Spoilers - Lore Discussion - Is this the worst lore DLC From has made?

[Chris1]

Let's talk the ending boss reveal - Radahn of all people. They ret-conned Malenia saying "promised cohort" to Radahn in their battle, something that has no other reference or hint in the base game. All the most likely theories for why Malenia was fighting Radahn involved her assuming he kidnapped Miquella, or some problem with Radahn holding back stars preventing Miquella from achieving his victories.

This is also somewhat tied into the Amber Starlight, which is found directly in front of a statue of Miquella/Malenia.

St Trina? She apparently is a manifestation of Miquella's love and is left in some cave in the shadow realm. How does that jive with all the other St Trina content, including her proselytizing around the lands between? What is up with St Trina basically killing people who imbibe nectar?

The entire concept of the shadow realm, why did Miquella even need to ascend to the shadow realm? Why is Messmer related and locked there and why did Messmer seal Miquella? These are all children of Marika and yet the story trailer implies these events kicked off Marika's ascension to god-hood, so she was having these kids before that? The timeline doesn't make any sense.

IMO it would have been much cooler if they at least left corroborating hints of all of this in the base game so they could point to a cohesive and consistent narrative, but it's almost like they left everything so intentionally vague and without context that they could do whatever they want in the DLC and just call it a day.

All throughout the DLC I got strong vibes of "they are just making this stuff up and not even trying to make sense" and it kind of ruined the base game lore for me.

[Chibbix]

Originally posted by Neo:

thats true, but miq seemed to be aware of that, no? and was trying to use the eclipse to bring his soul back. and if radahn is like. dead dead when we kill him, how come his soul can come back?

because we never use the rune of death on him after we beat him, and destroy his soul. We take his soul, and could "potentially" do the same thing Miquella does with the walking mausoleum's unwanted children. It's how we get more boss souls:
https://youtu.be/gRUDdeb_jq4?si=OvgEev3ohjo1vcoC

"I bet that was a shocking visual for all those knights outside the mausoleum"

Originally posted by Neo:

not a fan of all the incest ♥♥♥♥ tbh like, there's ways to make people seem flawed or make ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up choices, and it's like. not even needed in miquella's case since he can bewitch people into loving him. like why even throw away st. trina? why not have him try to mind control the tarnished? that'd still work with him as part of the final boss, too.

Well, you gotta remember he's a demigod. He's literally a higher status than the Graced, and they're a higher status than the Tarnished, and anything other than that is sacrilegious to the Erdtree. to give you an idea of how low of breeding stock most of the Lands Between. Could be argued that he is charming the Tarnished, especially because Messmer has him sealed. In theory, if you broke the seal and quit playing because Miquella was too difficult, he literally wins.

Originally posted by Neo:

but like if you MUST. have incest. at least make it make sense yk? like why is radahn the only viable choice? why not malenia? even a mind controlled mohg makes more sense. imo messmer would have even been a much cooler choice, but that's mostly because im bummed that messmer wasn't the end boss. genuinely the most interesting part of the dlc is messmer.

Okay, we'll Melenia would still be incest. Miquella takes St. Trina's body, too, so he's actually both genders, like his mommy/daddy. As for Mohg and Miquella, though, they're both possessed by outer gods, so it wouldn't be a great idea. Same reason why Margott would just not work. Have the Primordial **Crucible god possessing him, even if he ignores it completely and is totally devoted to the Erdtree, it'd still be very risky. I'm not gonna argue with Messmer being the coolest thing about the DLC, though. His little conquest, and his design, the stage he's in, and his rewards from his soul are all easily the coolest parts of the DLC for me. Though seeing the Shaman Village was super cool, too.

[R̷e̷n̷v̷e̷n̷a̷r 💀]

Originally posted by Valthejean:

Originally posted by Chibbix:

He didn't tell Melenia to go fight Radahn. I forget which item, but I really remember one of them saying he "pleaded with her to stay". She was sick of him conquering so much land and then gloating over halting the stars.

I'm definitely going to need a reference for that one. It makes no sense that Miquella, the person who just charmed everyone to get what he wants, would just "plead" with her rather than compel her. Especially because he just discards her completely after getting what he wants. Also, if he didn't order her to attack Radahn, why did she whisper to him "Miquella awaits, O promised consort"

Now ofc that's just interpretation and gussing, but I suppose she could have attacked Radahn cause his gloating and mannerisms were annoying to her or she saw his unstoppable warring as a potential threat (If what the other person said about the item is true. Couldn't find it after a quick search, my bad).

