The DLC butchers Malenia & Miquella's relationship and the plot twist is contrived.

[ArleniaSery]

The Embarrassing Differences:

Miquella in the Land of Shadow is in the process of abandoning himself, his love, emotions etc. Yet we aren't given a single piece of lore anywhere that describes the process by which he departs himself from (what should be) the most important person in his life, his sister. I'll explain later how the base game implies he does love his sister. Let's compare his and Malenia's dialogues first:

How Malenia treats Miquella:

- In her opening cutscene: I await the return of my brother, look how sad I am about it.

- Her death: I apologise my dear brother for dying.

- Her armour: My brother is the best.

- 75% of her character is about Miquella.

How Miquella treats Malenia :

- He references his beloved sister as his "loyal blade". There are no past mentions, like notes during his divestment process. Remember when we got there, Miquella was still in the process of divesting parts of himself. He had not fully become devoid of everything. They could have shown him losing his love for Malenia as he's becoming a God.

Unrequited Love:

Have you ever read a book where one character loves another and it's their whole identity and then you find out that the other person doesn't give a single ♥♥♥♥ about them? Yeah that's the DLC. Unrequited love characters are awkward and kind of pathetic. Which Malenia is the opposite of.

That isn't entirely my issue though. This aspect still butchers and disrespects Malenia's character to an extent but it's the way it's executed that is also a problem. This could've been done well. Imagine if, at a Miquella's Cross it said: here I abandon my love for my sister, and an NPC tells you that they figured out how/why Miquella never loved Malenia or stopped loving her. The issue is that it's like the Daenery's Season 8 of Game of Thrones meme, "she kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet". She has no involvement in a DLC that is about the closest person in her life. It makes her look like a pathetic and forgotten character.

Character Assassination:

Imagine if you told someone who only played the DLC that Miquella and Malenia are actually twins, that they grew up together, that they both shared the same trauma and pain, that Miquella abandoned the largest, most powerful religion in the Lands Between, the Golden Order, because he wanted to help her, that she's named after him, that there are statues in the Haligtree of them embracing, that Malenia called him out tenderly by name multiple times whilst literally dying. How ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ gobsmacked would they be?

I don't personally think so but, with how she's ignored by the narrative, it's as if the DLC wants us to think there was a façade in their relationship. If so then where in the DLC is the façade ever dissected? Where is it talked about and evaluated by an NPC, or via items? I read every single item I came across. My playthrough was 50 hours long. I made tons of notes. Malenia is mentioned only 1 time. Radahn's armour tells us that Miquella advised Malenia to go fight Radahn and bloom and what she whispered, suggesting she was in on the whole Radahn Consort plan. That's it.

They're Inseparable:

In the base game it was always Miquella and Malenia, those names were inseparable, even though they were separated physically. Malenia's love for Miquella is super apparent but surely, with the way the Miquella DLC treats Malenia as an afterthought, as just some person who was once loyal to Miquella I guess, then it means that Miquella kind of just didn't like Malenia all that much, and his need to be a God superseded any familial relations... right?

Surely this piece of established, objective lore means nothing then: "And yet, the young Miquella abandoned fundamentalism, for it could do nothing to treat Malenia's accursed rot." This quote heavily implies that Miquella sought for a way to treat Malenia, and he first tried Golden Order Fundamentalism but left when it didn't work. So if his goal is to treat his sister, then he obviously cares about her.

Some could argue that he didn't want to cure her because he cared for her, but because he wanted to (insert whatever evil objective) and needed a pure Malenia to achieve it, implying his departure from the Golden Order and subsequent establishment of Unalloyed Gold was an attempt at a means to an end, the end being Godhood. Then we go back again to... why wasn't this explored in the DLC in relation to Malenia?

