why is life so difficult for Sorcery users in ER?

[ChrisTheEnby]

I'm been stuck in what still feels like the early game for forever and haven't been able to enjoy myself as a magic user. I still can't beat rennala, because i either die in the first phase when you have to fight the students because i get 1-2 shot by all of the stuff being flung around frome very direction, or the times I do make it to phase 2 I end up dying because I end up burning through my flasks really quickly because I can barely deal any damage to Rennala. Most normal magic doesn't seem to hurt her that much, and because I game my rapier int-scaling, it comes with the side-effect of changing it's damage type to magic, which Rennala resists.

I do have the the Rock Throw spell from Caelid that doens't do the usual magic damage and that works a little bit better but i either run out of FP or die because it's got a bit of a windup to it's cast time, so it's harder to avoid getting hit by a lot of Rennala's attacks.

I don't think I could just go somewhere else, Caelid (other than my brief excursion to get the Meteorite staff and Rock Throw) seems a lot harder than Liurnia/Raya Lucaria and I feel like i'm not supposed to be there yet, meanwhile I think I can't move on to the other area to the north until Rennala is defeated. (I think?) So I don't know what else I could be doing instead if it's just a lack of items or stats or what.

I thought it would be helpful to provide a screenshot of my current stats/spell allocations, and I can go over my gear as well if needed.

https://imgur.com/a/FUfMH2g

I know everything not relating to spellcasting is currently really low, but I think that's one big thing that's tripping me up is Sorceries feel like they have an absurb stat requirement in Elden Ring, given the levels of Int you need to even slot new spells. even with this amount of investment in int, I till don't have quite enough to slot comet, and I hear the int requirements for the later spells only ramp up more and more, so i feel like I never truly have an "opening" to level vigor or to get more stamina, or meet the str/dex requirements for better armor and weapons, even as I am now I don't really wanna lose a light roll because I feel like light-rolling is super important for casters.

In Dark Souls 3, I did not have this problem because in Dark Souls 3 you could get away with WAY less int as long as you slotted the right spells and upgraded your staff, meaning you had more freedom to level health and stamina, Because you didn't need a ton of int you could worry not worry about needing enough int and level health and stamina more openly because the minimum int requirements were never all that high.

But in Elden Ring, it almost feels like you're obligated to like start as a standard melee build with the survivability stats that maybe lightly dabbles in magic, and only grab the large amounts int to be an actual caster in the lategate when you're already sitting on a ton of health, but it feel like it's easier to get that build staple 60 vigor as a melee build because str/dex requires less investment to do decent damage compared to magic.

was the whole idea that they wanted to lower the power level of sorceries in Elden Ring, or at least make them require high investment because of complaints people had in previous games about magic being "easy mode" in games like Dark Souls3? Because it certainly seems like they accomplished that...

[Tobi89]

Was a while since I played sorc, but basically you need to think around your FP usage and range.

For instance do you wanna be a close range sorc or a long range sorc. Both uses quite different builds in my opinion. You also shouldn't put prio on spells that deal a lot of dmg compared to their FP cost to make an example.

Glintstone pebble with a good build will deal about 400 dmg for 7 FP.
Comet with the same build will deal about 900 dmg for 24 FP.

So 3.4 pebble casts equals 1 comet cast so let's just make 3 pebble casts which would equal 1200 dmg for 21 fp vs 900 dmg for 24 fp. Comet does however have the added effect that it can penetrate enemies. But for most enemies pebble will have the greatest effect both when it comes to the dmg and the FP used.

Overall for range you'd probably wanna use something like Pebble for most stuff, shard spiral melts large bosses for the most part, rock sling is great against certain enemies, comet azur let's you delete certain bosses but not that great outside of that, magma shot to have some fire dmg against certain enemies. Overall very few enemies are weak to magic dmg, most of the bosses are instead resistant towards it, while fire + lightning are the two dmg types most enemies are weak against. So you really want to bring other types of dmg as a sorc or you'll have a hard time.