If we go by that and run with it; Malenia is still capable of free will, so what if she didn't say "Miquella awaits, O promised consort" because Miquella ordered her to, but instead she said it in order to spite Radahn in his moment of defeat? Basically BMing our man Radahn.

Miquella, not being on board with her fighting (since he "pleaded with her to stay" - which is also just the phrasing on the item, that was written by some random NPC afterwards. It could be, that he did indeed try to charm her by that and failed due to her strong will) might've just said "Eh alright, plan b it is" and went with Mohg's romance route. which also failed.



All that just feels like copium though, to make it make sense I did like the interpretation from some other thread, that Miquella's true curse might be that none of his plans ever come to fruition, they basically never 'mature' enough and are short-sighted (him remaining physically in a child's body basically just being symbolic). He drops everything on a whim again and again - even though that also feels odd, considering his appearant love for Malenia and Godwyn that we've been witness to in the base game - then again, I suppose all of that could've been misinterpretation by the NPCs writing the in-game items or it could be true, but Miquella still was just a child in the end - plus got rid of his alter ego St. Trina, which is supposed to be his "love". That might've been the catalyst for things to go down as bad as they did. It was already odd reading St. Trina items, how they so obviously charmed people into doing their bidding.


I was so hyped for him, not gonna lie - I thought with him we would finally see a competent determined god (Aside from Ranni), who will do everything possible to find a way to get rid of the outer gods' influences. Because while Ranni does get rid of the two fingers properly, iirc her ending is also governed by another outer god (The Dark Moon). So.... we're basically back in the same sea, just different boat, if we wanna be stingy about it. Might be a nicer outer god, to be fair. There's no winning and true freedom in Fromsoft games

[TonkatsuRamen]

Originally posted by Neo:

Originally posted by Chibbix:

Godwyn's soul is dead, so he can't find a new body for him, like Radahn. His body is still alive, which is why he's twisted into the distorted monstrosity he is.

He probably did want him as his consort, as evident with the St. Trina bit I explained, but was simply unable to do so, so he took Radahn as the next best thing.

thats true, but miq seemed to be aware of that, no? and was trying to use the eclipse to bring his soul back. and if radahn is like. dead dead when we kill him, how come his soul can come back?

not a fan of all the incest ♥♥♥♥ tbh like, there's ways to make people seem flawed or make ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up choices, and it's like. not even needed in miquella's case since he can bewitch people into loving him. like why even throw away st. trina? why not have him try to mind control the tarnished? that'd still work with him as part of the final boss, too.

but like if you MUST. have incest. at least make it make sense yk? like why is radahn the only viable choice? why not malenia? even a mind controlled mohg makes more sense. imo messmer would have even been a much cooler choice, but that's mostly because im bummed that messmer wasn't the end boss. genuinely the most interesting part of the dlc is messmer.

I think we can't judge divine logic with mortal ethics. In general incest is bad because it ruins our gene pool and gives us crippled babies. But we don't know what happens if gods procreate among each other. Maybe for them, it is a completely different thing?

[Mr.America]

Why is everyone so hung up over deific incest? Elden Ring's gods and demigods are aspects of principles, symbolic representations of ideologies. The marriage between gods in this context is not to be confused with actual intercourse and should rather be interpreted as a combination of ideologies. In the case of Miquella and Radhan it's Compassion+War, however silly that sounds.

[Rust Vendor]

I can't be disappointed by the lore because I was never impressed in the first place.

[Chibbix]

Originally posted by Mr.America:

Why is everyone so hung up over deific incest? Elden Ring's gods and demigods are aspects of principles, symbolic representations of ideologies. The marriage between gods in this context is not to be confused with actual intercourse and should rather be interpreted as a combination of ideologies. In the case of Miquella and Radhan it's Compassion+War, however silly that sounds.

To be fair, Miquella did his fair share of conquest and Radahn had his fair share of compassion, I mean just look at how he pushes Leonard under the sand to protect him from us when he starts going all out.

It even looks like Leonard is rearing up/lurching forward and getting ready to try and help his master in phase 2 sometimes, and he still kicks him under the sand like: "no no, little buddy, this ain't your job".

[mpcgannon]

There's a possibility that this lore has been written for years and the DLC simply showed the public.

Are you a rage-aholic?

