Scadu fragments ruin the core idea behind Souls Games

[Kalvix]

Now hear me out, as I'm sure some people will already be saying thats a huge over the top statement to make about 1 change to the game BUT it's actually kinda true. One of the big reasons that Souls games have never had a difficulty mode has been that by doing so, it creates a more shared sense of accomplishment, when you say you managed to beat a boss, people know you had a very similar experience to them, especially if you had a similar RL, which most people will.

But have you noticed with the DLC it's become a common question when people complain about a boss... "oh but how many scadu do you have?". Scadu have more or less become the difficulty modes we didn't want, separating peoples experience of the game. If you don't explore every nook and cranny for them you'll be finding it way harder, if you do search them all out and leave a boss till you'd got some more it becomes a lot easier.

This difference feels even greater than the effect RL and weapon upgrades, as its a given you'll have a +25 by end-game, and by the time you hit RL150 your build is already pretty optimised, so getting more levels becomes more about more and more options than doing more and more damage or taking less.

These Scadu are separating us all out into how many ranks of it did you have before you fought a boss. And honestly I'm getting kinda tired of "oh you don't have enough Scadu, come back later", as in the base game I never found the issue was "oh your RL is to low, come back later" as it was easy to more or less keep up in RLs, but Scadu if you don't explore the boring open world enough you'll get left behind.

So ye, the scadus while an interesting idea, are the worst thing to ever happen to a souls game.

[Mike]

Автор сообщения: Cacomistle

Автор сообщения: Mike

I never ONCE searched ANYTHING on my first playthrough and I found enough fragments to get to +17 which was more then enough to beat all bosses in cluding the final one. So you can give me all the clown awards all you want (or who ever did), but YOU decided to look up all 50 fragments as the game does not require you to have all them to beat it.

Your literally complaining about a choice you made in your playthrough and are acting like the game "forced" you to do it lol.

I also don't want to die 30 times to every boss. I died 30 times to Rellana on 1 fragment. So I started searching for more fragments.

Like is this complicated? I feel this is like 1+1=2 level logic here and you're confused about it.

LOL I died like 50+ times on that same boss with even more fragments then you and still loved learning that boss fight. So what your really complaining about is bosses being too hard and not really the fragments, because some of the DLC bosses no matter how many fragments you get they will still mop you up until you somewhat get their patterns down, its just you will have the opportunity to make more mistakes with the more fragments you have then with none.

"Like is this complicated? I feel this is like 1+1=2 level logic here and you're confused about it."

Chill just because someone does not agree with your view of them game does not mean they are stupid and can't comprehend what your talking about. So stop this talking down trash just because you and me don't see eye to eye.

My entire point is that with your SAME logic, if you did not get a single upgrade in the base game you would get you butt beat by many of the bosses, just like you get your butt beat by the DLC bosses when you have less fragments.

They are the same systems, its just one require more exploration to get all of them and the other is practically given to the player and their is actually MORE seeds in the game then the player needs so its much easier to stumble upon them.

[Cacomistle]

Автор сообщения: Mike

Автор сообщения: Cacomistle

I also don't want to die 30 times to every boss. I died 30 times to Rellana on 1 fragment. So I started searching for more fragments.

Like is this complicated? I feel this is like 1+1=2 level logic here and you're confused about it.

LOL I died like 50+ times on that same boss with even more fragments then you and still loved learning that boss fight. So what your really complaining about is bosses being too hard and not really the fragments, because some of the DLC bosses no matter how many fragments you get they will still mop you up until you somewhat get their patterns down, its just you will have the opportunity to make more mistakes with the more fragments you have then with none.

"Like is this complicated? I feel this is like 1+1=2 level logic here and you're confused about it."

Chill just because someone does not agree with your view of them game does not mean they are stupid and can't comprehend what your talking about. So stop this talking down trash just because you and me don't see eye to eye.

My entire point is that with your SAME logic, if you did not get a single upgrade in the base game you would get you butt beat by many of the bosses, just like you get your butt beat by the DLC bosses when you have less fragments.

They are the same systems, its just one require more exploration to get all of them and the other is practically given to the player and their is actually MORE seeds in the game then the player needs so its much easier to stumble upon them.

The DLC is not too hard though. Its only too hard if you do not engage with the fragment system at all. If I complained it was too hard, it'd be much like complaining the base game is too hard after trying to beat it with +0 flasks, as you pointed out in your post.


