The DLC butchers Malenia & Miquella's relationship and the plot twist is contrived.

[ArleniaSery]

The Embarrassing Differences:

Miquella in the Land of Shadow is in the process of abandoning himself, his love, emotions etc. Yet we aren't given a single piece of lore anywhere that describes the process by which he departs himself from (what should be) the most important person in his life, his sister. I'll explain later how the base game implies he does love his sister. Let's compare his and Malenia's dialogues first:

How Malenia treats Miquella:

- In her opening cutscene: I await the return of my brother, look how sad I am about it.

- Her death: I apologise my dear brother for dying.

- Her armour: My brother is the best.

- 75% of her character is about Miquella.

How Miquella treats Malenia :

- He references his beloved sister as his "loyal blade". There are no past mentions, like notes during his divestment process. Remember when we got there, Miquella was still in the process of divesting parts of himself. He had not fully become devoid of everything. They could have shown him losing his love for Malenia as he's becoming a God.

Unrequited Love:

Have you ever read a book where one character loves another and it's their whole identity and then you find out that the other person doesn't give a single ♥♥♥♥ about them? Yeah that's the DLC. Unrequited love characters are awkward and kind of pathetic. Which Malenia is the opposite of.

That isn't entirely my issue though. This aspect still butchers and disrespects Malenia's character to an extent but it's the way it's executed that is also a problem. This could've been done well. Imagine if, at a Miquella's Cross it said: here I abandon my love for my sister, and an NPC tells you that they figured out how/why Miquella never loved Malenia or stopped loving her. The issue is that it's like the Daenery's Season 8 of Game of Thrones meme, "she kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet". She has no involvement in a DLC that is about the closest person in her life. It makes her look like a pathetic and forgotten character.

Character Assassination:

Imagine if you told someone who only played the DLC that Miquella and Malenia are actually twins, that they grew up together, that they both shared the same trauma and pain, that Miquella abandoned the largest, most powerful religion in the Lands Between, the Golden Order, because he wanted to help her, that she's named after him, that there are statues in the Haligtree of them embracing, that Malenia called him out tenderly by name multiple times whilst literally dying. How ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ gobsmacked would they be?

I don't personally think so but, with how she's ignored by the narrative, it's as if the DLC wants us to think there was a façade in their relationship. If so then where in the DLC is the façade ever dissected? Where is it talked about and evaluated by an NPC, or via items? I read every single item I came across. My playthrough was 50 hours long. I made tons of notes. Malenia is mentioned only 1 time. Radahn's armour tells us that Miquella advised Malenia to go fight Radahn and bloom and what she whispered, suggesting she was in on the whole Radahn Consort plan. That's it.

They're Inseparable:

In the base game it was always Miquella and Malenia, those names were inseparable, even though they were separated physically. Malenia's love for Miquella is super apparent but surely, with the way the Miquella DLC treats Malenia as an afterthought, as just some person who was once loyal to Miquella I guess, then it means that Miquella kind of just didn't like Malenia all that much, and his need to be a God superseded any familial relations... right?

Surely this piece of established, objective lore means nothing then: "And yet, the young Miquella abandoned fundamentalism, for it could do nothing to treat Malenia's accursed rot." This quote heavily implies that Miquella sought for a way to treat Malenia, and he first tried Golden Order Fundamentalism but left when it didn't work. So if his goal is to treat his sister, then he obviously cares about her.

Some could argue that he didn't want to cure her because he cared for her, but because he wanted to (insert whatever evil objective) and needed a pure Malenia to achieve it, implying his departure from the Golden Order and subsequent establishment of Unalloyed Gold was an attempt at a means to an end, the end being Godhood. Then we go back again to... why wasn't this explored in the DLC in relation to Malenia?

