To think a boss as only "annoying but not hard." SMDH

[Yard-Dog®]

TL/DR: I think it's dumb to say that bosses in Elden Ring and Shadow of the Erdtree are "annoying but not hard." Why? Because an easy boss wouldn't ever be called annoying...and an annoying boss would never be considered anything but challenging...or "hArD."

Indeed...not all bosses that pose a challenge are annoying, as they can be hard for other reasons independent of being annoying, but you can bet your arse that all annoying bosses are challenging...even if some of them only challenge your nerves due to having to fell them by means you'd prefer not to have to employ.

It's silly how many people think it's a real flex by saying "it's annoying but not hard."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the context of a game like Elden Ring and its Shadow of the Erdtree expansion, the distinction between a boss being "hard" versus "annoying" often comes down to subjective player experience, but let's delve into why calling a boss "annoying" rather than "hard" is a dumb oversimplification of boss design.

From a game design perspective, the difficulty of a boss is often carefully crafted to provide a challenge that tests the player's skills, reflexes, and strategic thinking. Dismissing a boss as merely "annoying" overlooks the deliberate design choices that contribute to its difficulty. These choices include attack patterns, timing, environment, and mechanics that are meant to push players to adapt and improve.

Labeling a boss as "annoying" can sometimes imply a frustration with mechanics that require a higher level of skill or a different strategy than the player is accustomed to. Elden Ring bosses, especially those in Shadow of the Erdtree, often have unique mechanics that require specific approaches. Finding these strategies and mastering the required skills is part of the intended challenge...and satisfaction.

The challenge posed by hard bosses is integral to the player's growth and sense of achievement. Overcoming a tough boss after numerous attempts leads to an arguably profound sense of accomplishment. Reducing this challenge to mere annoyance undermines the rewarding experience that the game aims to provide.

A balance between challenge and reward is crucial in games like Elden Ring. If a boss is truly only "annoying," it implies poor game balance or design flaws. However, Elden Ring is widely praised for its balance and challenging yet fair gameplay. This praise suggests that what some might perceive as "annoying" is, in fact, a carefully designed difficulty.

The idea of what is "annoying" versus "hard" can vary widely among players. What one player finds annoying due to personal playstyle preferences or skill level, another might find exhilarating and rewarding. Thus, calling a boss "annoying" can sometimes be more about the player's perspective than the actual design of the boss.

Many bosses in Elden Ring are designed to be difficult initially but become more manageable as the player learns and adapts. The initial frustration might feel like annoyance, but it is part of the learning curve that makes the eventual victory sweeter.
Dismissing this learning process as mere annoyance misses the point of the game’s design philosophy.

While a boss in Elden Ring might feel annoying due to repeated failures or seemingly unfair mechanics, this perception often stems from the challenge that the game is designed to provide. Recognizing this challenge as a crucial aspect of the gaming experience rather than dismissing it as annoyance helps appreciate the intricate design and the rewarding sense of accomplishment that often follows overcoming actually difficult bosses.

[Fineous🔥]

Originally posted by Sonnenbank:

Well the first thing OP needs to accept is that "fun" is something different for everyone.

Its best seen with the difference of me and my former longtime friend and antagonist @Fineous🔥

For him fun in Elden Ring means leveling to 300+ , get all the best gear possible and blast
a boss away in damage trading.
He feels joy shouting at the Boss : " Hey you i am stronger than you ! i have invested countless hours into this game to become op so my char can just stand in your attacks and not care while damage trading you into oblivion .
Feeeel my Pooooowaaaaa that i have assembled during my journey

Me on the other hand likes to play a simple naked blue man with a simple sword outdancing bosses because i have learned their moveset.

Both takes are valid.
people just have fun with different things.

now you telling me i dislike many of the bossfights because i find them too difficult
is just wrong :P lol

I dont hate you Penguin (HE HAS A PENGUIN HAS AVATAR...THIS IS NOT A INSULT) but you are right. I want to be overpowered as DUCK and oh boy....expansion has a lot of things to make you feel like a real god flying while everything around you explodes and die.

For the record, being max RL and playing max NG+ gave me 0 advantage over even the first ♥♥♥♥♥♥ bone bird waiting for me as Shadowlands welcome comitee since everything scaled to both levels and two or three shotings happened a lot. The only advantage i had was being extremly resourceful and being able to completly reinvent myself for every boss and still i got my behind handed to me with the last boss (4 hours..i swear he looks like a Remnant 2 boss but still Anhihilation apoca makes him to look like a cherub.) and others.

