Is it just me or are the bosses just not fun?

[MorinehtarTheBlue]

I've mulling over this question as Messmer continues to impale me over and over again, and I've come to the conclusion that I don't think I've actually had a fun experience with the bosses in this DLC. I like the DLC overall, the world aesthetic is good, the level design is brilliant and I like what I've seen so far of the new lore.

The bosses though just feel... like work? I don't quite know how to put it into words, but they seem designed to be hard in the most irritating way possible. I have not yet faced a boss that wasn't a stamina blender, either slashing away with a weapon barely fast enough for the eye to follow or charging around the room with massive hitboxes sending my camera into hysterics.

The DLC appears to double down on the worst aspects of the late game boss design of the base game, lots of AoE attacks, grabs that do massive amounts of damage, overly chunky boss healthbars, barely any downtime between attacks etc etc. It leads to fights that feel less like a challenge and more like a chore, I don't *want* to best Messmer the way i did Radhan or Godfrey, I more just want to get past him to continue playing the parts of the DLC I actually enjoy.

It especially doesn't help that From apparently dug out the unreleased Sekiro DLC notes as the basis for this DLC, as every man sized boss now zips around the arena like lady butterfly and fights devolve into streams of flashing colours, random damage and FPS drops. I like Sekiro and really enjoyed playing it, but it worked because it was an action game with specific mechanics based around deflection and posture.

That game design here upends any pretence ER had of being an RPG, as you're basically screwed unless you play the game the way the boss designer intended... even though that's not the point of an RPG and wasn't an issue in the base game until very very late the day.

As you can probably tell from the comment I'm disappointed in the DLC, and hope From can learn from the reaction to SoE when designing future games. I am though genuinely interested in other people's experiences in SoE, do you agree with me about the bosses or did you find them challenging in genuinely interesting ways?

[Boralf]

İlk olarak Porcelain tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Stripey tarafından gönderildi:

I actually found OoK much more manageable than Radahn. Probably due to the Hunter's much more nimble movement.

To me, the fact that Radahn telegraphs his moves makes it easier to pretty much anticipate what will happen. Back in the day, the PS4 was running at 30 frames per second on a 60Hz, Orphan of Kos's maneuvers were incredibly difficult to avoid and he remained erratic and wild. Orphan's animation cancels and unpredictable nature was a ticking time bomb in the beginning. Tech has changed since then. I'm sure it would be much tougher to run Radahn at 30 frames per second at 60Hz, I'm sure the developers took that into consideration when designing him though.

It's funny you say this, because a lot of people have performance problems with the second phase of Radahn.

[Richie Jerimovich]

İlk olarak Boralf tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Porcelain tarafından gönderildi:

To me, the fact that Radahn telegraphs his moves makes it easier to pretty much anticipate what will happen. Back in the day, the PS4 was running at 30 frames per second on a 60Hz, Orphan of Kos's maneuvers were incredibly difficult to avoid and he remained erratic and wild. Orphan's animation cancels and unpredictable nature was a ticking time bomb in the beginning. Tech has changed since then. I'm sure it would be much tougher to run Radahn at 30 frames per second at 60Hz, I'm sure the developers took that into consideration when designing him though.

It's funny you say this, because a lot of people have performance problems with the second phase of Radahn.

I didn't have any issues running the game on low graphics, if I turned on ray tracing yeah my pc lagged. Even still, I previously stated that running Radahn on 30fps with a 60hz monitor would be way harder than what we currently have.

[Punkin Spice]

İlk olarak Travis Touchdown tarafından gönderildi:

There's been a lot of talk about how difficult fights are and if the difficulty mechanics are even fun to engage with, but something I think goes underappreciated with regards to fun factor for bosses is the build up to them and some kind of personal investment. Bayle, Metyr, and Midra are some of the best bosses in the DLC for me because they were built up to in various ways.

Bayle has some NPCs talk about him, a walk up a steep mountain with a bunch of dragons, and then an incredible NPC summon to enhance the fight.

Metyr has the whole ruins questline where you move through some of the most surreal environments in the entire game, narrative importance for the base game's story, and it being so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ weird in appearance.

Midra has the whole Abyssal Woods as mood piece with frenzied wildlife until you get to his manse, you see him off in the distance in his suffering room while moving through the little legacy dungeon, and then there's a little pre-encounter before the fight.

If you're going to make your bosses really difficult, at least make it feel important to fight them by building up to them correctly. Rellana is the biggest offender for me. No narrative investment in beating these characters means they feel a lot like work or pages of a book stuck together. I'm going through the motions to move past this flat arena boxed in room and get back to exploring and seeing cool things.