Radahn and Miquella's Relationship:

In the base game there isn't any tangible connection of a vow, or a promise made between Radahn and Miquella of all people. It just feels soooo out of left field and contrived. There didn't need to give us anything obvious, just give me the esoteric, vague lore drop in the base game... but they didn't (example: you find a random flower item that says: 'this young bud would never grow, it's innocent protected by the fearsome lion; a vow was made, never to be broken' ). In the Elden Ring text database there are only 2 instances where Radahn and Miquella are mentioned in the same sentence in the base game:

One is Morgott's cutscene where he's just naming the Demigods and the other is Gideon's dialogue, where he says this:

"I'd expect to find Malenia there. She who fought Radahn to a standstill. But...with the Haligtree as it is... I suppose Miquella must already be...".

Not much to go off in building even the slightest connection between them. And if there was a secret promise made between Miquella and Malenia to elevate Miquella to god-hood with a vow from Radahn, then why wasn't Malenia's part, as his twin and collaborator, explored at all?

Some Pests > Malenia:

The DLC explores Godwyn (Catacombs and Death Knights), Radahn (Freya, End Boss, Gauis), Mohg (Ansbach), Marika (literally everywhere) but not Malenia, the closest person to Miquella. Moore's Brood, the docile Children of Rot, have more characterisation and care given to them than the poster child for Elden Ring, let that sink in. There's a sizeable Scarlet Rot section but no Malenia mention. You could say that she was explored already... but so was everyone else I listed.

Conclusion:

Honestly, unlike some others, I love the difficulty of the DLC, and I love the end game bosses in base Elden Ring too. I love the Elden Ring boss design formula (multiple + delayed attacks etc I don't care that everyone else dislikes it). The visuals were 10/10, exploration was world-class. I had barely any performance issues. But I fear they missed the mark of the story this time. They disrespected their most popular character by treating her like barely an afterthought, pulled a Miquella/Radahn storyline out of their ass and went against established lore.

I hope someone makes a compelling lore video that clears everything up for me, and it all makes sense. I really don't want to hate the story because I love everything else.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Първоначално публикувано от rhoenix:

Първоначално публикувано от Eren Jäger:

It's just a question of which ending is canon and which isn't.

If you assume that the restoration of the golden order is the classic ending and therefore canon, then I believe that we were chosen by Marika at the beginning of the game to save the The Lands Between . I would argue that it is no coincidence that Melina (Marika's daughter) finds us and leads us through The Lands Between.

Others can (and likely will) disagree with me on this, but - the more times I've played Elden Ring, the more I've begun to suspect that the player character, that specific Tarnished, is Marika's final chess move against the Greater Will.

There's very little to disagree with given that so much of the narrative and plot bits that you receive are about how Marika orchestrated the downfall of The Golden Order, The Shattering, the baby she gave birth to to literally set the tree on fire... I mean, even Mesmer's words or the way he regards you makes it even LESS subtle.

[Key]

Първоначално публикувано от An Irate Walrus:

Първоначално публикувано от Paulo Ramos:

The Tarnished is the lord of the golden order but Miquella wants to be a god to create a new order. Miquella's tree was his first attempt to create a new order but it didn't work. Even Marika was sad because the haligtree failled to replace the erdtree.

I'd argue the Tarnished is the only critter capable of becoming a Lord--not specifically of the Golden Order (though they can choose that)--but just in general. Given that we can side with Ranni, gut the GO's primary method of recycling believers by adding the rune of death to the ER, or even burn it all, our character (beyond just having main character syndrome like mad) is literally the only person in the game apart from Godfrey who can handle that mantle of power.

Rennala was a de-facto Elden Lord, an off-the-record one because people in the Lands Between don't know that Radagon = Marika, but she was effectively an Elden Lord, and mother of Demigods, or well, Elden Lady?

We also have Placidusaax mentioned as an Elden Lord before the Golden Order was a thing.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Първоначално публикувано от rhoenix:

Others can (and likely will) disagree with me on this, but - the more times I've played Elden Ring, the more I've begun to suspect that the player character, that specific Tarnished, is Marika's final chess move against the Greater Will.

That's exactly it. One of the most obvious pieces of evidence (there are many, but I'm too lazy to list them all) supporting that claim is the blacksmith Hewg who was "commissioned" by Marika to create a weapon capable of killing a god. And that's exactly what he ends up doing for you when you kill the Elden Beast.