I actually enjoyed every boss battle, even old friends more overpowered than ever. Also the expansion featured the most deadly entity of all the souls games.....you will know who they are first time you meet them.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by Fistraiser:

Originally posted by Persona Au Gratin:

Nah, I'm with Sonnenbank. I think the idea that you can't criticize someone's craft on the user end is really funny. Because, paradoxically, creators will seek feedback from people with absolutely no familiarity with design all the time. Like, when I say I don't like Sennasax in the DLC, the dragon before Bayle, or whatever and I tell you I don't like the camera and simply beat him using throwing knives... yeah, I'm sorry, that fight isn't difficult. It's boring. If I choose to gamble and make myself miserable engaging it with melee, then I am making life harder on myself.

I chose not to, and I beat him my first attempt. It was an extremely boring experience, the creator, a game designer who made Matilda Castilla(SP?) said that a cardinal sin a designer can make is to make someone experience something in a game where you see the same thing over and over. While I'd be stretching their meaning and the context that applies, I think allowing me a solution and then letting me criticize precisely why that solution was effective and dissatisfying is absolutely fine when it goes into making something tedious.

For that dragon, you can make things slightly more difficult by choosing to joust him with Torrent, which is kind of fun but still a lot more interaction than I want to have with something.

I think trying to spite the player's experience is a sign of how poisoned the well is about these discussions. I'm trying to talk about play and what is involved, a patronizing nerd is obsessed with the dumber part of the topic (difficulty) and whether someone has credentials.

I personally would love if people critisized instead of blamed.they most of the time 2 different things.I think its a pity that steam forums has especially over the last 10 years degenerated into people with rage issues making posts to flame game and most of the users to blame them for their own lack of effort put into a game.
Its bad for the game community and it doesnt help the devs at all.thats why 99% of game devs apart from a few indie devs have abandoned the steam forums for feedback.because they know the majority is people trolling or looking for a fight with the devs.
Like how many threads have there been since dlc launched with actual proper discussion.several people asked for advice or info about dlc but they the ones with the least contributions.
Look at the ones where people want to have discussion about other things in the game nobody reply.
But as soon as you mention dificulty everyone pounces on it to rage and vent.
Unfortunatly people love to argue for the sake of arguing.They love to trash games to be 'one of the crowd'

Too many people rage and attack devs for not making changes they want but dont seem to understand these companies know the stats they spend a lot of money on gathering the data from people playing and they are more reliable than peoples 'hear or say on the internet'

It's so annoying that people have made so many complaint thread about the game but not gone into for the most part any real detail why they mad at game beside the 'its too hard or i take too much damage etc'
It's a really good DLC but people just want to moan about whats bad and not actually discuss the game.not talk about the positive points.

I think that it's this notion that "you just have to summon" is, itself, a meme, when the game is extremely cavalier about when and where you can summon. There are, GASP, a few field elite enemies/bosses you cannot summon help for! And then sometimes you can summon help against, say, a Runebear in a field and then in the exact same area (Leyndell) you're not allowed that option.

It's all a contest to pacify people, vs seeing any credit in their complaints.

[AdamWe]

Have you ever fought the furnace golems (I know, I know, not technically a boss because they have no healthbar)?
IMO they are very simple to learn, but can be annoying time wasters.
Wailing on their legs for what feels like an eternity (probably just 3 mins) and watching the same animations over and over is not my favorite part of Elden Ring.

[Marmarmar34]

That's a great argument OP, but I have a rebuttal that completely shatters all of your points.

Bed of Chaos.

Not hard since it's parts stay broken if you die in the fight. EXTREMELY annoying, because the whole fight is platforming while the whomping willow goes haywire.

Same can be said about Blight Town.

Easy, since there's enough bonfires to get through each part. Annoying, because of the toxic dart shooters.

Annoying things aren't inherently hard.