Radahn and Miquella's Relationship:

In the base game there isn't any tangible connection of a vow, or a promise made between Radahn and Miquella of all people. It just feels soooo out of left field and contrived. There didn't need to give us anything obvious, just give me the esoteric, vague lore drop in the base game... but they didn't (example: you find a random flower item that says: 'this young bud would never grow, it's innocent protected by the fearsome lion; a vow was made, never to be broken' ). In the Elden Ring text database there are only 2 instances where Radahn and Miquella are mentioned in the same sentence in the base game:

One is Morgott's cutscene where he's just naming the Demigods and the other is Gideon's dialogue, where he says this:

"I'd expect to find Malenia there. She who fought Radahn to a standstill. But...with the Haligtree as it is... I suppose Miquella must already be...".

Not much to go off in building even the slightest connection between them. And if there was a secret promise made between Miquella and Malenia to elevate Miquella to god-hood with a vow from Radahn, then why wasn't Malenia's part, as his twin and collaborator, explored at all?

Some Pests > Malenia:

The DLC explores Godwyn (Catacombs and Death Knights), Radahn (Freya, End Boss, Gauis), Mohg (Ansbach), Marika (literally everywhere) but not Malenia, the closest person to Miquella. Moore's Brood, the docile Children of Rot, have more characterisation and care given to them than the poster child for Elden Ring, let that sink in. There's a sizeable Scarlet Rot section but no Malenia mention. You could say that she was explored already... but so was everyone else I listed.

Conclusion:

Honestly, unlike some others, I love the difficulty of the DLC, and I love the end game bosses in base Elden Ring too. I love the Elden Ring boss design formula (multiple + delayed attacks etc I don't care that everyone else dislikes it). The visuals were 10/10, exploration was world-class. I had barely any performance issues. But I fear they missed the mark of the story this time. They disrespected their most popular character by treating her like barely an afterthought, pulled a Miquella/Radahn storyline out of their ass and went against established lore.

I hope someone makes a compelling lore video that clears everything up for me, and it all makes sense. I really don't want to hate the story because I love everything else.

[Eren Jäger]

Opprinnelig skrevet av hemorrhage911:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Eren Jäger:

There is a simple reason why Miquella doesn't want us as a lord but rather Radahn that he has manipulated so that he can no longer contradict him. Our character fights for his own goals. Be it either to serve himself, Marika or Ranni etc. No matter what ending our character chooses. It is his own decision.

Serving Miquella would mean giving up his own will and becoming his puppet.

It is shown in game that Miquella can still charm the Tarnished - it just seems to be less effective after he broke his rune.

He can do that, but he forces us to follow him. You wrote "Why doesn't Miquella ask us instead of all the effort about Radahn"

Because our character would never agree. Radahn was already dead. In my opinion, he had no choice but to fight for Miquella.

[Kim]

Opprinnelig skrevet av hemorrhage911:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Eren Jäger:

There is a simple reason why Miquella doesn't want us as a lord but rather Radahn that he has manipulated so that he can no longer contradict him. Our character fights for his own goals. Be it either to serve himself, Marika or Ranni etc. No matter what ending our character chooses. It is his own decision.

Serving Miquella would mean giving up his own will and becoming his puppet.

It is shown in game that Miquella can still charm the Tarnished - it just seems to be less effective after he broke his rune.

when the rune breaks , everyone in the lands of shadow regain free will , but Radahn.

let's face it , who is this guy Radahn anyway , just a demigod with no power of his own and clearly no way to counter his brother's power.

[Augustine]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Eren Jäger:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Augustine:

yeah I don't get the miquella-melina-torrent relationship anymore. If Miquella really wants to be a god then he shoulda just asked the living tarnished to be his lord perhaps, there is no reason to even use Radahn when we killed the dude plus Mohg ezpz?
I think I was expecting Godwyn plus like some outer-god avatar shenanigans. Fighting prime+ Radahn is cool, but fighting like an extra dimensional necro-lord with those giant squid face illithid things would have been totally new. Plus holy might have been good for once

There is a simple reason why Miquella doesn't want us as a lord but rather Radahn that he has manipulated so that he can no longer contradict him. Our character fights for his own goals. Be it either to serve himself, Marika or Ranni etc. No matter what ending our character chooses. It is his own decision.

Serving Miquella would mean giving up his own will and becoming his puppet.