[Eren Jäger]

Първоначално публикувано от rhoenix:

Първоначално публикувано от Eren Jäger:

It's just a question of which ending is canon and which isn't.

If you assume that the restoration of the golden order is the classic ending and therefore canon, then I believe that we were chosen by Marika at the beginning of the game to save the The Lands Between . I would argue that it is no coincidence that Melina (Marika's daughter) finds us and leads us through The Lands Between.

Others can (and likely will) disagree with me on this, but - the more times I've played Elden Ring, the more I've begun to suspect that the player character, that specific Tarnished, is Marika's final chess move against the Greater Will.

I think this is especially true given the influences at hand that can suggest that the Tarnished would try to re-activate (or recreate) the Golden Order she set in place, but there are other influences that suggest the Golden Order could be put to bed forever.

Yes, from her view this opens the door to the Frenzied Flame gaining prominence, and that to Marika would be a worst-case outcome. But given the way the possible outcomes all work out, even that worst case would still be a win for her, since all her works (and mistakes) would therefore be turned to ash. The same would be true for Ranni's outcome, as there Marika's decisions and outcomes would just become past history, made irrelevant in the current circumstances.

There are many darts I can throw at her decision-making and the headspaces she made those decisions from, but I do respect Marika's chess moves.

I agree with you. I think the DLC finally confirmed that. Now that we know that the fingers haven't had contact with the greater will in ages and have lied and manipulated Marika, it all makes sense.

I think Ranni noticed that first. Hence her determination to get rid of the fingers. Her assassination attempt on Godwyn was brutal, but that was the defining moment when Marika realized that it was all a lie and that she was actually a prisoner.

[rhoenix]

Първоначално публикувано от Persona Au Gratin:

Първоначално публикувано от rhoenix:

Others can (and likely will) disagree with me on this, but - the more times I've played Elden Ring, the more I've begun to suspect that the player character, that specific Tarnished, is Marika's final chess move against the Greater Will.

There's very little to disagree with given that so much of the narrative and plot bits that you receive are about how Marika orchestrated the downfall of The Golden Order, The Shattering, the baby she gave birth to to literally set the tree on fire... I mean, even Mesmer's words or the way he regards you makes it even LESS subtle.

Първоначално публикувано от CourtesyFlush09:

That's exactly it. One of the most obvious pieces of evidence (there are many, but I'm too lazy to list them all) supporting that claim is the blacksmith Hewg who was "commissioned" by Marika to create a weapon capable of killing a god. And that's exactly what he ends up doing for you when you kill the Elden Beast.

You're both right on this. My understanding up until recently was that the Tarnished is some random person Melina had a good feeling about - that while Marika ended up fighting against the Greater Will, and had some contingencies setup you could take advantage of, it was a happy coincidence (game logic) that you're taking advantage of - right person, right place, right time, basically. That her desires were to fix the flaws of the Golden Order, she had just given up on how.

This may be just me missing details up until now, and if so I'll happily grant that in advance. However... It wasn't until after the DLC that my understanding shifted to being that Marika had most definitely lined up resources and people in such a way that the outcomes would *all* serve her purposes. That no matter what ending is chosen, she wins more than she loses, and she had managed to edit the equation used to ensure that.

It may have been seeing how Miquella tried to (badly) copy her playbook that helped it sink in, honestly.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Първоначално публикувано от rhoenix:

Първоначално публикувано от Persona Au Gratin:

There's very little to disagree with given that so much of the narrative and plot bits that you receive are about how Marika orchestrated the downfall of The Golden Order, The Shattering, the baby she gave birth to to literally set the tree on fire... I mean, even Mesmer's words or the way he regards you makes it even LESS subtle.

Първоначално публикувано от CourtesyFlush09:

That's exactly it. One of the most obvious pieces of evidence (there are many, but I'm too lazy to list them all) supporting that claim is the blacksmith Hewg who was "commissioned" by Marika to create a weapon capable of killing a god. And that's exactly what he ends up doing for you when you kill the Elden Beast.