I felt this a bit too. In the base game so many of the bosses in the last leg of the game are people you've been hearing about, reading about, or in a particular case interacting with the entire time. The build up is really good. And sure, the base game has more time to work with. No doubt. But a lot of the DLC bosses just kinda poof in out of nowhere and it gives me a lot less.. idk.. "wow" factor I guess.

[MorinehtarTheBlue]

İlk olarak Porcelain tarafından gönderildi:

Anyone who complains about this DLC has never fought against Orphan of Kos with his literally one shot moves

I've beaten Orphan of Kos, plus pretty much any other famously hard Souls boss you'd care to name. I really liked OoK, but that's partly because bloodbourne is fundamentally an action game with some RPG elements, and the combat is based around those limitations.

OoK wouldn't work in ER because he'd be next to impossible for a caster build to beat, because ER is an RPG and therefore bosses need to be beatable by a variety of builds. Honestly From obviously drawing influence from BB and Sekiro is part of what makes the bosses in SoE a problem, if this was Sekiro 2 with a set character and deflections It would be fine, but its not and so it becomes an issue

[MorinehtarTheBlue]

İlk olarak Punkin Spice tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Travis Touchdown tarafından gönderildi:

There's been a lot of talk about how difficult fights are and if the difficulty mechanics are even fun to engage with, but something I think goes underappreciated with regards to fun factor for bosses is the build up to them and some kind of personal investment. Bayle, Metyr, and Midra are some of the best bosses in the DLC for me because they were built up to in various ways.

Bayle has some NPCs talk about him, a walk up a steep mountain with a bunch of dragons, and then an incredible NPC summon to enhance the fight.

Metyr has the whole ruins questline where you move through some of the most surreal environments in the entire game, narrative importance for the base game's story, and it being so ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ weird in appearance.

Midra has the whole Abyssal Woods as mood piece with frenzied wildlife until you get to his manse, you see him off in the distance in his suffering room while moving through the little legacy dungeon, and then there's a little pre-encounter before the fight.

If you're going to make your bosses really difficult, at least make it feel important to fight them by building up to them correctly. Rellana is the biggest offender for me. No narrative investment in beating these characters means they feel a lot like work or pages of a book stuck together. I'm going through the motions to move past this flat arena boxed in room and get back to exploring and seeing cool things.

I felt this a bit too. In the base game so many of the bosses in the last leg of the game are people you've been hearing about, reading about, or in a particular case interacting with the entire time. The build up is really good. And sure, the base game has more time to work with. No doubt. But a lot of the DLC bosses just kinda poof in out of nowhere and it gives me a lot less.. idk.. "wow" factor I guess.

Having just reached the final boss I feel this very hard, there's no buildup or anything just 'here he is'

it also doesn't help that it makes no sense that its him and not one of the other two much more obvious choices based on the existing lore, but oh well I can already tell my initial enthusiasm for the new lore and story won't last.

[Persona Au Gratin]

İlk olarak MorinehtarTheBlue tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Porcelain tarafından gönderildi:

Anyone who complains about this DLC has never fought against Orphan of Kos with his literally one shot moves

I've beaten Orphan of Kos,

Echoing this, a friend of mine who I got into Bloodborne absolutely cannot stand Elden Ring. Using Orphan of Kos as some kind of litmus for how people "don't appreciate what they have" is just really... delusional/weird. You fight Orphan of Kos is a GIGANTIC arena where he can control the space, but he's a fairly modest sized foe by comparison and the enemy behavior in Bloodborne doesn't have suckerpunch tells where you have to discover or create odd feeling rhythms during boss recovery to account for the possibility of retaliation.

Like, I never carried a bunch of throwing daggers to see if bosses will input read and extend their offense in Bloodborne. I can't say much for the anecdote for my friend, but just my experience alone, Elden Ring makes me yearn for the relative simplicity of a system that has a lot more aggression available to the player with a relatively straight forward dodge then retaliate design.

Like "this boss from this relatively less convoluted enemy behavior design is gonna make you cry." Delusional. I don't remember having a negative, eyerolling reaction to the way Orphan of Kos behaves as an enemy lmfao.

[Dr.Acula]

İlk olarak Porcelain tarafından gönderildi:

Anyone who complains about this DLC has never fought against Orphan of Kos with his literally one shot moves

Responding to critcism about boss design in one game with comparison to a potentially bad boss in another game which mechanically is different btw. is not really a sensible approach to win someone over.

Regarding the general statement from the op:
Yes they do feel like work and many of them are not enjoyable. But you have those that love fights like Malenia and Maliketh and will will defend these kind of boss designs.

Even before the release of the DLC I was worried they'd make more bosses like that and posted in this forum about that as well. There are cool boss design in the Elden Ring main game. Unfortunately those weren't used to influence the DLC.