I'll say, on my first playthrough I did the same thing with margit as I did with Rellana, I fought him with 1 golden seed and +0 flasks, and it did not go great for me (he was probably my 3rd most deaths after Malenia, and now Rellana). But first of all, I was new to the game (and souls-likes in general) so it was very obviously a skill issue (I do not have any difficulty beating him without flask upgrades now). But second, and more importantly I could see all these areas of the map that I had not explored with obvious paths to them, and once I knew sacred tears existed I could simply look at the map and figure out where they'd likely be. Plus, I could just level up.


In other words, the problem with the dlc is that the exploration is convoluted. Not that it exists at all. If they were not convoluted to find, scadutree would be pretty similar to flasks, and better than smithing stones. In the base game, if I wanted to go north, I went north. In the dlc if I want to go north, I go south first and then find a path that leads north underground where there's no map.

[Mike]

Автор сообщения: Cacomistle

Автор сообщения: Mike

I never ONCE searched ANYTHING on my first playthrough and I found enough fragments to get to +17 which was more then enough to beat all bosses in cluding the final one. So you can give me all the clown awards all you want (or who ever did), but YOU decided to look up all 50 fragments as the game does not require you to have all them to beat it.

Your literally complaining about a choice you made in your playthrough and are acting like the game "forced" you to do it lol.

Also I didn't find all 50. I looked up the basic information on how they work, because I'd otherwise for instance never have gone around hitting guys holding pots over their head, or bothered fighting pushover hippos. I found a few based on pictures and stopped bothering after I was easily killing all the minibosses. I got like 13 for messmer, which was honestly overkill.

So when playing these games do you only run straight to the bosses? Do you explore and kill enemies that are not bosses? Or do you just choose to run past 99% of the game and then complain your too weak to take on some of these really hard bosses? I really don't get your complaints when every single one of them is because of your own decisions and not the games systems that are laid out to the player.

When I was naturally exploring the game world and saw those pot dudes with the sparkling effect I was like "ohh shiny", went and killed them, got the fragment and from that point on it was OBVIOUS how some of the fragments were hidden. The same with the hippos, as the base game taught me that bossee that are reused in some way will reward the player for fighting them again (it was the case with every dragon, gargoyle, crucible knight,...etc).

Once again if you don't like it cool, but how can you complain when you specifically CHOOSE to not engage with the game and instead just look up solutions that are easily solved by just playing the game?

Anyway, we will never see eye to eye, so to each their own, even if it makes no sense to me personally.

[Mike]

Автор сообщения: Cacomistle

Автор сообщения: Mike

LOL I died like 50+ times on that same boss with even more fragments then you and still loved learning that boss fight. So what your really complaining about is bosses being too hard and not really the fragments, because some of the DLC bosses no matter how many fragments you get they will still mop you up until you somewhat get their patterns down, its just you will have the opportunity to make more mistakes with the more fragments you have then with none.

"Like is this complicated? I feel this is like 1+1=2 level logic here and you're confused about it."

Chill just because someone does not agree with your view of them game does not mean they are stupid and can't comprehend what your talking about. So stop this talking down trash just because you and me don't see eye to eye.

My entire point is that with your SAME logic, if you did not get a single upgrade in the base game you would get you butt beat by many of the bosses, just like you get your butt beat by the DLC bosses when you have less fragments.

They are the same systems, its just one require more exploration to get all of them and the other is practically given to the player and their is actually MORE seeds in the game then the player needs so its much easier to stumble upon them.

The DLC is not too hard though. Its only too hard if you do not engage with the fragment system at all. If I complained it was too hard, it'd be much like complaining the base game is too hard after trying to beat it with +0 flasks, as you pointed out in your post.


I'll say, on my first playthrough I did the same thing with margit as I did with Rellana, I fought him with 1 golden seed and +0 flasks, and it did not go great for me (he was probably my 3rd most deaths after Malenia, and now Rellana). But first of all, I was new to the game (and souls-likes in general) so it was very obviously a skill issue (I do not have any difficulty beating him without flask upgrades now). But second, I could see all these areas of the map that I had not explored with obvious paths to them, and once I knew sacred tears existed I could simply look at the map and figure out where they'd likely be.


In other words, the problem with the dlc is that the exploration is convoluted. Not that it exists at all. If they were not convoluted to find, scadutree would be pretty similar to flasks, and better than smithing stones.

They are "convoluted to find" to YOU, as I and many others had no issue finding plenty fragments to take on the harder bosses.