You're both right on this. My understanding up until recently was that the Tarnished is some random person Melina had a good feeling about - that while Marika ended up fighting against the Greater Will, and had some contingencies setup you could take advantage of, it was a happy coincidence (game logic) that you're taking advantage of - right person, right place, right time, basically. That her desires were to fix the flaws of the Golden Order, she had just given up on how.

This may be just me missing details up until now, and if so I'll happily grant that in advance. However... It wasn't until after the DLC that my understanding shifted to being that Marika had most definitely lined up resources and people in such a way that the outcomes would *all* serve her purposes. That no matter what ending is chosen, she wins more than she loses, and she had managed to edit the equation used to ensure that.

It may have been seeing how Miquella tried to (badly) copy her playbook that helped it sink in, honestly.

One thing the DLC doesn't explain (at least to my knowledge) is if Marika actually planned for Godwyn's assassination as an excuse for shattering the Elden Ring. And was Ranni in on it? It's such a big, wet, gaping plot hole that I'm rather astonished it wasn't touched upon further.

And then there's the whole mystery of why 2 of her kids, Mohg and Morgott, were cursed as Omen. Did Godfrey do something bad, too?

And then there's the whole mystery of....

[rhoenix]

Първоначално публикувано от Eren Jäger:

I agree with you. I think the DLC finally confirmed that. Now that we know that the fingers haven't had contact with the greater will in ages and have lied and manipulated Marika, it all makes sense.

I think Ranni noticed that first. Hence her determination to get rid of the fingers. Her assassination attempt on Godwyn was brutal, but that was the defining moment when Marika realized that it was all a lie and that she was actually a prisoner.

She set up the equation so that even though she dies, the Elden Beast dies too and the Greater Will takes a substantial hit in power & influence - no matter the outcome.

In the better case (Ranni's ending, from that view), and in the worst case (Frenzied Flame), the Greater Will is made entirely irrelevant.

I definitely have to respect that.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Първоначално публикувано от rhoenix:

Първоначално публикувано от Eren Jäger:

I agree with you. I think the DLC finally confirmed that. Now that we know that the fingers haven't had contact with the greater will in ages and have lied and manipulated Marika, it all makes sense.

I think Ranni noticed that first. Hence her determination to get rid of the fingers. Her assassination attempt on Godwyn was brutal, but that was the defining moment when Marika realized that it was all a lie and that she was actually a prisoner.

She set up the equation so that even though she dies, the Elden Beast dies too and the Greater Will takes a substantial hit in power & influence - no matter the outcome.

In the better case (Ranni's ending, from that view), and in the worst case (Frenzied Flame), the Greater Will is made entirely irrelevant.

I definitely have to respect that.

There's also Count Ymir's confession that the influence of the Greater Will faded a LOOOOOONG time ago, even before the beginning of the events of the base game. So the GW was made entirely irrelevant for a while. It's...confusing.

[rhoenix]

Първоначално публикувано от CourtesyFlush09:

One thing the DLC doesn't explain (at least to my knowledge) is if Marika actually planned for Godwyn's assassination as an excuse for shattering the Elden Ring. And was Ranni in on it? It's such a big, wet, gaping plot hole that I'm rather astonished it wasn't touched upon further.

Nothing I saw in the DLC stated anything directly either, but given the above conversation... Maliketh was her Shadow, and Maliketh held the Rune of Death. It doesn't seem at all unreasonable that circumstances could be arranged to help Ranni's plot reach the right outcome once she knew about it.

Whether Marika actually inspired it is an open question, I'll definitely grant - but it at least seems reasonable for her to take advantage of it for her own ends once she found out about Ranni's intentions.

Moreover, it seems very reasonable for her to keep a close eye on goings-on within Liurnia, and the Carian royal family thereof - for multiple reasons.

