gaol with all the jars left abandoned there to their suffering.

I disagree at this point, we both agree that Marika is very likely from the village of the Shamans and is also probably one. So it makes a lot more sense that the Hornsent started torturing these Shamans after Marika's betrayal.

I mean, as bad as Messmer's conquest was, his forces don't seem to control all of the Shadowlands. Belurat, Rauh seem pretty much under Hornsent/Horned warrior control.

[fmalfeas]

Originally posted by Necrophoria:

Originally posted by duck_dodgers:

One question to the OP: How do you claim that the the DLC events took place before the age of the Golden Order? Messmer knows about the Tarnished, which means it is more than likely that he left for the Shadowlands after the Godfrey left and there is a talisman depicting Godfrey in the Shadow Keep. Also, the Black Knight weapons are imbued with an ERdtree incantation.

The trailer shows marika ascending to godhood using a similar method as Miquella is intending to when we meet him. It was pretty much a historical trailer showing the crusade against the hornsent. So it's easy to see that the major crusade in the shadow lands preceded our existence in the game itself. Not to mention the shaman village etc showing us marika's origin story.

That's at least what I gathered. Yes, at the present when we arrive the golden order and the erdtree exist, but the jar ritual the horned ones performs predates their near destruction by Messmer. What we find is a gaol with all the jars left abandoned there to their suffering.

The big thing I'm getting from the DLC is that Ranni is right.

Marika apparently used to be quite nice, and sane. Ascension turned her into the goddess that told her kids to hold eternal fights to the death for her amusement or be destroyed.

Miquella used to be kind and loving. He literally threw his love into the nastiest swamp he could find, and sacrificed his sister in order to enslave someone. Ascension is already turning him into a complete stain.

Get the gods out. Remove them. They're horrible. World will be so much better without them.

[duck_dodgers]

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

The big thing I'm getting from the DLC is that Ranni is right.

Marika apparently used to be quite nice, and sane. Ascension turned her into the goddess that told her kids to hold eternal fights to the death for her amusement or be destroyed.

Miquella used to be kind and loving. He literally threw his love into the nastiest swamp he could find, and sacrificed his sister in order to enslave someone. Ascension is already turning him into a complete stain.

Get the gods out. Remove them. They're horrible. World will be so much better without them.

But Ranni seeks godhood, also becomes one in her ending... doesn't that make her horrible too?

The only ending that kicks gods out is that of Goldmask, his mending runes states that.

[fmalfeas]

Originally posted by duck_dodgers:

But Ranni seeks godhood, also becomes one in her ending... doesn't that make her horrible too?

The only ending that kicks gods out is that of Goldmask, his mending runes states that.

“…Even if life and souls are one with the order, it (the order) could be kept far away.”
“If it was not possible to clearly see, feel, believe in, or touch the order… That would be better.”
On her version of the Ring - "Whoever thou mayest be, take not the ring from this place, the solitude beyond the night is better mine alone."

Ranni's ending is that there's no gods left in the world. All hauled away into the dark for a thousand years. The stars kept far away from the world. Nothing to drive people to religious frenzy. No gods to compel obedience or toy with people.

The path she takes to get there is *horrible*, but her end goal is the only one that lets people be free.

Goldmask's ending, on the other hand, reads like he's removing ambition and desire in order to stop conflict. Basically leaving the world a bunch of listless living zombies.

As for Ranni becoming horrible - She murdered the *soul* of her brother, bringing about undeath as a spreading plague as bad as the Scarlet Rot in order to make it possible to do all this. She's pretty bad. But at least in her plans, *she* is also being removed from the world too. She's even supposed to take the player with her. The whole new Order is supposed to go. Nobody left to subjugate everyone.

[duck_dodgers]

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

Originally posted by duck_dodgers:

But Ranni seeks godhood, also becomes one in her ending... doesn't that make her horrible too?

The only ending that kicks gods out is that of Goldmask, his mending runes states that.

“…Even if life and souls are one with the order, it (the order) could be kept far away.”
“If it was not possible to clearly see, feel, believe in, or touch the order… That would be better.”
On her version of the Ring - "Whoever thou mayest be, take not the ring from this place, the solitude beyond the night is better mine alone."

Ranni's ending is that there's no gods left in the world. All hauled away into the dark for a thousand years. The stars kept far away from the world. Nothing to drive people to religious frenzy. No gods to compel obedience or toy with people.

The path she takes to get there is *horrible*, but her end goal is the only one that lets people be free.

Goldmask's ending, on the other hand, reads like he's removing ambition and desire in order to stop conflict. Basically leaving the world a bunch of listless living zombies.

As for Ranni becoming horrible - She murdered the *soul* of her brother, bringing about undeath as a spreading plague as bad as the Scarlet Rot in order to make it possible to do all this. She's pretty bad. But at least in her plans, *she* is also being removed from the world too. She's even supposed to take the player with her. The whole new Order is supposed to go. Nobody left to subjugate everyone.