[Cacomistle]

Автор сообщения: Mike

Автор сообщения: Cacomistle

Also I didn't find all 50. I looked up the basic information on how they work, because I'd otherwise for instance never have gone around hitting guys holding pots over their head, or bothered fighting pushover hippos. I found a few based on pictures and stopped bothering after I was easily killing all the minibosses. I got like 13 for messmer, which was honestly overkill.

So when playing these games do you only run straight to the bosses? Do you explore and kill enemies that are not bosses? Or do you just choose to run past 99% of the game and then complain your too weak to take on some of these really hard bosses? I really don't get your complaints when every single one of them is because of your own decisions and not the games systems that are laid out to the player.

When I was naturally exploring the game world and saw those pot dudes with the sparkling effect I was like "ohh shiny", went and killed them, got the fragment and from that point on it was OBVIOUS how some of the fragments were hidden. The same with the hippos, as the base game taught me that bossee that are reused in some way will reward the player for fighting them again (it was the case with every dragon, gargoyle, crucible knight,...etc).

Once again if you don't like it cool, but how can you complain when you specifically CHOOSE to not engage with the game and instead just look up solutions that are easily solved by just playing the game?

Anyway, we will never see eye to eye, so to each their own, even if it makes no sense to me personally.

I explore some. But I don't explore every nook and cranny. The paths to several areas (as in, most of them) were not in obvious locations.

You get to the charon grave area or whatever by going through a catacombs that leads west then going back east to the charon grave. You go to the northern area by going south and then going north underground where there's no map. You go to the southern area by going southeast then way north underground then back south, or going all the way from the nothern area. You go to the abyssal woods through a catacombs. That area in the far west you get to by jumping down a hole in some ruins.

What major area in the base game was not simply "walk in that direction"? There's like, the sofia river grave, but also you don't need to go there for anything. Maybe the area you get after killing radahn but I mean they made that so obvious you basically couldn't miss it. The most convoluted thing you had to do was either figure out you can go around the lift in north liurnia, if you didn't already explore enough to find the 2 medallions. Maybe mohg and malenia were complicated, I don't fully remember how you get to them, but maybe that's also part of why I think the game got worse (it was still good, just not as good) when you got to the snow plains, and also you don't miss any power ups if you skip them.

I am not the type of player who goes and looks at everything. I look at the things that interest me, and move on. I couldn't go south, so I assumed I was supposed to go south later. I couldn't go north, so I thought I was supposed to go north later. The obvious conclusion to me was that I was supposed to Rellana's castle, and maybe be a bit underpowered but not "deal 700 damage with charged heavies against a boss with 30k health" underpowered.


Also, I'd very likely have killed the hippos anyways. But I never saw one of the guys with pots. They just happened to be in parts of the map I didn't walk to (probably because at a distance I just saw a bunch of the regular enemies, and figured "oh there's nothing there").

[Mike]

Автор сообщения: Cacomistle

Автор сообщения: Mike

So when playing these games do you only run straight to the bosses? Do you explore and kill enemies that are not bosses? Or do you just choose to run past 99% of the game and then complain your too weak to take on some of these really hard bosses? I really don't get your complaints when every single one of them is because of your own decisions and not the games systems that are laid out to the player.

When I was naturally exploring the game world and saw those pot dudes with the sparkling effect I was like "ohh shiny", went and killed them, got the fragment and from that point on it was OBVIOUS how some of the fragments were hidden. The same with the hippos, as the base game taught me that bossee that are reused in some way will reward the player for fighting them again (it was the case with every dragon, gargoyle, crucible knight,...etc).

Once again if you don't like it cool, but how can you complain when you specifically CHOOSE to not engage with the game and instead just look up solutions that are easily solved by just playing the game?

Anyway, we will never see eye to eye, so to each their own, even if it makes no sense to me personally.

I explore some. But I don't explore every nook and cranny. The paths to several areas (as in, most of them) were not in obvious locations.

You get to the charon grave area or whatever by going through a catacombs that leads west then going back east to the charon grave. You go to the northern area by going south and then going north underground where there's no map. You go to the southern area by going southeast then way north underground then back south, or going all the way from the nothern area. You go to the abyssal woods through a catacombs. That area in the far west you get to by jumping down a hole in some ruins.

What major area in the base game was not simply "walk in that direction"? There's like, the sofia river grave, but also you don't need to go there for anything. Maybe the area you get after killing radahn but I mean they made that so obvious you basically couldn't miss it. The most convoluted thing you had to do was either figure out you can go around the lift in north liurnia, if you didn't already explore enough to find the 2 medallions.