[Eren Jäger]

Първоначално публикувано от CourtesyFlush09:

Първоначално публикувано от rhoenix:

You're both right on this. My understanding up until recently was that the Tarnished is some random person Melina had a good feeling about - that while Marika ended up fighting against the Greater Will, and had some contingencies setup you could take advantage of, it was a happy coincidence (game logic) that you're taking advantage of - right person, right place, right time, basically. That her desires were to fix the flaws of the Golden Order, she had just given up on how.

This may be just me missing details up until now, and if so I'll happily grant that in advance. However... It wasn't until after the DLC that my understanding shifted to being that Marika had most definitely lined up resources and people in such a way that the outcomes would *all* serve her purposes. That no matter what ending is chosen, she wins more than she loses, and she had managed to edit the equation used to ensure that.

It may have been seeing how Miquella tried to (badly) copy her playbook that helped it sink in, honestly.

One thing the DLC doesn't explain (at least to my knowledge) is if Marika actually planned for Godwyn's assassination as an excuse for shattering the Elden Ring. And was Ranni in on it? It's such a big, wet, gaping plot hole that I'm rather astonished it wasn't touched upon further.

And then there's the whole mystery of why 2 of her kids, Mohg and Morgott, were cursed as Omen. Did Godfrey do something bad, too?

And then there's the whole mystery of....

I think Ranni recognized the lie first. We don't know what her rune was, but perhaps it allowed her to see through the fingers' lies. I guess even if Ranni had told Marika about it, she wouldn't have believed a word.

Hence Ranni’s drastic measures. That was probably the only way to show Marika that she had been lied to and that she and her children were actually prisoners.

[rparham685]

What if........Malenia was under the effect of his charm the whole time? Would that be a possibility?

[CourtesyFlush09]

Първоначално публикувано от Eren Jäger:

I think Ranni recognized the lie first. We don't know what her rune was, but perhaps it allowed her to see through the fingers' lies. I guess even if Ranni had told Marika about it, she wouldn't have believed a word.

I'm thinking she actually would, seeing as they both hated the GW and the Golden Order.

Hmmm now that I think about it, maybe Marika was more than ready to sacrifice Godwyn out of spite for the GW and the Order. After all, Godwyn's moniker was "Godwyn the Golden," so maybe he was a bad reminder of what she hated. And it's been shown throughout the game that Marika is extremely manipulative and ambitious - often going to extremes to get what she wants.

[rhoenix]

Първоначално публикувано от CourtesyFlush09:

There's also Count Ymir's confession that the influence of the Greater Will faded a LOOOOOONG time ago, even before the beginning of the events of the base game. So the GW was made entirely irrelevant for a while. It's...confusing.

I think it was the final straw for her, personally. It doesn't say so directly anywhere, but given her actions and the mindset they were made in, I can make a good educated guess as to her reaction and subsequent actions to finding out the truth about the Greater Will and the Fingers.

The presence of Carian-educated people in the Realm of Shadows suggests to me as well that Marika wanted to encourage research into certain magics out of the eyesight of the Fingers and Elden Beast.

This is still bugging me though - how in the Lands Between did Rellana get convinced to leave her twin Renalla, her kingdom, and even her world behind to fight for the son of the woman who stole her twin's husband? Like, the Carian folk there were likely led by a figure in power, and it makes sense for that figure to also be a member of the Carian family. But... Queen Renalla's twin sister?

[rhoenix]

Първоначално публикувано от rparham685:

What if........Malenia was under the effect of his charm the whole time? Would that be a possibility?

After playing through the DLC... yeah. I'd even consider it probable, as much as I hate to say it.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Първоначално публикувано от rparham685:

What if........Malenia was under the effect of his charm the whole time? Would that be a possibility?

True. I would have loved it if you get extra dialogue from Malenia after you beat her (and after she hatches from her cocoon if you do her side quest).

After all, we do get a notification in SotE that Miquella's rune/enchantment have been broken and that his subjects have snapped out of his seduction, so Malenia snapping out of it too and eventually telling us the truth would have been amazing,

Sigh...another missed opportunity.