The DLC is not overtuned, you are undertuned (in the head)

[Sloop]

Not engaging with the many various tools and RPG mechanics to solve problems and just expecting to swing/dodge through everything isn't a playstyle or a demonstration of skill, it's just a demonstration of severe scarlet brain rot.

DLC is tuned with defensive buffs from faith, consumables, talismans in mind. With offensive buffs in mind. With exploiting bosses elemental/status weaknesses in mind. With the fact that spirit summons exist.

Playing the DLC like it's Dark Souls 1, where you just show up with no preparation and expect to R1 dodge dodge R1 until you win is just a "brainrot" challenge run. In previous souls games buffs/consumables were "extra" but not required. In Elden Ring they're clearly considered when tuning encounters so everyone should use them to succeed.

With no preparation a boss might 1 - 2 shot you. WIth actually engaging with the game mechanics the bosses hit for like 15-20% of your HP bar.

AoE attacks can be jumped over easily, you get like 60 frames of invincibility to your lower body, rolling everything is overrated. Jumping is underused by players and then they go surprised pikachu face when they get hit out of a dodge by an attack that could have been avoided by jumping. Jump is just as important as roll.

Buy Boiled Crab and get Golden Vow for insane def boost. Element specific talismans and defensive buffs exist. Get wrecked by Holy Damage? Buff against it. Porblem solved.

You're in the endgame, how about instead of overleveling your DEX to 99 for your weeb stick consider dropping a bit of wasted levels and getting your Faith to 25-30 for buffs, just a suggestion.

It's an open world RPG with crafting and consumables and buffs and hundreds of ways to solve problems, it's completely the players fault for being set in their ways and expecting the game to cater to their "playstyle" when the playstyle ignores all those options.

BTW final boss can be parried easily, try it (seriously).

[Chocos Ramabotti]

Цитата допису Pliauskis:

Цитата допису Chocos Ramabotti:

No one ever has to learn bosses, not even in the DLC, just use Mimic Tear and big laser - instant win. So when someone is taking OP advice to the ultimate conclusion, that's the way how you "should" win, simply preparing to use what works best and what always works best is distracting the boss with spirit summons and then blasting them away with spells. You don't need to learn any boss pattern that way, but does it still feels great...? Well probably for at least 75% of all players, who don't think about how overcoming genuine challenge should feel like.

So obviously the problem is simply that the game is largely unbalanced and especially unfriendly towards players who want to have an fair and reasonable challenge, it's like you have to "find" a way how to coquer the bosses that it doesn't feel frustrating, but also not too easy.

So at one point you have to somehow find out that you are still too weak when you don't use the broken stuff, but if you try to utilize everything the game has to offer you still have to restrict yourself.

This is neither an satisfying Action- nor a rewarding roleplaying experience. It just sucks for every player who has standards.

Either learn each fight to perfection or use all the tools available, yes.

The bar for what you need as a regular player to just "get through" the content is now higher and since people got too comfortable ignoring half the tools available in the base game are now in for a rough time.

Maybe it hurts your ego to realize that you weren't as good at the game as you thought?

Haven't you read properly? My problem is the extreme whiplash. If I take your advice to the ultima ratio, every boss becomes trivial I don't even need to dodge them anymore.

But if I should play how it feels "right to me" I first have to find out when this point is reached. That's not good game design. You're saying "git gud" but basically I don't have to, the game can completely broken on a whim if I want, Mimic Tear is still carrying you through everything. Everyone knows this, yet they have to self-restrain not to do that.

Those people who self-restrain themselves not cheesing bosses, these are the ones who suffer, because the bosses no longer feel "fun" to fight. Yes they are hard, but not in a fun way.

[paincanbefun]

hard does not mean bad design or lazy design

if people said "this is hard for me", "i find this tedious", or "i didn't have fun" instead of "this game has objectively poor design, from a technical perspective" it would not sound half as whiny because it wouldn't sound like the random ass person was claiming to have professional level insights

"overtuned" is a good word, but so is "white knight". they refer to real things, they are just usually used because the person is projecting their own issues

[Get Out]

The problem is the people's mentality, not the game itself. The base game started hard but over time people farmed their way to the end, and the challenge felt less and less noticeable. The game is 2 years old now, so we've seen everything and get used to it by now. The DLC however presents a brand new set of challenges and people get so comfy with their used strategies and builds they kinda forget how to play the game. They still think they can 1 shot bosses or just get away with their used strats. This DLC forces people out of their comfort zone in the best way possible.