I guess the humanoid bosses that are somewhat similar to PVP fights are still somewhat fun (the little side bosses like the dancer).

[FlyingM]

I think the DLC bosses are too cinematic. Like many modern games overall: Maybe cool to look at, nice visual effects... but no good gameplay.
Not all of them - but the vast majority. Thinking about this makes me nostalgic for good old Dark Souls. You encounter a boss and the game is like "There you go. Now beat that thing."
Nowadays it's all like:
"WOAH, FANCY FLASHY TRANSFORMATION FOLLOWED BY A 10 HIT COMBO WHICH MAKES THE WHOLE SCREEN FLASH A MILLION TIMES! THEN EVERYTHING IS BURNING AND YOU LOOK REALLY COOL WHEN YOU DODGE IT ALL! NOW HIT THE BOSS! NOW THE SAME THING AGAIN! WOOAH! HAVING FUN ALREADY?!?"

[FlyingM]

İlk olarak Aerieanei tarafından gönderildi:

I wish there was more cinematics. Considering they cut out the new ending and cut out several cutscenes that were in the gameplay trailer 4 months ago. Completely removing the choice to side with Miquella was dumb.

I mean, cutscenes are fine. But the bosses mostly feel like they were programmed to look cool und put on a crazy lightshow with their constant explosions, special effects and infinite combos.

[Dr.Acula]

İlk olarak Aerieanei tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak _FlyingM_ tarafından gönderildi:

I think the DLC bosses are too cinematic. Like many modern games overall: Maybe cool to look at, nice visual effects... but no good gameplay.
Not all of them - but the vast majority. Thinking about this makes me nostalgic for good old Dark Souls. You encounter a boss and the game is like "There you go. Now beat that thing."
Nowadays it's all like:
"WOAH, FANCY FLASHY TRANSFORMATION FOLLOWED BY A 10 HIT COMBO WHICH MAKES THE WHOLE SCREEN FLASH A MILLION TIMES! THEN EVERYTHING IS BURNING AND YOU LOOK REALLY COOL WHEN YOU DODGE IT ALL! NOW HIT THE BOSS! NOW THE SAME THING AGAIN! WOOAH! HAVING FUN ALREADY?!?"

I wish there was more cinematics. Considering they cut out the new ending and cut out several cutscenes that were in the gameplay trailer 4 months ago. Completely removing the choice to side with Miquella was dumb.

I think you misunderstand the statement. Him mentioning the fights being "cinematic" means there is to much going on during the fight with lots of effects (particles, fire and so on). It's not about cut scenes.

It means the way the bosses move during a fight looks cool and visually impressive. However it is a nightmare to actual deal with these movements and effects on a gameplay level. For example Messmer (and Rellana too btw.) have a move where they throw a spell into your direction and combine it with other actions. Messmer uses a fireball. While that fireball is still flying into your direction somewhat obstructing the screen he also jumps into your direction with a actual physical attack. If you go purely by what you see it is very difficult to dodge that move because you simply can't see it as it is disguised by the fireball. Rellana does the same thing with a couple of magic swords she casts in front of her and throws at you right away and while the swords are still flying she jumps after them attacking you.

It's visually cool looking but also means you have to do blind moves predicting what the enemy might be doing.

The whole aspect of which bosses have cut scenes and what is in those cut scenes is a whole different discussion.

[Casul Gamer]

İlk olarak _FlyingM_ tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Aerieanei tarafından gönderildi:

I wish there was more cinematics. Considering they cut out the new ending and cut out several cutscenes that were in the gameplay trailer 4 months ago. Completely removing the choice to side with Miquella was dumb.

I mean, cutscenes are fine. But the bosses mostly feel like they were programmed to look cool und put on a crazy lightshow with their constant explosions, special effects and infinite combos.

Always has been...People say they love Radahn or Renalla, but the actual fights are mid. It's all about the spectacle in Elden Ring. Dark Souls 2 bosses are very bland, but the actual fights are more enjoyable and feel more fair than most of Elden Ring bosses.

[Casul Gamer]

İlk olarak Aerieanei tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Casul Gamer tarafından gönderildi:

Always has been...People say they love Radahn or Renalla, but the actual fights are mid. It's all about the spectacle in Elden Ring. Dark Souls 2 bosses are very bland, but the actual fights are more enjoyable and feel more fair than most of Elden Ring bosses.

I thought Looking Glass Knight was cool. It's fun going in there with your summons and then Looking Glass Knight whips out his summons. The music and the lightning with Rain was also fun for me. It just matched so well. It felt like a climatic fight a culmination of being able to reach Drangleic Castle.