Right after sahe says she'll remove order, she says this:

And have the certainties of
sight, emotion, faith, and touch...
All become impossibilities.

Most of the Ranni fans leave this bit out and this sounds pretty gruesome to me. Forget religious frenzy she leaves people with nothing at all and this sounds nothing like freedom. The fact that she as a god chooses to do this makes her ending the worst possible choice after the frenzied flame ending.

[fmalfeas]

Originally posted by duck_dodgers:

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

“…Even if life and souls are one with the order, it (the order) could be kept far away.”
“If it was not possible to clearly see, feel, believe in, or touch the order… That would be better.”
On her version of the Ring - "Whoever thou mayest be, take not the ring from this place, the solitude beyond the night is better mine alone."

Ranni's ending is that there's no gods left in the world. All hauled away into the dark for a thousand years. The stars kept far away from the world. Nothing to drive people to religious frenzy. No gods to compel obedience or toy with people.

The path she takes to get there is *horrible*, but her end goal is the only one that lets people be free.

Goldmask's ending, on the other hand, reads like he's removing ambition and desire in order to stop conflict. Basically leaving the world a bunch of listless living zombies.

As for Ranni becoming horrible - She murdered the *soul* of her brother, bringing about undeath as a spreading plague as bad as the Scarlet Rot in order to make it possible to do all this. She's pretty bad. But at least in her plans, *she* is also being removed from the world too. She's even supposed to take the player with her. The whole new Order is supposed to go. Nobody left to subjugate everyone.

Right after sahe says she'll remove order, she says this:

And have the certainties of
sight, emotion, faith, and touch...
All become impossibilities.

Most of the Ranni fans leave this bit out and this sounds pretty gruesome to me. Forget religious frenzy she leaves people with nothing at all and this sounds nothing like freedom. The fact that she as a god chooses to do this makes her ending the worst possible choice after the frenzied flame ending.

That's a bad translation. I included the better translation from the original Japanese. The 'it's better if they can't see the Order to inspire belief in it'.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by duck_dodgers:

Originally posted by fmalfeas:

“…Even if life and souls are one with the order, it (the order) could be kept far away.”
“If it was not possible to clearly see, feel, believe in, or touch the order… That would be better.”
On her version of the Ring - "Whoever thou mayest be, take not the ring from this place, the solitude beyond the night is better mine alone."

Ranni's ending is that there's no gods left in the world. All hauled away into the dark for a thousand years. The stars kept far away from the world. Nothing to drive people to religious frenzy. No gods to compel obedience or toy with people.

The path she takes to get there is *horrible*, but her end goal is the only one that lets people be free.

Goldmask's ending, on the other hand, reads like he's removing ambition and desire in order to stop conflict. Basically leaving the world a bunch of listless living zombies.

As for Ranni becoming horrible - She murdered the *soul* of her brother, bringing about undeath as a spreading plague as bad as the Scarlet Rot in order to make it possible to do all this. She's pretty bad. But at least in her plans, *she* is also being removed from the world too. She's even supposed to take the player with her. The whole new Order is supposed to go. Nobody left to subjugate everyone.

Right after sahe says she'll remove order, she says this:

And have the certainties of
sight, emotion, faith, and touch...
All become impossibilities.

Most of the Ranni fans leave this bit out and this sounds pretty gruesome to me. Forget religious frenzy she leaves people with nothing at all and this sounds nothing like freedom. The fact that she as a god chooses to do this makes her ending the worst possible choice after the frenzied flame ending.

That's not really sinister, she's talking about how the order, the current order, makes life and dogma inextricable. It's especially clear in Japanese that she means separating faith from the way people are made to live. She's not talking about making it so you can't see/feel/believe/touch or whatever, she's talking about not repeating the same mistake as the Golden Order, which was to lock people into endless conflict/war as a display of living.

Marika even says that she demanded her children to aspire to something or to become nothing at all, and Ranni's Order is the opposite of that kind of belief system. And Marika was just talking about her children in that instance, but the fact that if you didn't have, for instance, the "Grace of Gold" that Messmer could just go "I'm going to kill you", Ranni saw the problem in the way the Two Fingers, the Greater Will, and the constant suffering and meddling in people's lives they had were causing abject suffering. Her means of destroying the order is told in this divine fashion, but it's funny because it's basically culminated in her swearing herself in. It's a new governance/rule.

That separation between the way people live and the principles that Ranni says define her order is what sets her apart. And it's an interesting way of adding specifics to this kind of story we've seen told so many times with scarce detail.

[Elymnir]

I think the jars in the lands between are stuffed with horsents, as a revenge from marika. A typical "an eye for an eye" kind of situation.