[CastielArch]

Originally posted by Yard-Dog®:

TL/DR: an easy boss wouldn't ever be called annoying

Magma wyrm is super easy, telegraphed moves and very simple to understand, yet it is a horribly annoying boss when it can spam its magma charge multiple times in a row, sometimes in a closed arena on top of that. But there is nothing difficult about the boss, even avoiding the charge is rather easy, but it's annoying when for 20 seconds straight you can do nothing but watch it smear lava everywhere.
Furnace golems are also super easy, almost braindead to fight, that doean't mean it's not annoying to fight the camera and perspective for the 5min the fight takes.
Putrescent Knight is also very frustrating, his attacks aren't very complicated, but him running away constantly leaving super short attack windows is the same problem as Elden Beast, but at least EB has the excuse of being mostly a caster/range boss, PK is a melee boss that never lets you melee him...

[Fistraiser]

Originally posted by AdamWe:

Have you ever fought the furnace golems (I know, I know, not technically a boss because they have no healthbar)?
IMO they are very simple to learn, but can be annoying time wasters.
Wailing on their legs for what feels like an eternity (probably just 3 mins) and watching the same animations over and over is not my favorite part of Elden Ring.

With those it feels more they put on map to annoy you in certain places or places with condensed amount of enemies and they decided to make them super beefy and give them rewards.
I dont think they were needed really.dont feel they add anything of interest to the game and i know i gonna get hate by some people for say this but i rather they just put them on beefed up shadow lands version of tree sentinels.

[Yard-Dog®]

Originally posted by Sonnenbank:

Originally posted by Yard-Dog®:

Are you being disingenuous? I ask, because I've given no indication, at least intentionally, that I don't accept such things as "fun is something different for everyone."

hey

Originally posted by Yard-Dog®:

I think it's dumb to say that bosses in Elden Ring and Shadow of the Erdtree are "annoying but not hard." Why? Because an easy boss wouldn't ever be called annoying...and an annoying boss would never be considered anything but challenging...or "hArD."

That says nothing to your point though. "Not fun" doesn't mean annoying. And I didn't bring up "fun" in my argument. You did in your initial post to this thread.

now you telling me i dislike many of the bossfights because i find them too difficult
is just wrong :P lol

I think you've misunderstood me altogether, because I said no such thing.

I essentially said that you're likely not having fun in part due likely to those bosses losing their luster naturally over time from your repeated exposure to them; desensitization.

You did indicate that you can beat them all easily with no effort. However, I do question if you always could do so with no effort, but I never said that they're not fun for you because they are difficult. They're not fun for you, because they're not fun. You said they're not fun, and I accepted that, but I was never concerned with all the reasons that you find them not fun and only quipped as to one likely reason "in part."

[AdamWe]

Originally posted by Fistraiser:

Originally posted by AdamWe:

Have you ever fought the furnace golems (I know, I know, not technically a boss because they have no healthbar)?
IMO they are very simple to learn, but can be annoying time wasters.
Wailing on their legs for what feels like an eternity (probably just 3 mins) and watching the same animations over and over is not my favorite part of Elden Ring.

With those it feels more they put on map to annoy you in certain places or places with condensed amount of enemies and they decided to make them super beefy and give them rewards.
I dont think they were needed really.dont feel they add anything of interest to the game and i know i gonna get hate by some people for say this but i rather they just put them on beefed up shadow lands version of tree sentinels.

I actually like their design and lore behind them, but I wish the gameplay mechanics behind them were more fleshed out.

Another versions of Tree Sentinels, however, also sounds kinda nice. They could have used Gaius as a template.

[Marmarmar34]

Bro's try to make the argument that not fun things and annoying things are different! 😭🤣

Goalpost much?

[Fistraiser]

Originally posted by AdamWe:

Originally posted by Fistraiser:

With those it feels more they put on map to annoy you in certain places or places with condensed amount of enemies and they decided to make them super beefy and give them rewards.
I dont think they were needed really.dont feel they add anything of interest to the game and i know i gonna get hate by some people for say this but i rather they just put them on beefed up shadow lands version of tree sentinels.

I actually like their design and lore behind them, but I wish the gameplay mechanics behind them were more fleshed out.

Another versions of Tree Sentinels, however, also sounds kinda nice. They could have used Gaius as a template.