Yeah, I'm not saying all were bad. Pursuer is another very epic boss from DS2. My point was just that they didn't have the special Miyazaki sauce that everyone seems to like, but from the gameplay perspective they were quite good. Maybe too easy for some people, but I just don't have the reflexes for the newer Souls games.

[Dr.Acula]

İlk olarak Casul Gamer tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak _FlyingM_ tarafından gönderildi:

I mean, cutscenes are fine. But the bosses mostly feel like they were programmed to look cool und put on a crazy lightshow with their constant explosions, special effects and infinite combos.

Always has been...People say they love Radahn or Renalla, but the actual fights are mid. It's all about the spectacle in Elden Ring. Dark Souls 2 bosses are very bland, but the actual fights are more enjoyable and feel more fair than most of Elden Ring bosses.

Fume Knight in DS2 is considered one of the most difficult bosses in the souls games. That boss has not cut scene and no actual flashy moves. It's a simple straight forward fight but extremely challening due to the requirement of having to manage your stamina.

And I think Fume Knight (which took me hourse to kill btw.) is more impressive and enjoyable than fights like Malenia, Rellana or Consort Radahn.

[Mehermagerk]

İlk olarak Porcelain tarafından gönderildi:

Anyone who complains about this DLC has never fought against Orphan of Kos with his literally one shot moves

Orphan of Kos is not a hard boss has many openings does not one shot you need to absolutely suck at parrying to think hes a hard boss I have done no death runs of Bloodborne it's my favorite Fromsoft title.

The only problem with this DLC is the boss damage its insane unless you have 60 vig and all scadu blessings which makes the game feel like ♥♥♥♥ unless you have those things.

[Peggasaurus Rex]

I can't say whether they are or aren't fun because whether or not the frustration is too much is up to you, but the dlc bosses do something the base game bosses don't. At least not to the same extent. They are designed in a way to sort of stonewall players in needing to play specific ways. Like Rellana wanted you to be parrying or guard countering. The juiced up hp bars and damage from bosses turned exploration that was usually mostly optional into a necessity if you didn't want to either level to 300 or spend twice as long in a battle of attrition against a boss.

Respeccing to a new build is what a lot of players need to do, but the limiter on your respeccs means you are actively punished for experimenting or trying something new. Every time you respecc, you have one shot less at getting it right or that's one less chance in the future for if you find a weapon or new build you'd rather use.

Several of these bosses do have serious visibility issues because they were designed as spectacles first and are equipped with attacks you can't actually dodge roll through because they have a second hitbox immediately behind them that will catch you. Golden Hippo is a nightmare for the camera in a boss room too small for its fight because its charges will always put it up against the wall, and some of its attacks will then clip its head into the wall so you can't see the attack happening. Dancing Lion's moving tornado isn't dodgable and only avoidable by being far far away from the boss, and the erratic movements and constant raising of the head can be a nightmare for the camera. It has a few attacks that will obscure your vision of the boss so you can't see what it's doing. The final boss has it's own goddawful set of problems, visibility chief among them. Bayle needed more than the single lock on spot. He moves too much for it to work without it.

I think a lot of people who went into the dlc and weren't having fun aren't being treated particularly fairly by the community. The dlc is ultimately a whole different beast from the base game that requires something else from you entirely. And because it's a dlc rather than a separate game, players can't be faulted for going in and just expecting more of what they already had in the base game and ones that weren't having fun can't even just refund it since it is a DLC. It's not as simple as "not a game for me" in this case because it was meant to be an extension of a pre-existing game. There's too many people taking it as a personal insult when someone isn't liking the game they like, or feeling like they can't be validated for beating a boss if they have to accept the boss wasn't designed fairly.

If you can, I would recommend experimenting with a different build and trying some of the other tools that are there. The spontaneous guard physik tear can help a lot for bosses where dodging isn't an option. They might give you an easier time so that you can enjoy the DLC more. I had a very frustrating experience with the first few of them, then took the time to adjust my build to better fit a different playstyle and it helped a lot. If you're okay with co-op, you can try to learn to be a bit more defensive in your play and summon a cooperator to help (not all bosses are good for that. Some of them, summons just make the experience much worse because a summon can't accommodate for the buff the boss gets for it. On bosses you feel like you need a summon's help, you may need to experiment. Some co-opers really just can't stay alive long enough to be much help). If you aren't having fun because of the boss fights, you will have a very, very bad time when you get to the final boss. And that isn't a jab at you but because the final boss really wasn't well made and a lot of people really just don't like it. I've been co-oping for it for the past few days to help others try to beat it and it can be a rough experience and take a lot of tries, and a lot of spent rune arcs to get through for people.