The main issue with rellana

[Wheee333ee33e3e]

She's too easy if you use bleed or poise damage, and not the easiest if you don't.

So there's a whole bunch of people who got to stun and/or bleed her as she does her slow as transition, and a whole other bunch who didn't and had to fight her with massive damage from her blades. So to a whole bunch of people, she's as easy as an elite level enemy, and to others, she's a proper boss, so all the complain threads get flooded with git gud from people with the easier experience

If you bleed/stun her as she transitions, you can get her down to 25%, after which she'll do her moon attacks immediately after her volcano, where she's vulnerable for a big combo (keep jumping towards her), and you can get her down to 10% or even finish her off.

Her 2nd form isn't even that bad, just extreme damage if you get caught in her magic projectile combo. Her swords also deal massive damage, but her openings also involve getting hit bigly if you miss - her x slice and her carian sovereignty.

[zab]

Originally posted by Wheee333ee33e3e:

She's too easy if you use bleed or poise damage, and not the easiest if you don't.

this goes for most of the game

[TheMoogle42]

you could make this argument for most bosses within the game. Death birds can be 2 shot using last rites duo brothers like to nap, end the end boss radahn is made easy using a shield. dragons dont like grease, meliana scared of getting cold it goes on. I believe the term would be work hard or smart. you either "git gud" with your katana or you read learn and find weaknesses

[BingusDingus]

Bleed and poise damage makes every boss too easy. Though many of the enemies and bosses in the DLC have hyperarmor and super high poise so have fun trying to stagger them.

[w0Lart]

idk, i just kill it with spells + sword, without any bleed/poison stuff - just play

[Zoid13]

game with 400 weapons in 40 category's with customisation options.... what exactly do you balance towards lol

[deadshooter]

Originally posted by Zoid13:

game with 400 weapons in 40 category's with customisation options.... what exactly do you balance towards lol

I dunno... Remnant 2 somehow does balance with it's variety of builds

[BingusDingus]

Originally posted by Zoid13:

game with 400 weapons in 40 category's with customisation options.... what exactly do you balance towards lol

Simple. Everything is viable and nothing is massively more viable than anything else. It's really not hard to achieve if you put in some time, I could probably do it myself in about 4 to 5 weeks with 8 hours a day.

EDIT: If you want a gold standard to work towards for balance, i'd choose the claymore, not great at anything but not bad at anything either. The epitome of balanced.
You shouldn't have say 3 weapons that all do the same thing but have 1 being massively better than the rest, a large amount of the weapons in Elden Ring fall under this problem.

[Samseng Yik]

The bigger issue is unrelated to Rellana.
Is about weapon with status out-perform most weapon without status.

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by deadshooter:

Originally posted by Zoid13:

game with 400 weapons in 40 category's with customisation options.... what exactly do you balance towards lol

I dunno... Remnant 2 somehow does balance with it's variety of builds

i started the game in 2022 as a bandit with daggers and used them for half the game transitioning to raptor talons (which i still use to this day cos i like them lol)

fast 1 handers have always been "harder" to play with imo as a good portion of enemies just poise through anything you do outside of a buildup proc. so you either trade constantly if your being lazy whit berserk attacking into their face to get to the build up ASAP or you have to play the in and out game on every enemy doing chip damage.

after clearing the DLC i started from scratch with a colossal build (first time i tried them out) its like playing a completely different game. its sooo much easier. everything just stumbles every-time they even look at your weapon and never get an attack in lol

hard to balance that kind of poise system with such variance (not even mentioning the ranged spell builds or the heavy + shield poke immortal builds where you're the poise monster)

i just look at it like a choice of how you want to tackle the game. i still have more fun playing raptor talons. colossal is far too easy imo.

Originally posted by BingusDingus:

EDIT: If you want a gold standard to work towards for balance, i'd choose the claymore, not great at anything but not bad at anything either. The epitome of balanced.
You shouldn't have say 3 weapons that all do the same thing but have 1 being massively better than the rest, a large amount of the weapons in Elden Ring fall under this problem.

thats the thing though. you go down that route and everything feels samey and homogenised. at which point the game is then more about the ashes of war than the weapon choice. and you run into the same issue of which ones are better in more situations than the others as they all function very differently some being super useful constantly some being super useful once in a blue moon.

you lose out on the more interesting choices on how you want to tackle things.
fast and mobile play with super fast weapons
slow overpowering play with incredibly slow weapons that crush enemies
longer range vs the short range of daggers
big combos vs single hits.
easier vs harder through your own choice of weapons.
ect ect


today's gaming with the internet everything is always min maxed in a matter of days and the consensus of which is more effective and efficient quickly becomes the 'meta' that you see the vast majority of people using.