I think the problem with huge enemies is its harder to make them with good mechanics especially given the way the game plays.
Fire Giant in base game is perfect example.looks cool.stuff he does seems cool.But then he rolls half way across the map.you gotta chase him for ages to catch up and get in a hit.and this process repeats itself.
And thats the core issue when all of your games attacks can only go up to a certain range except for bows which have quite bigger distance.
Nobody likes looking at just a pair of legs on a monster when attacking them because it ruins the atmosphere of the fight.
A lot of the larger enemies you arent fighting them.you just fighting their legs.
Some more interesting mechanics i guess would be that you have to actually jump on them and attack them once you on their body.could use spirit springs as a way to get onto them i guess.Just they need to be something more than 99% of the time its a battle attacking their legs.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by Fistraiser:

Originally posted by AdamWe:

I actually like their design and lore behind them, but I wish the gameplay mechanics behind them were more fleshed out.

Another versions of Tree Sentinels, however, also sounds kinda nice. They could have used Gaius as a template.

I think the problem with huge enemies is its harder to make them with good mechanics especially given the way the game plays.
Fire Giant in base game is perfect example.looks cool.stuff he does seems cool.But then he rolls half way across the map.you gotta chase him for ages to catch up and get in a hit.and this process repeats itself.
And thats the core issue when all of your games attacks can only go up to a certain range except for bows which have quite bigger distance.
Nobody likes looking at just a pair of legs on a monster when attacking them because it ruins the atmosphere of the fight.
A lot of the larger enemies you arent fighting them.you just fighting their legs.
Some more interesting mechanics i guess would be that you have to actually jump on them and attack them once you on their body.could use spirit springs as a way to get onto them i guess.Just they need to be something more than 99% of the time its a battle attacking their legs.

Something I do want to say, someone I knew basically strategized and executed a means of combating the Fire Giant with magic. It looked fun, the problem is that if you didn't build magic I think you go down this list of options such as "Do I have a decent weapon with a good ranged weapon Ash?"

The major thing is that I think the propensity to be like "Use a summon" is so overwrought and annoying because I feel like there are times where the game wants to have it both ways and doesn't succeed at the vision of a game where you create a character who may, gasp, adhere to a specific moveset.

The game tries to dissuade this with the notion of the Golden Order being a unification of Intelligence and Faith, to not limit yourself... but then it wants the dogma or adherence to those disciplines to also be appealing. There's a lot of playing over the table where I really feel like "No, you really need to do a better job of earning this out of me."

For instance, I had a friend tell me that Melina is completely useless against Morgott... and then I realized that that's kind of the point. Her last act is to set a spell that dramatically causes your HP to increase. I would love if I had a summon ash of MELINA and not just a one time interaction with her. There's so much stuff left on the table with these ideas because the first notion the designer had was "Make game difficult in arbitrary way." And sometimes, they don't necessarily even succeed at something being difficult.

There's a lot of toys in play in Elden Ring, a lot of variation to a potential player experience. What is so insipid about the difficulty topic nonstarter is that most of us aren't making decisions purely off the basis of how much easier or difficult the game becomes, we're trying to role play. It is a roleplaying game and I feel like it's only cynicism that looks at that and wants to spite it while using a term like "Overtuned." There's just so much I despise about attempts at pacifying player's being heated because sometimes I really do think that there's a decent argument to be made about the game going way too far in ways it doesn't need to to enforce its difficulty and then it undermines these wonderful, dramatic moments or even just the basic USEFULNESS of items because "Oh you can't use them here, that'd be too good."

Like, you have to be allowed to use Summon Ashes in certain areas lmfao. It's VERY arbitrary.

[Yard-Dog®]

Originally posted by Marmarmar34:

That's a great argument OP, but I have a rebuttal that completely shatters all of your points.

Bed of Chaos.

Not hard since it's parts stay broken if you die in the fight. EXTREMELY annoying, because the whole fight is platforming while the whomping willow goes haywire.

Same can be said about Blight Town.

Easy, since there's enough bonfires to get through each part. Annoying, because of the toxic dart shooters.

Annoying things aren't inherently hard.

Bah. We're talking about annoying bosses not annoying "things," situations, etc.

Originally posted by CastielArch:

Originally posted by Yard-Dog®:

TL/DR: an easy boss wouldn't ever be called annoying

Magma wyrm is super easy, telegraphed moves and very simple to understand, yet it is a horribly annoying boss when it can spam its magma charge multiple times in a row, sometimes in a closed arena on top of that. But there is nothing difficult about the boss, even avoiding the charge is rather easy, but it's annoying when for 20 seconds straight you can do nothing but watch it smear lava everywhere.
Furnace golems are also super easy, almost braindead to fight, that doean't mean it's not annoying to fight the camera and perspective for the 5min the fight takes.
Putrescent Knight is also very frustrating, his attacks aren't very complicated, but him running away constantly leaving super short attack windows is the same problem as Elden Beast, but at least EB has the excuse of being mostly a caster/range boss, PK is a melee boss that never lets you melee him...