[Rust Vendor]

Originally posted by TonkatsuRamen:

Originally posted by Neo:

thats true, but miq seemed to be aware of that, no? and was trying to use the eclipse to bring his soul back. and if radahn is like. dead dead when we kill him, how come his soul can come back?

not a fan of all the incest ♥♥♥♥ tbh like, there's ways to make people seem flawed or make ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up choices, and it's like. not even needed in miquella's case since he can bewitch people into loving him. like why even throw away st. trina? why not have him try to mind control the tarnished? that'd still work with him as part of the final boss, too.

but like if you MUST. have incest. at least make it make sense yk? like why is radahn the only viable choice? why not malenia? even a mind controlled mohg makes more sense. imo messmer would have even been a much cooler choice, but that's mostly because im bummed that messmer wasn't the end boss. genuinely the most interesting part of the dlc is messmer.

I think we can't judge divine logic with mortal ethics. In general incest is bad because it ruins our gene pool and gives us crippled babies. But we don't know what happens if gods procreate among each other. Maybe for them, it is a completely different thing?

This is actually a funny but totally accurate point. Incest is only bad for animals because we have genes and you may duplicate diseases. For instance in dog breeding they have a coefficient of inbreeding that can be calculated and you don't need zero, but you do need to screen for disease. What does being related mean to gods, if they don't give birth through mixing of genetics and biology?

[Chibbix]

Originally posted by Valthejean:

Originally posted by Chibbix:

He didn't tell Melenia to go fight Radahn. I forget which item, but I really remember one of them saying he "pleaded with her to stay". She was sick of him conquering so much land and then gloating over halting the stars.

I'm definitely going to need a reference for that one. It makes no sense that Miquella, the person who just charmed everyone to get what he wants, would just "plead" with her rather than compel her. Especially because he just discards her completely after getting what he wants. Also, if he didn't order her to attack Radahn, why did she whisper to him "Miquella awaits, O promised consort"

Yeah, I totally forgot about that on his new helmet, that's just a straight up my b.

Damn, he was a bigger plotter than I originally thought.

[hemorrhage911]

Originally posted by BKo:

That's how I already felt about the base game lore, so I guess I'm vindicated.

Disagree and thought the base game, for the most part, wrapped things up pretty nice and tidy until this DLC blew everything up.

I never understood this fascination with the need to get more of Miquella's story - he was never that intriguing. Child prodigy had a plan and it got blown up by a creeper and now he is in endless slumber. All the DLC did was make his character a complete joke.

[RedEssence]

Originally posted by Chibbix:

Okay, we'll Melenia would still be incest. Miquella takes St. Trina's body, too, so he's actually both genders, like his mommy/daddy.

Well he was, up until he divested himself of St. Trina and abandoned her in a cave

But yeah when I first entered the final boss room and it was radahn I honestly felt disappointed

It was also disappointing that we didn't have the option to side with him

Like you kinda get 2 sides being told in the dlc

St. Trina's side where she thinks Miqeulla's ascension to godhood is bad and she wants you to kill Miquella to free him from the burden of being a god

or you have Miquella's side where he wants to start completely fresh and become a new god instead of inheriting whatever was left over from Marika

Except we only get the choice of kill Miquella

[Valthejean]

Originally posted by hemorrhage911:

Disagree and thought the base game, for the most part, wrapped things up pretty nice and tidy until this DLC blew everything up.

I never understood this fascination with the need to get more of Miquella's story - he was never that intriguing. Child prodigy had a plan and it got blown up by a creeper and now he is in endless slumber. All the DLC did was make his character a complete joke.

I can’t speak for others, but I disagree that he wasn’t intriguing. There was a multitude of things that could have been pursued in the dlc. For example, what was the purpose of the haligtree? (Now it’s utterly pointless because he just has Mohg kidnap him intentionally, rather than Mohg being a free agent to interrupt whatever Miquella was planning.)
What was his attempts to bring back Godwyn? (It definitely feels like this was going to be Fromsoft’s intentions, especially because Godwyn’s knights and his corpse are in the land of shadows, which must have gotten changed at some point in development to Radahn.)

Why was he so against the Golden Order, when we have so many instances of him working with it? He fashioned the unalloyed gold to remove the influence of outer gods, he created spells and gifted them to his father.

There was a lot going for him, especially because he could have been a demigod not directly working against us. (I don’t count Ranni, I hate her ending. We’re essentially rewarding her for breaking the world in the first place just so she can peace off and abandon the lands between.)

[Chibbix]

Originally posted by Valthejean:

Originally posted by hemorrhage911:

Disagree and thought the base game, for the most part, wrapped things up pretty nice and tidy until this DLC blew everything up.

I never understood this fascination with the need to get more of Miquella's story - he was never that intriguing. Child prodigy had a plan and it got blown up by a creeper and now he is in endless slumber. All the DLC did was make his character a complete joke.

