Is it just me or are the bosses just not fun?

[MorinehtarTheBlue]

I've mulling over this question as Messmer continues to impale me over and over again, and I've come to the conclusion that I don't think I've actually had a fun experience with the bosses in this DLC. I like the DLC overall, the world aesthetic is good, the level design is brilliant and I like what I've seen so far of the new lore.

The bosses though just feel... like work? I don't quite know how to put it into words, but they seem designed to be hard in the most irritating way possible. I have not yet faced a boss that wasn't a stamina blender, either slashing away with a weapon barely fast enough for the eye to follow or charging around the room with massive hitboxes sending my camera into hysterics.

The DLC appears to double down on the worst aspects of the late game boss design of the base game, lots of AoE attacks, grabs that do massive amounts of damage, overly chunky boss healthbars, barely any downtime between attacks etc etc. It leads to fights that feel less like a challenge and more like a chore, I don't *want* to best Messmer the way i did Radhan or Godfrey, I more just want to get past him to continue playing the parts of the DLC I actually enjoy.

It especially doesn't help that From apparently dug out the unreleased Sekiro DLC notes as the basis for this DLC, as every man sized boss now zips around the arena like lady butterfly and fights devolve into streams of flashing colours, random damage and FPS drops. I like Sekiro and really enjoyed playing it, but it worked because it was an action game with specific mechanics based around deflection and posture.

That game design here upends any pretence ER had of being an RPG, as you're basically screwed unless you play the game the way the boss designer intended... even though that's not the point of an RPG and wasn't an issue in the base game until very very late the day.

As you can probably tell from the comment I'm disappointed in the DLC, and hope From can learn from the reaction to SoE when designing future games. I am though genuinely interested in other people's experiences in SoE, do you agree with me about the bosses or did you find them challenging in genuinely interesting ways?

[Janthis]

Originally posted by Paul5013:

The thing is, which is also a problem of the base game: Challenge is fine, the way how it is overcome is the problem.

The DLC does worse what has already been a problem in the base game. Most bosses arent beaten with raw skill, its trial and error, memory.
With Malenia, it literally was just this one move that you just had to memorize, and couldnt avoid or take without knowing exactly how it works. This made the fight problematic, but bearable.
In the DLC, most bosses have multiple of these moves, a bunch of flashy BS where you cannot clearly identify how and when the stuff deals damage and how to avoid it. Imo, this makes the sense of relief overweigh the sense of accomplishment, because it doesnt feel like you got good, it feels like you‘ve thrown yourself at it often enough and/or got lucky. Might be a personal thing, but I feel better knowing I improved to a point at which I am able to react to fair enemy attacks, than I do when just memorizing stuff. That just isnt a „get good“, it is a „spend time“. It is bad boss design.

I stand by it, that DS3 did it best. I cant remember anything severe that felt unfair and impossible to understand and beat on a first try. Some people consider it the hardest Souls, yet it only punished you severely for repeated mistakes. You could easily tank multiple hits and for me, most if not all attacks were clear and well telegraphed, not some surprise OHK explosion after a prior stomp attack or something of that sort.

Totally agreed. The bosses just aren't designed in a fun way. It's not like a fighting game where you learn your opponent's moves and how to counter them. Here it's like they are from a different game than the player. They're jumping around filling the screen with flashy crap like anime characters on steroids, meanwhile you're dodging for 5 minutes trying to find an opening to poke them once. And even that gets punished because they somehow extended their combo. So when you finally beat them there's no satisfaction, just relief that it's over.

DS3 already had shades of this with BS like the twin princes "teleports behind you and shoots his laser cannon" fight, but here they just doubled, tripled and quadrupled down on it.

[Talilover]

I don't have/ don't plan to get the dlc so can't comment on actual gameplay but I've started calling my dogs "mongrel intruder" any time they enter my room which is pretty fun

[1100011]

Originally posted by Jabberwock:

generally if you have been playing since ds1 you probably are older and have a lot more life obligations than previously.

life obligations sure wear you down.[www.frontiersin.org]

Still, you have to be aware that in FromSoft, it's almost always a matter of figuring things out vs. twitch timing. Exhibit A: hitless Radahn for 'scrubs' (and geezers, I suppose)

Edit: sauce[www.frontiersin.org]

[𝑀𝓊𝑔𝑒𝓃]

Minus Messmer and Midra , rest are meh

[AssassinSpy The Phantom]

Midra and Rellana are the only good fights, Messmer is just meh, boring spear user goes brrr I guess.