Eh, if he had Radahn so under control then why did Malenia fail to even kill him. Like if he just asked that seems way higher probability than assuming we wouldn't kill Radahn+Mohg again.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Eren Jäger:

Because our character would never agree. Radahn was already dead. In my opinion, he had no choice but to fight for Miquella.

You are given multiple morally/ethically WRONG decisions to make in the game. You can assist a pedophile in drugging someone who he explicitly says he will "love" and repeatedly goes into a ton of euphemisms for what is ostensibly rape. There are absolutely reprehensible decisions the game allows, like joining a death cult against the wishes of Melina, possibly on "behalf" of her, even if she explicitly tells you "I don't want that."

Saying "our character would never agree" is kind of spurious to me. Although to me it's more that it's clearly a creative choice they made, the limitation is just arbitrary and, I understand how it's not a decision, I just think it's not interesting nor is it necessarily something they couldn't do. They chose not to do it, which is fine. It's just not because we'd "say no." It's cause the creators said "no."

[CourtesyFlush09]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Eren Jäger:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Augustine:

yeah I don't get the miquella-melina-torrent relationship anymore. If Miquella really wants to be a god then he shoulda just asked the living tarnished to be his lord perhaps, there is no reason to even use Radahn when we killed the dude plus Mohg ezpz?
I think I was expecting Godwyn plus like some outer-god avatar shenanigans. Fighting prime+ Radahn is cool, but fighting like an extra dimensional necro-lord with those giant squid face illithid things would have been totally new. Plus holy might have been good for once

There is a simple reason why Miquella doesn't want us as a lord but rather Radahn that he has manipulated so that he can no longer contradict him. Our character fights for his own goals. Be it either to serve himself, Marika or Ranni etc. No matter what ending our character chooses. It is his own decision.

Serving Miquella would mean giving up his own will and becoming his puppet.

Yeah this is pretty clearly alluded to in the Light of Miquella description:

"Miquella sought to accept all that was and would be, but found one that refused to be embraced. No wonder, as one god, and one king consort, is all the world needs."

The "one that refused" is probably us, the player.

[Sonnenbank]

yeha Radahn who was all-in on defending the golden Order didnt agree either ... thats why he had to die before Miquella could use him.

Some people say Radahn wanted to be with Miquella all along but that doesnt make sense imo.

Why did Miquella send Malenia to kill him ?
Why did Radahn defend the Golden Order with all his power against the forces of the Moon
Why would Radahn defend Golden Order vs Ranni but agree to abandon it for Miquella ?

I think its much much more logical that Radahn needed to die in order for Miquella to have any power over him

[Persona Au Gratin]

It's the Faith based version of Doll/Puppet making.

[hemorrhage911]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Eren Jäger:

Opprinnelig skrevet av hemorrhage911:

It is shown in game that Miquella can still charm the Tarnished - it just seems to be less effective after he broke his rune.

He can do that, but he forces us to follow him. You wrote "Why doesn't Miquella ask us instead of all the effort about Radahn"

Because our character would never agree. Radahn was already dead. In my opinion, he had no choice but to fight for Miquella.

First off, I didn't write that. Secondly, my point was he can charm the player - gameplay wise it doesn't impact the story, but it shows directly being embraced (yuck) by Miquella charms you. Thus you are under his spell. In game this has gameplay (minor) impact.

But the tarnished will do whatever the player wants him/her to do. There are still people who willingly reignite the flame in Dark Souls 1 or do the multitude of BS endings in Dark Souls 3.

[Augustine]

this direction makes miquella even worse cause it sounds like he just wants to mind control everyone into eternal bliss tsukiyomi style, might as well suck their chakra while hes at it.

[Kyutaru]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Augustine:

this direction makes miquella even worse cause it sounds like he just wants to mind control everyone into eternal bliss tsukiyomi style, might as well suck their chakra while hes at it.

Oh, trust me, sucking off the world is phase 2 of the plan.

[Eren Jäger]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Augustine:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Eren Jäger:

There is a simple reason why Miquella doesn't want us as a lord but rather Radahn that he has manipulated so that he can no longer contradict him. Our character fights for his own goals. Be it either to serve himself, Marika or Ranni etc. No matter what ending our character chooses. It is his own decision.