[BingusDingus]

Originally posted by Zoid13:

Originally posted by deadshooter:

I dunno... Remnant 2 somehow does balance with it's variety of builds

i started the game in 2022 as a bandit with daggers and used them for half the game transitioning to raptor talons (which i still use to this day cos i like them lol)

fast 1 handers have always been "harder" to play with imo as a good portion of enemies just poise through anything you do outside of a buildup proc. so you either trade constantly if your being lazy whit berserk attacking into their face to get to the build up ASAP or you have to play the in and out game on every enemy doing chip damage.

after clearing the DLC i started from scratch with a colossal build (first time i tried them out) its like playing a completely different game. its sooo much easier. everything just stumbles every-time they even look at your weapon and never get an attack in lol

hard to balance that kind of poise system with such variance (not even mentioning the ranged spell builds or the heavy + shield poke immortal builds where you're the poise monster)

i just look at it like a choice of how you want to tackle the game. i still have more fun playing raptor talons. colossal is far too easy imo.

I do agree with that as i have the same experience with one handed weapons as for the most part many of the enemies who're an actual threat will no be flinched by light weapons, outside of bleed anyways as a bleed proc will cause the enemy to flinch.

Heavier weapons like greatswords and above have the added benefit of flinching enemies, which is part of the reason they're even viable as the recovery on them is slow.
This is actually an issue i had with heavier weapons in the DLC as some enemies like the Horned warrior just do not flinch and I've only ever staggered them a few times. I ended up having to switch to a lighter weapon, i was primarily using a Claymore before hand, and the heavier weapon would just lead to me being killed on the recovery as they start their next combo before I could even recover.

[BingusDingus]

Originally posted by Zoid13:

Originally posted by BingusDingus:

EDIT: If you want a gold standard to work towards for balance, i'd choose the claymore, not great at anything but not bad at anything either. The epitome of balanced.
You shouldn't have say 3 weapons that all do the same thing but have 1 being massively better than the rest, a large amount of the weapons in Elden Ring fall under this problem.

thats the thing though. you go down that route and everything feels samey and homogenised. at which point the game is then more about the ashes of war than the weapon choice. and you run into the same issue of which ones are better in more situations than the others as they all function very differently some being super useful constantly some being super useful once in a blue moon.

you lose out on the more interesting choices on how you want to tackle things.
fast and mobile play with super fast weapons
slow overpowering play with incredibly slow weapons that crush enemies
longer range vs the short range of daggers
big combos vs single hits.
easier vs harder through your own choice of weapons.
ect ect

Have to hard disagree there. Feeling forced into the same weapons and builds because everything else feels like you're artificially nerfing yourself feels samey and homogenised.

Good balance does nothing but give you more options. Everything should be fun, not 90% suck and 10% be so good you feel stupid for using anything else.

For example, my favorite weapon in the game is the Serpentbone blade. I love everything about it, other than the fact that you cannot change the ash of war, an basic ash of war, on a weapon that takes normal smithing stones mind you. This alone destroys most of the viability of this weapon because using it is like handicapping myself.

There's also a plethora of weapons with piss poor scaling.

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by BingusDingus:

I do agree with that as i have the same experience with one handed weapons as for the most part many of the enemies who're an actual threat will no be flinched by light weapons, outside of bleed anyways as a bleed proc will cause the enemy to flinch.

Heavier weapons like greatswords and above have the added benefit of flinching enemies, which is part of the reason they're even viable as the recovery on them is slow.
This is actually an issue i had with heavier weapons in the DLC as some enemies like the Horned warrior just do not flinch and I've only ever staggered them a few times. I ended up having to switch to a lighter weapon, i was primarily using a Claymore before hand, and the heavier weapon would just lead to me being killed on the recovery as they start their next combo before I could even recover.

yeah the horned warrior poise monstrosities are annoying. best to parry using that new tear :)

[Ichi-niiPL]

Everything is easy if you use cheese strats like bleed lol. You want a better challenge? Don't use it - i use strength build myself and in my opinion she's tougher than messmer at least for my playstyle.

[Mecharion]

There is no problem

I made a save infront of her and killed her arround 15 times. (Because i wasnt statisfied with my first struggeling kill#

Did it with big 2h weapons
With quality build
With spells
With several ashes of war
With several weapons

Of course you have to adapt a bit for her because she is no joke. But as long as you have a weapons with some range you are fine.

Moonveil was the easiest kill even if she has magic resistance.

[Zoid13]

Originally posted by BingusDingus:

Have to hard disagree there. Feeling forced into the same weapons and builds because everything else feels like you're artificially nerfing yourself feels samey and homogenised.

Good balance does nothing but give you more options. Everything should be fun, not 90% suck and 10% be so good you feel stupid for using anything else.

while i agree, anything that heads towards more balance is in turn still homogenising as in order to balance things more you need bring them closer together in effectiveness in turn making them more similar.
and a fast weapon will always be more effective at X and a slow hard hitter will always be more effective at Y
you'd need to redesign some of the underlying core systems of froms games to achieve a good balance not just altering the weapons.

also jump attacks are a big part of the issue imo lol

Originally posted by BingusDingus:

There's also a plethora of weapons with piss poor scaling.

dont think anyone can disagree on that lol
should be far more weapons that end up on B to S when they are fully upgraded. having a +10 or 25 and having D and E scaling is silly lol

my faves are raptor talons, and i just use them with quickstep. i like it more than roll spam. reminds me more of bloodbornes movement :P