I can’t speak for others, but I disagree that he wasn’t intriguing. There was a multitude of things that could have been pursued in the dlc. For example, what was the purpose of the haligtree? (Now it’s utterly pointless because he just has Mohg kidnap him intentionally, rather than Mohg being a free agent to interrupt whatever Miquella was planning.)
What was his attempts to bring back Godwyn? (It definitely feels like this was going to be Fromsoft’s intentions, especially because Godwyn’s knights and his corpse are in the land of shadows, which must have gotten changed at some point in development to Radahn.)

Why was he so against the Golden Order, when we have so many instances of him working with it? He fashioned the unalloyed gold to remove the influence of outer gods, he created spells and gifted them to his father.

There was a lot going for him, especially because he could have been a demigod not directly working against us. (I don’t count Ranni, I hate her ending. We’re essentially rewarding her for breaking the world in the first place just so she can peace off and abandon the lands between.)

Supposedly, there was a cut ending where you could side with Miquella. I don't think he was always against the Golden order. I think he just had to separate from it to create his own "religion". Kinda like how Marika used Godfrey and the Crucible to fight the giants, but bailed on them so hard that she exiled her husband and their king.

Also, I personally believe he's influencing Ranni, and that Ranni is somehow tied to Melina, and the player by association. Spectral steed whistle and the summoning bell are both made of "delicate gold work" as well.

[kermit]

lot of good points ppl bring up that im not able to reply to every single one directly, so all i can say rly is wrt the conversation of: 'why is everyone hung up on the incest part'?

well every time you say 'it's not technically incest' that's not great. incest isnt just a 'genetic problem' (adoptive siblings are still siblings and it'd still be incest, cmon now), it's an abuse problem, because instances of incest always happen in an abusive context (either abuser on victim, forced union between two victims, or maladaptive trauma response between two victims).
and generally, incest as an indicator of 'this person is bad/corrupted' is lazy af. like do we really need a 'commentary' on the politics of feudal families using incest AGAIN? (and both instances of 'gay' in the narrative being incestuous and morally messed up is... a whole other can of worms) (if you take the bewitchment into account, it kinda makes miq also into a rapist if he's using his power to bewitch radahn into being his consort, so that's also lazy as hell. rape as a tool to show someone is 'bad' is pretty cheap and just bad writing, esp when it isnt even relevant).

like idk man, grrms obsession rubbing off on miyazaki is boring as hell as a narrative tool, when there's a lot of other ways to talk about corruption and morality. like we get it, 'incest baaaaad', can you be a bit more original?

miq being corrupted by his own ambition, having ideas of grandeur, thinking he's the only one that can fix things and repeating mistakes of the past ect. is just a more compelling narrative to show miq not actually being Wholly Good, and the whole 'he wants to have sex with his brother' cherry on top just cheapens it all.

it all just comes across as 'damn we couldn't think of a way to justify fighting miquella at the end of the dlc so we character assassinated everyone we could to make it happen'. bad writing.

[Eren Jäger]

Originally posted by Valthejean:

Originally posted by hemorrhage911:

Disagree and thought the base game, for the most part, wrapped things up pretty nice and tidy until this DLC blew everything up.

I never understood this fascination with the need to get more of Miquella's story - he was never that intriguing. Child prodigy had a plan and it got blown up by a creeper and now he is in endless slumber. All the DLC did was make his character a complete joke.

I can’t speak for others, but I disagree that he wasn’t intriguing. There was a multitude of things that could have been pursued in the dlc. For example, what was the purpose of the haligtree? (Now it’s utterly pointless because he just has Mohg kidnap him intentionally, rather than Mohg being a free agent to interrupt whatever Miquella was planning.)
What was his attempts to bring back Godwyn? (It definitely feels like this was going to be Fromsoft’s intentions, especially because Godwyn’s knights and his corpse are in the land of shadows, which must have gotten changed at some point in development to Radahn.)

Why was he so against the Golden Order, when we have so many instances of him working with it? He fashioned the unalloyed gold to remove the influence of outer gods, he created spells and gifted them to his father.

There was a lot going for him, especially because he could have been a demigod not directly working against us. (I don’t count Ranni, I hate her ending. We’re essentially rewarding her for breaking the world in the first place just so she can peace off and abandon the lands between.)

Miquella was loyal to Marika for a long time. But he turned against the golden order because he felt betrayed by it. He thought Marika, The fingers, the greater will could save Malenia, but they couldn't. From this point on, he believed that Marika's rule was unjust and a lie. That all of their actions were in reality treachery and were only responsible for suffering and chaos. Hence his desire to create a new order. An age of compassion.