[Sgt. Flaw]

Originally posted by Rekhyt:

I have to agree with this post. The DLC was overall a good experience for me, some good fights, lots of amazing exploration.
But some bosses felt like chores. because they are so utterly crazy fast with long and varied combos, and impossible timings that defy physics and combat standards, that the learning curve is exclusively a matter of mastering their very specific moveset. This acquired experience becomes immediately useless once you leave the boss's room.

I love a challenge if this challenge truly helps me improve, but that's not the case with these bosses, they're like learning a full book by heart just so you're able to say you did it, it's not truly rewarding or satisfactory.

If there ever was a critisim for souls that I could identify with, its this one...

Most critisms are about long health bars, long combos ect..they haven't even played enough of the bosses to know they are dieing because they rolled 1/8th of a second to late in the wrong direction...rolled when they should run, ect...the bosses combos aren't long lol...like 5 moves tops with a punishment opening at the end...the thing is, you have to know how to dodge every move of that combo perfectly to get that punish move and you'll eventually break their stance and take a HUGE amount of health off....they're very tough and very strict this DLC..just rolling towards isn't enough...it has to be timed right and rolled towards and to the left to allow the second swing to miss to roll away to the right for the third hit..you roll when you're not suppose to you're ♥♥♥♥♥♥ in a stun lock combo and probably death...

I'll digress to the fact that I treat each boss like a puzzle...I like learning them individually...I don't hold it to my ego that since I beat Malenia at a lower level I should be able to smash this DLC. Each boss starts a process from square one to where you have no idea wtf is going on and it takes a good chunk of time to figure out what is going on regardless of your experience.

But also to mitigate the critisim...is most people who complain can use Scadus...there are more than enough to face tank entire combos and punish afterward lol...and most critisms seem like souls players who played like that anyway because they don't even know why they suck(or why the bosses suck lol)..it's not the health bars, the combos aren't long and Radahns moves aren't blinding...you just don't know how to formulate a dodging pattern to the combos and know when you ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up and why..you're just going in and hoping muscle memory alone carries you...it will not

[rlh445]

the bosses started to feel better once i had 15 or so scooby doos under my belt. prior, every enemy and boss hit me for half my 60 vigor with normal swipes. radahn had me hating my life, but other than him and that hog rider I had a pretty decent time against bosses.

[ASPolarity]

I lost interest in the dlc after beating divine beast and rellana. It’s not necessarily that it’s too hard (it’s not), it’s that it feels like I’m suddenly playing a different game. The aggression just makes it feel more like sekiro but without any of the mechanics that made that a satisfying experience.

I’ve felt this way more and more since Dark souls 3, where combat started to feel much more fast pace and action focused. Bloodborne was absolutely my jam, same with dark soul 1 and demons souls. The methodical, challenging and “wrong move and you die” combat was really great. Elden ring just feels overstimulating, especially late game and dlc. Perhaps I’m just getting older, but I do think there some major issues with the tuning.

I love a good challenge. I don’t love feeling disoriented because a massive boss rapidly attacks to the point I can’t see my character or even my health and stamina bar.

[dr46onfusion]

When I get to those mausoleum to kill those npc invaders in the room, I noticed they are just tanky 'great katana' or 'colossal sword' swinging enemies, with high poise that you need to cheese with multiplayer, or specific builds or tactics.

I had to resort to Palm strike spamming to kill the darn thing because it just tanks every single normal attacks, and they have high stats so they trade, even with a lv10 Scadu blessing and 60% slash resist.

[Halfalfasleep]

The DLC has the same flaws as the base game, it's just that it's harder to over-level; So when you ♥♥♥♥ up which dodge button you're supposed to use, or do anything besides shield riposte, it's a lot more noticeable.

EDIT: I will say that I enjoyed the DLC as a whole, despite it's flaws and Radahn's second phase lol.