Spoilers - Lore Discussion - Is this the worst lore DLC From has made?

[Chris1]

Let's talk the ending boss reveal - Radahn of all people. They ret-conned Malenia saying "promised cohort" to Radahn in their battle, something that has no other reference or hint in the base game. All the most likely theories for why Malenia was fighting Radahn involved her assuming he kidnapped Miquella, or some problem with Radahn holding back stars preventing Miquella from achieving his victories.

This is also somewhat tied into the Amber Starlight, which is found directly in front of a statue of Miquella/Malenia.

St Trina? She apparently is a manifestation of Miquella's love and is left in some cave in the shadow realm. How does that jive with all the other St Trina content, including her proselytizing around the lands between? What is up with St Trina basically killing people who imbibe nectar?

The entire concept of the shadow realm, why did Miquella even need to ascend to the shadow realm? Why is Messmer related and locked there and why did Messmer seal Miquella? These are all children of Marika and yet the story trailer implies these events kicked off Marika's ascension to god-hood, so she was having these kids before that? The timeline doesn't make any sense.

IMO it would have been much cooler if they at least left corroborating hints of all of this in the base game so they could point to a cohesive and consistent narrative, but it's almost like they left everything so intentionally vague and without context that they could do whatever they want in the DLC and just call it a day.

All throughout the DLC I got strong vibes of "they are just making this stuff up and not even trying to make sense" and it kind of ruined the base game lore for me.

[David_The_Great]

I thought the lore was pretty cool. I was mostly looking forward to more information about the Hornsent, Marika/the Greater Will and the Outer God's and we got plenty of that. Miquella was pretty interesting but he wasn't the main focus for me.

I also find it kinda funny that there are tons of horrible things that happen in Elden Ring lore (and just souls games in general) but incest is too much for a lot of yall?

[Sotherin]

The Promised Consort could have been literally anyone.
There were a few hints towards Radahn, the secret rite scroll, and some dialogue from Freyja.
I would have preferred to interact with the man a bit. I feel that the guy who learned an entire branch of magic just to ride his favored steed would have more personality. And he doesn't say a damn word the entire time? Is it even Radahn we're fighting, or just a moving corpse enchanted my Miquella?

[Sotherin]

Originally posted by David_The_Great:

I thought the lore was pretty cool. I was mostly looking forward to more information about the Hornsent, Marika/the Greater Will and the Outer God's and we got plenty of that. Miquella was pretty interesting but he wasn't the main focus for me.

I also find it kinda funny that there are tons of horrible things that happen in Elden Ring lore (and just souls games in general) but incest is too much for a lot of yall?

Do we even know for sure that incest is what's going on? There was a lot of "old speak" in Elden Ring, and one of the definitions is simply a "companion or partner".
I mean, it mostly likely is incest, given Georges involvement, but if their goals were similar enough, I could easily see them working together in a platonic way.
One, with the potential of an Empyrean to become a God, and the other with the Strength of a Lord.

[Sotherin]

Originally posted by Neo:

it all just comes across as 'damn we couldn't think of a way to justify fighting miquella at the end of the dlc so we character assassinated everyone we could to make it happen'. bad writing.

Not much justification needed. You are a candidate for Elden Lord, who will choose the future of the Lands Between.
Miquella turned himself into a Rival God, with his own Lord, and his own Age in mind.
A Lord Candidate, or Lord outright, would obviously have issues with a foreign power, especially one that utilizes literal mind control.

[David_The_Great]

Originally posted by ntrojisan:

Originally posted by Buurt:

The lore is great.... it has like million things going on alone map wise.....
Its one of the best DLC's design and lore wise and everything else.
The main story lore overall is always weak, but 80% of the lore isn't even found out about yet.
The whole map design has lore reasons and what else.....
Only reason to say the lore is weak is when you don't even know about 90% of it

Good job defending Miyazaki's storytelling. We will approve the transaction for your work. Expect to see your payment by 2-3 working days.

Most obnoxious comment on here. God forbid someone likes the games lore.

[David_The_Great]

I think I can answer some of Chris1's questions though.