Overall you wanna stay out of range as a ranged sorc, lock on when you cast spells but try to not keep lock on when not casting locking on an enemy makes it harder to dodge, jump or strafe around an enemy to not get hit. You can pretty much side step / run around most attacks from enemies if your not target locked. Jumping also let's you dodge most attacks easier then dodging, basically lock on + dodging makes the game overall harder especially if you wanna play as a ranged sorc. Lock on does help you keep the camera on the enemy to easier see what their doing.

When it comes to melee one of the strongest builds at the moment is to go with a melee sorc focused around carian greatsword while wielding a greatsword which gives you hyper armor (you only get hyper armor while wielding a greatsword), deals ton of dmg and a good stance break it will pretty much stagger anything in PvE if you do the full combo. Works well at close range, medium range and versus single or multiple enemies. With a fairly low FP cost at 12 FP. Carian slicer can also work as a more of a quick attack but mostly normal weapon attacks works better.

Overall when I play sorc I go for flashy spells and not so much for them being good but that playstyle just makes the game harder. At the moment I would say that playing as a ranged sorc is probably amongst the hardest playstyles except for certain scenarios, since many ashes of wars or weapon builds just let's you delete enemies, for instance ash of war rolling sparks let's you just one-shot bosses or at most need 2-3 attacks even with DLC bosses, swift slash also makes a mockery out of PvP at the moment being basically unbeatable with just simple swift slash spam.

Finally I would if you wanna keep playing as a sorc recommend checking out some vids or something on where to find some of the sorceries I mentioned and some gear that helps you out.

Also looking at your build you really want to get more VIG usually at around lvl 40-50 you would want to have around 25-30 VIG or the game will be a real pain getting killed over and over. A typical recommendation for a ranged sorc is to start as an astrologer and then go something like.

Lvl 30
Vigor: 18
Mind: 19
Endurance: 12
Strength: 8
Dexterity: 16
Intelligence: 20
Faith: 7
Arcane: 9

Lvl 80
Vigor: 33
Mind: 30
Endurance: 18
Strength: 12
Dexterity: 20
Intelligence: 30
Faith: 7
Arcane: 9

Lvl 120
Vigor: 40
Mind: 30
Endurance: 18
Strength: 16
Dexterity: 27
Intelligence: 52
Faith: 7
Arcane: 9

This is just taken directly from an article about these kinds of builds but pretty much you want to put most of your stats in VIG, MIND and INT. Prio is actually VIG up to eventually 60ish, MIND around 30-35 and INT around 60. Basically go for about 1 point in each as you lvl until MIND is 30 then go for VIG + INT, though do try to look up some requirements for STR + DEX for certain items you might wanna use and get your stats to those lvls.

Again this is just some general recommendations but overall I would say your character really needs more VIG and MIND, INT is good but it mostly just increases your dmg though also some magic resistance, VIG gives more HP, immunity + fire resistance and MIND gives you more FP and focus.

Keep in mind that MIND should at least be upgraded in turn with your cerulean tears upgrades since the FP gain goes like this (these are base gains before using talismans).

Flask of Cerulean Tears Level: 0 +1 +2 +3 +4 +5 +6 +7 +8 +9 +10 +11 +12
FP Healed: 80 95 110 125 140 150 160 170 180 190 200 210 220
Min Mind to accept all FP from one flask: 11 15 18 21 24 26 28 30 32 34 35 37 38

Again these are just some examples grabbed of the web. But you can clearly see that you need to upgrade your MIND at certain points or loose out on a lot of restored FP from flasks.

[Bastila Shan]

She has massive magic resistance so shes the hardest boss for magic user early builds. But most of the game a magic user build just breezes through the base game with the right spells.

[ChrisTheEnby]

Originally posted by epreber0809:

You just gotta accept that you need Vigor more than you need int for comet right now bro. Make due with what you can use till you can afford high int spells. Glintstone pebble is the bread and butter. You get some other stronger and cheaper spells between pebble and comet. I am pretty sure. Id say do some exploring especialy the lakes area and look for some scrolls to take to Sellen and go back to Renalla after a while with some Vigor. Dose Sellen not sell a couple beefier spells than the starting ones right out the gate? I've only tried a sorcerer build till about your lvl. I started as a wretch that had to take the stormveil detour though, to buy the staff from the merchant and base spells from Thops.

it's just so hard to focus on leveling other stats when the game dangles better spells in front of me constantly making me feel like my int is too low.

