Your arguments against the game being "too hard" are nonsense.

[TheRedBaron]

With max scadutree fragments, Greatshield talisman, Bull goat or verdigris armor, golden vow, and the damage negation physic tear, you still get 2 tapped by the last 4 main bosses in the game.

It's not exploration, it's not a lack of 'getting good'. It's simply overtuned bosses. The final boss, who I won't spoil for those who haven't played it, is atrociously too hard. I've beaten him 3 times now, twice myself and once in a friends game. It's a bad fight. (rushes you right out the gate 9/10 times, extremely little room for punish between his attacks. Comet at the end is designed in a way that makes it nearly impossible to learn for most people. seriously, it just hits and the first tick of damage is delayed from the animation hit for some reason... And he also has 40k hp.)

Only 30% of the player base had even beat Mohg before the dlc released, btw. The number of people who beat The final boss is for sure lower, I would guess less than 10% of players, probably less than that. It's fine to design a difficult game, and I love Elden ring, and all the souls games for that reason. But these fights took it too far. The entire point of the souls games is to present a challenge that players can OVERCOME. If 99% of players can't, you failed.

It doesn't take a genius to understand that.

[surreptitious]

Originally posted by surreptitious:

Nobody complains when difficulty is fun.
Its NOT fun , it is just annoying ....

16 attacks from a normal mob in 11 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh_DXMlmpD0

The game is a dodge fest.
Uninspired tracking on everything, ridiculous dodging, not hard BORING and repetitive.
Hey go on the get gud scavenger hunt for the McGuffin fragments.

Not hard.... not worth playing, im forcing it right now to finish and not do again.

The mob in that video crosses the entire room doing a non stop attack sequence and moving forward tracking the opponent ... lame

[Zefar]

The DLC was so hard it even weeded out the "Let me solo her" guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsn2dDyfVUA

A person who without a doubt has more skill than ANY of the people who say "Git Gud" on the forum.


I can safely say though that the absolute worst boss in all of Dark souls/ Elden ring belongs to Commander Gaius.
He can solo all bosses himself most likely.

[Rhaegar]

Originally posted by Dam Stark:

All of it's is ultimately subjective. git gud or play another game. It's the literal final boss.

From Soft are the ones who need to git gud though. So many customers being unhappy clearly shows that they didn't try hard enough.

They should learn how to design better games or stop making them. There's a way to make everybody happy, and they haven't found it yet because of their own laziness.

People should stop defending them and embrace the git gud mentality. Stop shielding From Soft and force them to improve by making them feel like failures!

[Krazy Wallet]

Originally posted by Zefar:

The DLC was so hard it even weeded out the "Let me solo her" guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsn2dDyfVUA

A person who without a doubt has more skill than ANY of the people who say "Git Gud" on the forum.


I can safely say though that the absolute worst boss in all of Dark souls/ Elden ring belongs to Commander Gaius.
He can solo all bosses himself most likely.

That's a 2 hour video. Care to reference what part you want us to look at? He ended stream saying he was going to come back and learn Radahn. Not like he said he was done or not going to finish the DLC.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:

it's 100% true, and never once did I "move the goalposts"

Yes, you 100% did. You started out claiming a thing, I countered that thing, then you accused me of contradicting myself by stating I said something I never said. I'm actually providing QUOTES from YOU detailing your arguments. You are only strawmanning mine and attacking statements that were never made by me, which is really a coward's position.

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:

Yes, this. You shouldn't HAVE to do the bloodfiend arm strat, or the madness one shot, or the shield build in order to win.

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:

With max scadutree fragments, Greatshield talisman, Bull goat or verdigris armor, golden vow, and the damage negation physic tear, you still get 2 tapped by the last 4 main bosses in the game.

These are your arguments, and the ones that I addressed. It's your own fault for realizing how weak they were and moving the goalposts to include assumptions you hadn't stated.

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:

With the buff to the scadutree fragments, at 20 you get just enough defense to live 3 unblocked hits now, which is a welcome change

Unbuffed perhaps. But the game has Golden Braid, Holyproof Pickled Liver, Lord's Divine Fortification, Tree Sentinel Armor, AND all the things you mentioned to deal with holy damage. As far as Physical goes, between the Tree Sent's beefy stats and Crab Meat and Greatshield and Golden Vow, even the physical damage is nothing too alarming. You claimed you can't survive 3 unblocked hits. I've survived his ENTIRE TRIPLE SLASH COMBO. You seem to be woefully unaware of what options exist in the game to boost your defenses and how effective consumables are to boss attempts. It's not even hard to get them, you can buy a stack of 99 crab meats for less than it costs to upgrade a new weapon.

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:

Of course in p2 of the final boss that no longer matters because of the extra holy damage applied to the hits.

Which is why I brought Holy resistance buffs. Duh.

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:

The examples I gave were the extreme examples of the builds, true. But I never said they were the only pure examples that worked. the layered buff builds, bleed builds, or using hp-scaling spells are 95% of the time what players are using if they don't have a shield.