Miquella ascended to the land of shadow to become a god. He wanted to help heal Malenia and put Godwyn to rest but could not under Marikas rule, so he decided to become a god to fix things himself(probably more than this but thats all ik right now).

Marika is from the Shaman Village who was subjected to basically torture from the Hornsent to become "saints", which has something to do with the Hornsents obsession with divinity. Marika became a prominent figure in Hornsent society them betrayed them by ordering Messmer and his army to slaughter them all, as revenge for what they did to her village.

Messmer is likely a son of her and Radagon, so like Malenia and Miquella he was born with a defect. This is the "abysmal serpent" which made him "shorn of light" which Marika felt threatened by so she kept him in the land of shadow to keep the war going pretty much forever. Messmer didn't "seal" Miquella idk what you even mean by that or where you got it from.

Mohg was charmed into believing he would become lord and overthrow the Golden Order alongside Miquella and create a dynasty with the power of the Formless Mother. He was completely unaware of Miquella's true motives.

[Key]

Lore-wise yes, absolutely.

It's the only DLC that manages to retroactively sh*t on a bunch of characters while having an immensely unsatisfying ending and being completely irrelevant to the the main game.

[David_The_Great]

Originally posted by Key:

Lore-wise yes, absolutely. It's the only DLC that manages to retroactively sh*t on a bunch of characters while having an immensely unsatisfying ending.

Which characters are yall talking about? The only one I can think of is Miquella and even that's a stretch.

[Mr.America]

Originally posted by David_The_Great:

Marika is from the Shaman Village who was subjected to basically torture from the Hornsent to become "saints", which has something to do with the Hornsents obsession with divinity. Marika became a prominent figure in Hornsent society them betrayed them by ordering Messmer and his army to slaughter them all, as revenge for what they did to her village.

I think I'm beginning to understand the saint-pots thing. The Hornsent are trying to reach the gods, their origin seems to be the beastmen of Farum Azula, making the god in question the god of Placidusax, the very god who fled after/before(?) Bayle's betrayal and the revolt amongst the dragons. The way they try to reach their god(s) is through the divine gate, which seems to gather unnatural gold within. The divine gate itself is made from the divine spiral tree, which can be seen depicted in various places around Belurat and the tower, it is a double helix tree (looks like DNA tbh).

Here's the kicker: The tree is made from corpses. literal corpses. It also happens to stand within what looks to me like a crucible and also looks like a colloseum.

So to me, the entire pot thing, is to fertilze their divine spiral tree.

However, the shamans, which are likely Numen, do not belong to this god, if any at all. Obviously, Marika might have an issue with getting sacrificed to a foreign god.

[Sham!]

idk how people look at ds1 dlc and er dlc and go like "yeah, take me back to 2012"

funny enough, people complained about unsatisfactory lore, tanky bossfight and a too erratic movesets for the dlc even back then
we cant escape the circle

[Key]

Originally posted by David_The_Great:

Originally posted by Key:

Lore-wise yes, absolutely. It's the only DLC that manages to retroactively sh*t on a bunch of characters while having an immensely unsatisfying ending.

Which characters are yall talking about? The only one I can think of is Miquella and even that's a stretch.

Malenia, Mohg and Radahn are all relegated to being tools of Miquella with essentially no agency. It makes them appear that much less intimidating and interesting, since their motivation is now "do what Miquella says".

Radahn in particular, is now apparently the "mightiest Demigod" whose track record consists of laying in defeat under Morgott in the opening cinematic, to then losing to Malenia, to then being put down like a rabid dog by the Tarnished, and then being mind controlled by his step-brother. Dude can't catch a break. We fight him twice and both times he isn't even himself.

The Bloody Fingers are now a bunch of morons that follow a guy that's been mentally enslaved by Miquella. Luminary my ass.

Malenia is now confirmed to be completely delusional, and her motivation to kill Radahn now amounts to either jealousy or simply doing Miquella's bidding, both of which make her amount to nothing but a tool.