I am not the type of player who goes and looks at everything. I look at the things that interest me, and move on. I couldn't go south, so I assumed I was supposed to go south later. I couldn't go north, so I thought I was supposed to go north later. The obvious conclusion to me was that I was supposed to Rellana's castle, and maybe be a bit underpowered but not "deal 700 damage with charged heavies against a boss with 30k health" underpowered.

Look I have my issues with with ER's open world as well, but if there was ONE thing that the base game teaches the player is that the more you explore the more your rewarded, its just with the DLC they emphasized that exploration much more due to how they layered the world.

You don't have to like to but its not like the base game was not like this as well to some extent.

Still at the end of the day even you admited that the way you specifically interact with the game hindered your enjoyment of the game, so is that the games fault or the player? This is still an open world game at the end of the day so, the more if emphasizes exploration the better and more rewarding exploration feels.

ER is in a weird place because some people complain exploration sucks (i disagree with), some people complain that they don't like exploration an just be line it to the bosses (also disagree with), ...etc.

Imo ER is a victim of becoming a world wide phenomenon to the point that the it has reached people that maybe the game is not particularly made for. So this causes much more complaining and nitpicking then a normal game would usually get.

Its funny to because I use to be super harsh on ER, but after this DLC in particular I have learned to appreciate both the base game and the DLC much more then I did on release. For me personally this DLC is one of the best FS have ever done, both in terms of quality content, boss fights, weapons/gear, story/lore additions,....etc.

[Kalvix]

Автор сообщения: Mike

Автор сообщения: Cacomistle

I explore some. But I don't explore every nook and cranny. The paths to several areas (as in, most of them) were not in obvious locations.

You get to the charon grave area or whatever by going through a catacombs that leads west then going back east to the charon grave. You go to the northern area by going south and then going north underground where there's no map. You go to the southern area by going southeast then way north underground then back south, or going all the way from the nothern area. You go to the abyssal woods through a catacombs. That area in the far west you get to by jumping down a hole in some ruins.

What major area in the base game was not simply "walk in that direction"? There's like, the sofia river grave, but also you don't need to go there for anything. Maybe the area you get after killing radahn but I mean they made that so obvious you basically couldn't miss it. The most convoluted thing you had to do was either figure out you can go around the lift in north liurnia, if you didn't already explore enough to find the 2 medallions.

I am not the type of player who goes and looks at everything. I look at the things that interest me, and move on. I couldn't go south, so I assumed I was supposed to go south later. I couldn't go north, so I thought I was supposed to go north later. The obvious conclusion to me was that I was supposed to Rellana's castle, and maybe be a bit underpowered but not "deal 700 damage with charged heavies against a boss with 30k health" underpowered.

Look I have my issues with with ER's open world as well, but if there was ONE thing that the base game teaches the player is that the more you explore the more your rewarded, its just with the DLC they emphasized that exploration much more due to how they layered the world.

You don't have to like to but its not like the base game was not like this as well to some extent.

Still at the end of the day even you admited that the way you specifically interact with the game hindered your enjoyment of the game, so is that the games fault or the player? This is still an open world game at the end of the day so, the more if emphasizes exploration the better and more rewarding exploration feels.

ER is in a weird place because some people complain exploration sucks (i disagree with), some people complain that they don't like exploration an just be line it to the bosses (also disagree with), ...etc.

Imo ER is a victim of becoming a world wide phenomenon to the point that the it has reached people that maybe the game is not particularly made for. So this causes much more complaining and nitpicking then a normal game would usually get.

Its funny to because I use to be super harsh on ER, but after this DLC in particular I have learned to appreciate both the base game and the DLC much more then I did on release. For me personally this DLC is one of the best FS have ever done, both in terms of quality content, boss fights, weapons/gear, story/lore additions,....etc.

The people who don't like the exploration often don't dislike it entirely, they just preferred it in previous souls games where you could find cool little hidden areas if you looked around while playing. In Elden Ring though you need to wander a huge empty map to try and find things, and way to often you end up heading down a path that leads way to often to:

A. Nothing.

B. An Ateria leaf

C. Some souls.

It's become a meme that you end up going exploring what you think is a cool hidden area only to find! a crafting item... most likely one of those damn leaves.

But also ye after thinking about it Elden Ring and the DLC both have the issue of terrible pacing, it just feels like the Scadus make it much worse, as in the base game I often ended up over levelled purely by exploring everything, but never found myself thinking "oh wow this is way to hard I should come back", meanwhile in the DLC I often find myself thinking "man do I need to go a different way to farm more Scadu leaves?" purely because bosses are doing 1/2 health a hit with combos so long you'd think each hit should do way less.