Serving Miquella would mean giving up his own will and becoming his puppet.

Eh, if he had Radahn so under control then why did Malenia fail to even kill him. Like if he just asked that seems way higher probability than assuming we wouldn't kill Radahn+Mohg again.

He had Radahn under control after his death. I can't answer why the manipulation didn't work before. Since Radahn was always portrayed as someone very special, I assume that he was one of the few who could withstand Miquella's manipulations as long as he was alive.

[Paulo Ramos]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Eren Jäger:

Opprinnelig skrevet av hemorrhage911:

It is shown in game that Miquella can still charm the Tarnished - it just seems to be less effective after he broke his rune.

He can do that, but he forces us to follow him. You wrote "Why doesn't Miquella ask us instead of all the effort about Radahn"

Because our character would never agree. Radahn was already dead. In my opinion, he had no choice but to fight for Miquella.

The Tarnished is the lord of the golden order but Miquella wants to be a god to create a new order. Miquella's tree was his first attempt to create a new order but it didn't work. Even Marika was sad because the haligtree failled to replace the erdtree.

[An Irate Walrus]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Paulo Ramos:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Eren Jäger:

He can do that, but he forces us to follow him. You wrote "Why doesn't Miquella ask us instead of all the effort about Radahn"

Because our character would never agree. Radahn was already dead. In my opinion, he had no choice but to fight for Miquella.

The Tarnished is the lord of the golden order but Miquella wants to be a god to create a new order. Miquella's tree was his first attempt to create a new order but it didn't work. Even Marika was sad because the haligtree failled to replace the erdtree.

I'd argue the Tarnished is the only critter capable of becoming a Lord--not specifically of the Golden Order (though they can choose that)--but just in general. Given that we can side with Ranni, gut the GO's primary method of recycling believers by adding the rune of death to the ER, or even burn it all, our character (beyond just having main character syndrome like mad) is literally the only person in the game apart from Godfrey who can handle that mantle of power.

[Eren Jäger]

Opprinnelig skrevet av An Irate Walrus:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Paulo Ramos:

The Tarnished is the lord of the golden order but Miquella wants to be a god to create a new order. Miquella's tree was his first attempt to create a new order but it didn't work. Even Marika was sad because the haligtree failled to replace the erdtree.

I'd argue the Tarnished is the only critter capable of becoming a Lord--not specifically of the Golden Order (though they can choose that)--but just in general. Given that we can side with Ranni, gut the GO's primary method of recycling believers by adding the rune of death to the ER, or even burn it all, our character (beyond just having main character syndrome like mad) is literally the only person in the game apart from Godfrey who can handle that mantle of power.

It's just a question of which ending is canon and which isn't.

If you assume that the restoration of the golden order is the classic ending and therefore canon, then I believe that we were chosen by Marika at the beginning of the game to save the The Lands Between. I would argue that it is no coincidence that Melina (Marika's daughter) finds us and leads us through The Lands Between.

[rhoenix]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Eren Jäger:

It's just a question of which ending is canon and which isn't.

If you assume that the restoration of the golden order is the classic ending and therefore canon, then I believe that we were chosen by Marika at the beginning of the game to save the The Lands Between . I would argue that it is no coincidence that Melina (Marika's daughter) finds us and leads us through The Lands Between.

Others can (and likely will) disagree with me on this, but - the more times I've played Elden Ring, the more I've begun to suspect that the player character, that specific Tarnished, is Marika's final chess move against the Greater Will.

I think this is especially true given the influences at hand that can suggest that the Tarnished would try to re-activate (or recreate) the Golden Order she set in place, but there are other influences that suggest the Golden Order could be put to bed forever.

Yes, from her view this opens the door to the Frenzied Flame gaining prominence, and that to Marika would be a worst-case outcome. But given the way the possible outcomes all work out, even that worst case would still be a win for her, since all her works (and mistakes) would therefore be turned to ash. The same would be true for Ranni's outcome, as there Marika's decisions and outcomes would just become past history, made irrelevant in the current circumstances.

There are many darts I can throw at her decision-making and the headspaces she made those decisions from, but I do respect Marika's chess moves.