Like i said before, I'll cite the example of Dark Souls 3. early game in DS3 you didn't even have access to higher-int spells for quite a while, and the t2-t3 versions of Soul Arrow had low int requirements and that meant because you hadn't unlocked better spells yet, you had more freedom to invest in other stats so you didn't get killed as easily or so you had more stamina. You didn't get the 30ish-int int upgrade for Great Soul Arrow (Soul Spear) until.... Profaned Capital, very well into the mid-game. Hence you had a lot of time to invest into health and stamina because int wasn't neccecary for a while, and you didn't see another single-target spell upgrade from Soul Spear until all the way in Grand Archives which was close to the ending of the base game, and that was only like 40-ish Int. Even DS3's "ultimate" spell was like 50-ish int at most, and soul stream was arguably only situationally more useful than Crystal Soul Spear.

Elden Ring seems to CONSTANTLY throw new spells at you, though, so you seem to never get the "break" you need to spend on vigor or stamina or the like. you're expected to constantly spend on int to chase the new spell. Because if you played sorceries in previous souls game, you'll remember just how much of a night and day difference it is when you get a new "tier" of a main single shot spell, I can tell you from what i remember, going from Soul Arrow to Soul Spear in Dark Souls 3 was a night and day difference.

in Elden Ring though, it almost feels like you're incentivized to just go grind somewhere for hours (or use one of the "leveling tricks") to just get incredibly overleveled for where you are in the game to be able to have both the required vigor levels and the int you need to slot stuff. And at this point of the game, there's not like, great places to really do that. I could go back to limgrave or weeping peninsula and kill the same weak enemies for days....

[RhodosGuard]

Get Vig (I have finished the game with between 30 and 40 vig on all my characters, but they've all been melee with heavier armor, so I dont know how well it translates, most people advocate to aim for the 60 Vig Softcap)

Max your casting Speed
(either get 30 Dex and Radagon Icon, or Radagon Icon and the Staff that also adds virtual Dex)

Get used to your casting times, and you should be able to utilize spells pretty well.

Originally posted by ChrisTheEnby:

Originally posted by epreber0809:

You just gotta accept that you need Vigor more than you need int for comet right now bro. Make due with what you can use till you can afford high int spells. Glintstone pebble is the bread and butter. You get some other stronger and cheaper spells between pebble and comet. I am pretty sure. Id say do some exploring especialy the lakes area and look for some scrolls to take to Sellen and go back to Renalla after a while with some Vigor. Dose Sellen not sell a couple beefier spells than the starting ones right out the gate? I've only tried a sorcerer build till about your lvl. I started as a wretch that had to take the stormveil detour though, to buy the staff from the merchant and base spells from Thops.

it's just so hard to focus on leveling other stats when the game dangles better spells in front of me constantly making me feel like my int is too low.

Like i said before, I'll cite the example of Dark Souls 3. early game in DS3 you didn't even have access to higher-int spells for quite a while, and the t2-t3 versions of Soul Arrow had low int requirements and that meant because you hadn't unlocked better spells yet, you had more freedom to invest in other stats so you didn't get killed as easily or so you had more stamina. You didn't get the 30ish-int int upgrade for Great Soul Arrow (Soul Spear) until.... Profaned Capital, very well into the mid-game. Hence you had a lot of time to invest into health and stamina because int wasn't neccecary for a while, and you didn't see another single-target spell upgrade from Soul Spear until all the way in Grand Archives which was close to the ending of the base game, and that was only like 40-ish Int. Even DS3's "ultimate" spell was like 50-ish int at most, and soul stream was arguably only situationally more useful than Crystal Soul Spear.