So you want to what, only use a Guts build? Read what I said about self-inflicted handicaps. You ask for a challenge and then are surprised when you're given a challenge.

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:

And the minority that beats the boss without that are hardly the standard the boss should be set too.

Having the intelligence to optimize your build for battle is most certainly the standard the boss should be set to. This is a bloody RPG. Using a fire weapon against a fire boss should not be the standard the game is balanced against. Stupid builds will suffer more than smart ones, and that's okay. You want to fight Radahn in melee combat without a shield and using a slow weapon against his lightspeed dashes? Then do it, but don't expect it to be easy or complain that it's not. You want to beat him without using buff consumables or stacked resistances? Then do it, but don't whine that he three hits you.

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:

The game SHOULD NOT be balanced around the top 5%.

I'm a 40-year-old gamer with carpal tunnel who was hit maybe 50 times by Radahn during that fight. I'm hardly the 5%. You seem to think I require a bleed weapon or black fireballs to beat him, but my normal main weapon's ash of war deals over 4000 dmg per hit to him on its own. I only used those because I heard he was tanky. I have since stopped using them.

[BKo]

Originally posted by Zefar:

The DLC was so hard it even weeded out the "Let me solo her" guy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qsn2dDyfVUA

A person who without a doubt has more skill than ANY of the people who say "Git Gud" on the forum.


I can safely say though that the absolute worst boss in all of Dark souls/ Elden ring belongs to Commander Gaius.
He can solo all bosses himself most likely.

Do you think these people are winning first try or something? 2 hours with that build he's using is nothing, probably gonna be many more before he fully has him down.

[Haru]

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:

Originally posted by Haru:

Eh. I'd argue that he's the last boss we're ever going to get out of this game, so it makes sense that he stands above the hardest boss from the base game on a technical level. I genuinely don't think it matters how many people manage to kill a boss. LOTS OF GAMES have achievements with very low completion rates. They're there for people that want to surmount those contests and challenges. Paying for the game does not equate to being able to finish the game, or contend with specific challenges in the game.

I'd argue that you tortured yourself out of a sense of sunken cost fallacy, forcing yourself through an experience you found fundamentally un-fun on every level. I very nearly did the same thing, until I found something that worked for me that I found enjoyable. If you can't find that joy, you do not have to force yourself to persevere.

Still haven't finished Sekiro and beaten Isshin. Still haven't killed genocide route Sans.

Do they need nerfing? No.

They're just not challenges I am up for at this time, and I don't find butting my head against a brick wall to be a good use of my time.

You keep bringing up Isshin and now undertale as if they are comperable in any way. Sekiro isn't an rpg, it's an action game centered around pure skill, and the difficulty of sans is from his pure skill minigame you play during his fight.

elden ring is a souls game through and through. You are not suppose to overcome every challenge based purely on skill, most of the time its player power that gets you through, and that comes in the form of rpg elements the game has included. If it was intended that you not use those systems to beat the game they wouldn't have been included. And for 99% of the bosses in Elden Ring, this holds true. But the last fights of the DLC throw RPG systems out of the window, now they are merely an afterthought because you must use cookie cutter builds to win.

And before you respond again that you used a faith build, I guarantee you used all of the meta talismans, gear, and weapons/catalysts for it. There didn't used to be a "meta" in souls games. THAT'S THE ISSUE.

The comparison lies within the difficulty of the challenge. i;e: not a braindead button mashing fest. You play well or you fail. If you are having fun contesting that challenge, that's the main thing. If you're not having fun, you should not force yourself to continue, or it invalidates the point of the activity.

Neither of us gets to decide how much 'skill' or 'cheese' or 'whatever' is needed to beat a 'Souls' game. Those are not written in stone. The majority of utilisation of player power revolves around the autonomy and free thinking of the player.

The DLC fights do not throw RPG systems out of the window. You do not need cookie cutter builds to win. This is all the same nonsense that was spouted about every end game boss in Elden Ring base game.

There didn't used to be a meta in Souls games? I think you'll find that it's called magic. Bleeds were also severely OP in many of the games. Gwyn could be parried to death.

For the final fight, I realised that I was not going to do much damage to Redahn with direct holy damage, so not only did I decide to amp up my holy damage, but I decided that the best way to deal with a chunk of his attacks while mitigating that damage was to parry using one of my medium shields.

My talismans were: whatever the holy scorpion thing is called, the golden braid, the crit healing talisman and the crit damage talisman.

I constantly had my godskin rapier blessed with a holy enchantment from sacred blade that I also used to punish Redahn during his down time.

Buffs included protection of the Erdtree and Golden Vow. I had a supply of exalted meat, holy pickled liver, etc, to help a little more.

My brass shield had a sacred art of war to increase holy resistance.

I'm fighting a god, I come prepared.

At any point, I could have decided to finger print shield him to death with a poky weapon, gone with an exploitation of his debuff related weaknesses, opted for bleed bursts instead of parry-crits, or a bunch of other builds that are perfectly viable.