Nothing difficult about the boss? Was your patience not tried as he spammed his Magma Charge for 20 seconds straight? Was your restraint so honed that you knew he does that during your first encounter and waited him out? Or did you rashly scramble into panic rolls?

All other things equal...why would a super easy boss be annoying? That's starting to speak to people's psychological propensities for being annoyed when even the annoyance is of no consequence, and that's not what I'm discussing here.

[Kulin]

Originally posted by Yard-Dog®:

TL/DR: I think it's dumb to say that bosses in Elden Ring and Shadow of the Erdtree are "annoying but not hard." Why? Because an easy boss wouldn't ever be called annoying...and an annoying boss would never be considered anything but challenging...or "hArD."

The reason for this kind of talk is the toxic community around this game. One wrong word and all you get to hear is "git gud". So everyone is trying their best to not make the impression they find this game difficult. This culture has become so stupid that people can't even talk objectively even more without jumping eachother.

[Xengre]

Originally posted by Sonnenbank:

TL/DR: I think it's dumb to say that bosses in Elden Ring and Shadow of the Erdtree are "annoying but not hard." Why? Because an easy boss wouldn't ever be called annoying...and an annoying boss would never be considered anything but challenging...or "hArD."

well you are wrong....

bosses of base game that i find particularly annoying and yet can beat without any effort easily

1.) Morgott
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgMebwEZ8Z4
i can easily beat him but its just not fun for me

2.) Fire Giant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mixwO3rjKr8

3.) Malekith
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LToi3-Zb_eQ

Bosses i love most in ER base game
1.) Malenia
2.) Horah Loux

Good examples, imo. This was me with Midir in DS3. A very basic pattern solo and easy but annoying boss, frankly. Even more annoying helping others beat him.

I also feel similarly about Fire Giant. Not a hard boss as you said but his rolling and crap is utterly annoying.

In the DLC, so far, I think Dancing Lion tops my most annoying chart. Doing it at RL1 with the camera issues and his phase 2 is by far the most F'ing annoying boss in the entire game for me. Yet, if I actually leveled I think it would be a pretty reasonable and decent boss though camera still annoying but since the crazy movements and camera wouldn't result in me making mistakes as easily and being 1-tapped, esp phase 2 lightning, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. The fight seems intended for a party with its phase 2 so if I did it in coop even better and I might quite like that boss (since FROMs usual MO is failure to design bosses for coop but this one looks to be a success).

Quite a different take depending on the context.

I'm curious why you don't like Morgott's first encounter? Just too basic? Or maybe its wombo combo is annoying but not too bad hence the simply just soak hits and trade for simplicity?

[AdamWe]

Originally posted by Fistraiser:

Originally posted by AdamWe:

I actually like their design and lore behind them, but I wish the gameplay mechanics behind them were more fleshed out.

Another versions of Tree Sentinels, however, also sounds kinda nice. They could have used Gaius as a template.

I think the problem with huge enemies is its harder to make them with good mechanics especially given the way the game plays.
Fire Giant in base game is perfect example.looks cool.stuff he does seems cool.But then he rolls half way across the map.you gotta chase him for ages to catch up and get in a hit.and this process repeats itself.
And thats the core issue when all of your games attacks can only go up to a certain range except for bows which have quite bigger distance.
Nobody likes looking at just a pair of legs on a monster when attacking them because it ruins the atmosphere of the fight.
A lot of the larger enemies you arent fighting them.you just fighting their legs.
Some more interesting mechanics i guess would be that you have to actually jump on them and attack them once you on their body.could use spirit springs as a way to get onto them i guess.Just they need to be something more than 99% of the time its a battle attacking their legs.

I am with you on this 100%. As a melee user I have spent too much time being at/in the ankles, crotch and/or butt of some large dude. xD

The sad part is that the golems HAVE a mechanic in place with the hefty pots.
The vertical layout of the world would have been a nice opportunity to make them puzzle bosses, where you have find a suitable vantage point.

They did it with the armored furnace golems and it was pretty nice.