Elden Ring seems to CONSTANTLY throw new spells at you, though, so you seem to never get the "break" you need to spend on vigor or stamina or the like. you're expected to constantly spend on int to chase the new spell. Because if you played sorceries in previous souls game, you'll remember just how much of a night and day difference it is when you get a new "tier" of a main single shot spell, I can tell you from what i remember, going from Soul Arrow to Soul Spear in Dark Souls 3 was a night and day difference.

in Elden Ring though, it almost feels like you're incentivized to just go grind somewhere for hours (or use one of the "leveling tricks") to just get incredibly overleveled for where you are in the game to be able to have both the required vigor levels and the int you need to slot stuff. And at this point of the game, there's not like, great places to really do that. I could go back to limgrave or weeping peninsula and kill the same weak enemies for days....

That sounds like a self-control problem.
Early Game Spells are usually fine to use simply due to the Inc/Soc Scaling on your Seal/Staff, so if you see a sexy 50 Int Spell, you dont need to rush to 50 int just so you can socket it in.

If you know rushing Int for higher level spells is bad, then dont do it?

[ChrisTheEnby]

Originally posted by RhodosGuard:

Get Vig (I have finished the game with between 30 and 40 vig on all my characters, but they've all been melee with heavier armor, so I dont know how well it translates, most people advocate to aim for the 60 Vig Softcap)

Max your casting Speed
(either get 30 Dex and Radagon Icon, or Radagon Icon and the Staff that also adds virtual Dex)

Get used to your casting times, and you should be able to utilize spells pretty well.

Originally posted by ChrisTheEnby:

it's just so hard to focus on leveling other stats when the game dangles better spells in front of me constantly making me feel like my int is too low.

Like i said before, I'll cite the example of Dark Souls 3. early game in DS3 you didn't even have access to higher-int spells for quite a while, and the t2-t3 versions of Soul Arrow had low int requirements and that meant because you hadn't unlocked better spells yet, you had more freedom to invest in other stats so you didn't get killed as easily or so you had more stamina. You didn't get the 30ish-int int upgrade for Great Soul Arrow (Soul Spear) until.... Profaned Capital, very well into the mid-game. Hence you had a lot of time to invest into health and stamina because int wasn't neccecary for a while, and you didn't see another single-target spell upgrade from Soul Spear until all the way in Grand Archives which was close to the ending of the base game, and that was only like 40-ish Int. Even DS3's "ultimate" spell was like 50-ish int at most, and soul stream was arguably only situationally more useful than Crystal Soul Spear.

Elden Ring seems to CONSTANTLY throw new spells at you, though, so you seem to never get the "break" you need to spend on vigor or stamina or the like. you're expected to constantly spend on int to chase the new spell. Because if you played sorceries in previous souls game, you'll remember just how much of a night and day difference it is when you get a new "tier" of a main single shot spell, I can tell you from what i remember, going from Soul Arrow to Soul Spear in Dark Souls 3 was a night and day difference.

in Elden Ring though, it almost feels like you're incentivized to just go grind somewhere for hours (or use one of the "leveling tricks") to just get incredibly overleveled for where you are in the game to be able to have both the required vigor levels and the int you need to slot stuff. And at this point of the game, there's not like, great places to really do that. I could go back to limgrave or weeping peninsula and kill the same weak enemies for days....

That sounds like a self-control problem.
Early Game Spells are usually fine to use simply due to the Inc/Soc Scaling on your Seal/Staff, so if you see a sexy 50 Int Spell, you dont need to rush to 50 int just so you can socket it in.

If you know rushing Int for higher level spells is bad, then dont do it?

You know what, maybe it is a self control problem. Maybe i just have a hard time being able to level other stats if i see a spell I have in my attunement menu, and it nags in my mind every time i open the attunement menu and see i have spells i lack the int to slot, maybe it's just like a bad habit Dark Souls 3 trained in me because in that game, spells were more spread out, and i would like only level other stats when i was "all caught up on magic for where i was" It's just a very hard habit to break out of since you find new spells in short bursts in the previous souls games while Elden Ring buries you in them and expect you to show enough restraint to ignore that magic.

[Ashenran]

It's a troll again