Pretending that only a couple of builds can surmount him is wild.

[Zefar]

Originally posted by Krazy Wallet:

That's a 2 hour video. Care to reference what part you want us to look at? He ended stream saying he was going to come back and learn Radahn. Not like he said he was done or not going to finish the DLC.

It's the fact that even the most skilled player in the base game struggles with the DLC boss or bosses.

They ramped up the difficulty a lot with this DLC. A bit too much in some place.

[Krazy Wallet]

Originally posted by Zefar:

Originally posted by Krazy Wallet:

That's a 2 hour video. Care to reference what part you want us to look at? He ended stream saying he was going to come back and learn Radahn. Not like he said he was done or not going to finish the DLC.

It's the fact that even the most skilled player in the base game struggles with the DLC boss or bosses.

They ramped up the difficulty a lot with this DLC. A bit too much in some place.

Do you think these people are parry gods as soon as they walk through the fog wall? Yes, they are highly skilled players but even they need to practice. Native skill is one thing, but the masters of these games have an uncanny ability to learn patterns, control their impulses, and exploit opportunities. That comes with practice and time. Come back in a month and see how Let Me Solo Her is doing against Radahn.

I'm also willing to wager that Radahn would have fallen much, much faster if he wasn't gimping himself. He's not using summons which is a huge part of the game. I'm fine with that, I don't use them either. I also understand that my pain and suffering against Radahn is my own doing for not using those resources.

[Supa]

2 tapped?

When I have vow I take like this much dmg. https://i.imgur.com/llhZEaI.png

And I don't have bull armor or all fragments.

[Kyutaru]

Originally posted by Zefar:

Originally posted by Krazy Wallet:

That's a 2 hour video. Care to reference what part you want us to look at? He ended stream saying he was going to come back and learn Radahn. Not like he said he was done or not going to finish the DLC.

It's the fact that even the most skilled player in the base game struggles with the DLC boss or bosses.

They ramped up the difficulty a lot with this DLC. A bit too much in some place.

You don't know the story of Let Me Solo Her, do you?

He sucked Malenia. He was trash at her fight and bodied by her constantly. That's what PROMPTED him to learn her over the course of countless attempts. In the process, he mastered the fight and went on to help others do it by soloing her. He got so good at dodging her attacks that he just wasn't getting hit anymore by them, so he didn't need help.

He lost to Malenia 242 times before he helped others beat her. Hell, I didn't even need that many attempts myself, guess I'm just better?

https://screenrant.com/elden-ring-solo-summon-malenia-lost-242-times/

This most skilled player started out the same everyone else does. A scrub. A noob.

He got good.

He'll do the same with Radahn.

[mpcgannon]

Factually wrong. I don't use half that ♥♥♥♥ because

Fashion > Numbers

and the only one shot is gravity. Only two shot is gravity on torrent.

[Krazy Wallet]

Originally posted by mpcgannon:

Factually wrong. I don't use half that ♥♥♥♥ because

Fashion > Numbers

and the only one shot is gravity. Only two shot is gravity on torrent.

I still haven't figured out how to defeat gravity. The final boss.....

[Naewyng]

Originally posted by Taddy Mason:

Originally posted by TheRedBaron:

Yes, this. You shouldn't HAVE to do the bloodfiend arm strat, or the madness one shot, or the shield build in order to win.

But currently you do, and that's not fun.

Every other boss in every other souls game was killable by every build. They lost sight of that.

not only the devs, but it seems either much of the player base lost sight of that as well cause they're willing to defend the DLC forcing everyone into very limited builds, or the base game brought in a bunch of new people who think a role playing game should have very limited builds that everyone should have to follow in order to have any chance of beating it. the amount of people who think it's acceptable role playing game design to reduce every build and playstyle's advice for overcoming any challenge in the DLC is: "find more scadutree fragments" is a little surprising.

i remember the days of learning which boss and/or enemies are weak or resistant to what type of damage and what weapons and playstyles worked best for which bosses, enemies, and locations. now the more/most important thing just seems to be how many of those fragments you found and used. it's discouraging exploration. what am i going to find out in the DLC map to help me anywhere near as much as just collecting more fragments? no matter the challenge, build, or playstyle, it's a perfect match and upgrade. so i don't need to go look for any new weapons, spells, or try out different builds or playstyles to overcome my current challenge. no need to grind some more levels and get a little stronger that way, either. just find more fragments. it's a shortcut and universal solution that leads to everything you might need or want with any challenge you're on.

They defend it because of a psychological phenomenon called "sunken cost fallacy".

They already put in a lot of effort to get good at it, and it would shatter their worldview if the bosses they lost countless hours to perfect WEREN'T as good as they want to think they were.

[John Titor]

Originally posted by Krazy Wallet:

Originally posted by mpcgannon:

Factually wrong. I don't use half that ♥♥♥♥ because

Fashion > Numbers

and the only one shot is gravity. Only two shot is gravity on torrent.

I still haven't figured out how to defeat gravity. The final boss.....

Leonard would like to have a word with you.