[hemorrhage911]

Originally posted by Sham!:

idk how people look at ds1 dlc and er dlc and go like "yeah, take me back to 2012"

funny enough, people complained about unsatisfactory lore, tanky bossfight and a too erratic movesets for the dlc even back then
we cant escape the circle

Why not? DS1 DLC lore is just fine - DS1's base game is about the fire and it wrapped up nicely. The DLC is about the dark and the abyss. Wrapped up nicely.

And I don't remember many people complaining about Artorious? That seemed to always be regarded as an epic fight. People complained about Manus because Manus was designed to punish players for what they learned (hugging the boss and being aggressive) - Midir is a similar boss. People complained about these bosses until they realized the strategy.

I don't see any boss like this in ER's DLC. It's just more Malenia, Godfrey's, and Radagon on steroids.

[hemorrhage911]

Originally posted by Key:

Originally posted by David_The_Great:

Which characters are yall talking about? The only one I can think of is Miquella and even that's a stretch.

Malenia, Mohg and Radahn are all relegated to being tools of Miquella with essentially no agency. It makes them appear that much less intimidating and interesting, since their motivation is now "do what Miquella says".

Radahn in particular, is now apparently the "mightiest Demigod" whose track record consists of laying in defeat under Morgott in the opening cinematic, to then losing to Malenia, to then being put down like a rabid dog by the Tarnished, and then being mind controlled by his step-brother. Dude can't catch a break. We fight him twice and both times he isn't even himself.

The Bloody Fingers are now a bunch of morons that follow a guy that's been mentally enslaved by Miquella. Luminary my ass.

Malenia is now confirmed to be completely delusional, and her motivation to kill Radahn now amounts to either jealousy or simply doing Miquella's bidding, both of which make her amount to nothing but a tool.

I will never be able to face Radahn in the base game without thinking about having to face a lesser version of him in the DLC. They ruined the uniqueness of that fight.

An epic character holding back the stars relegated to some useless husk for a child with a crush. What a joke.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by David_The_Great:

Originally posted by Key:

Lore-wise yes, absolutely. It's the only DLC that manages to retroactively sh*t on a bunch of characters while having an immensely unsatisfying ending.

Which characters are yall talking about? The only one I can think of is Miquella and even that's a stretch.

I'd say Mohg, for example, goes from being someone who opportunistically swooped in and potentially ruined some stuff, to a guy who is just "charmed." Brainwaashing narratives are really goofy since you're removing a type of agency from the person while also trying to reveal their true tendencies. The game wants to suggest Mohg wants to sleep with young boys.

I saw someone try to talk about how "8 year olds are sociopaths" and it's just funny because 8 year olds also wouldn't want to ♥♥♥♥ adults, you can't have it both ways lmfao. It's clear that Miquella is a manipulator and the main game always suggested he was capable of it. Particularly the Lily item saying he knew particularly how to engender people's love and admiration of him.

I think that's what would have made, prior to this DLC, Mohg such a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up guy. That he knew precisely how to circumvent that and get what he wanted. Now he's just some brainwashed dude who's creepy, but maybe he kinda sorta didn't mean it but he did hee hee both ways guys, we're having it both ways!

At least that's how I feel about Mohg. The other characters, honestly even what I just explained, all the reasoning seems consistent to me, they're just typically not as interesting outcomes as I personally would have liked. Mohg I feel is arguably a much less interesting character now. Mileage may vary.

[Persona Au Gratin]

Originally posted by Key:

laying in defeat under Morgott in the opening cinematic.

Morgott is so good, unsullied by this DLC.

Originally posted by Sham!:

idk how people look at ds1 dlc and er dlc and go like "yeah, take me back to 2012"

funny enough, people complained about unsatisfactory lore, tanky bossfight and a too erratic movesets for the dlc even back then
we cant escape the circle

Uhhh they definitely "did some things" with that Artorias DLC that was the start of modern From Software combat as we know in these games. Enemies reading inputs to detect healing, aggressive patterns... honestly, I know people who play DS1 to this day who just choose not to go into that area and I do not blame them. It also changed the narrative quite a bit, like things about Artorias were absolutely changed.