[Ashenran]

Цитата допису Chocos Ramabotti:

Цитата допису Pliauskis:

Either learn each fight to perfection or use all the tools available, yes.

The bar for what you need as a regular player to just "get through" the content is now higher and since people got too comfortable ignoring half the tools available in the base game are now in for a rough time.

Maybe it hurts your ego to realize that you weren't as good at the game as you thought?

Haven't you read properly? My problem is the extreme whiplash. If I take your advice to the ultima ratio, every boss becomes trivial I don't even need to dodge them anymore.

But if I should play how it feels "right to me" I first have to find out when this point is reached. That's not good game design. You're saying "git gud" but basically don't have to, the game can completely breaked on a whim if I want, everyone knows this, yet they have to self-restrain not to do that. Those people self-restrain themselves not cheesing bosses, these are the ones who suffer, because the bosses no longer feel "fun" to fight. Yes they are hard, but not in a fun way.

they are clearly fun and i finally can play bleed and frost without two shoting it and learning how they work and all, and restraining in the main game buy not leveluping is a part of the fun through.
You're ego is hurted that's all.

[Sloop]

Цитата допису Corporal Shephard:

Цитата допису Pliauskis:

I'm to lazy to go point by point, but I don't see where I'm contradicting myself. My whole point is that the game provides many different tools and players refuse to use them to adapt. Supplementing/tweaking your existing build with extra buffs, consumables, etc. doesn't force your samurai to go full fingerprint tank.

Also I didn't say dodging is wrong, I'm saying ONLY dodging without using other mechanics is bad if you're struggling to get your first boss kill. Of course it is. Relying on 1 defensive tactic when you have 4 possible ones is more challenging for no reason. Buffing and using talismans/consumables to turn 1 shot into a 2 shot is very useful also.

Also, what this "playstyle" thing even is? A boss is a puzzle to solve, you adjust, adapt to it. If what you're doing doesn't work, try something else. As Bruce Lee said "Be like water, my friend".

P.S. What preparation did Artorias need? It's quite the quintessential "dodge R1" fight of souls games.

A boss is not your traditional puzzle. You can defeat the boss with multiple strategies. Playstyle is basically your way of leveling up your attributes and building your character. A melee build or a mage build is a playstyle. Spamming certain movesets and cheesing it is not a playstyle.

The contradiction happens when you defy the freedom of character building and saying debuff your one attribute and invest in other. While this does make sense to a certain degree, optional content should not manipulate your gameplay too much when you have to redistribute a couple of your attributes instead of just one specific. This doesn't even work in the DLC because it has it's own difficulty scale. Investing in physical attributes will not be helpful, debuffing them to buff other stats will force your gameplay style to change, which is a bad design decision if I have to make drastic changes to my play style. If there are hundreds of ways to solve problems, then surely there should be a way for a mage to finish the DLC content. Adopting is fine and it should be mandatory, the problem starts when you have to make drastic changes to your play style which this DLC basically forces you to do so.

Artorias was extremely aggresive, you had to keep up your stamina high to evade his insane combos. You had to catch up to him to prevent his transformation which depletes your stamina. Melee build was a nightmare in this fight. Using stamina restoration buffs was basically mandatory unless you invested significantly in the endurance. He was also fast which means you had to either increase your equipment load with a ring to use better armor or use a ring to buff your health bar if you did a melee build. Someone might have finished it without any buffs or help but this doesn't change the fact that Artorias required prep for many players. It is not your normal boss, both gameplay and lore wise.

Have you considered that there's a way for a mage to finish the content but you just haven't found it yet yourself? Maybe what worked for you in base game doesn't work anymore? Sounds to me like you're set in your ways and are annoyed that those ways are challenged.

Artorias didn't need any buffs or anything lol, just dodge and R1, what are you actually talking about.

[Ashenran]

they don't know what they are talking about because they want the one shopt OP build xD

[Sloop]

Цитата допису Chocos Ramabotti:

Цитата допису Pliauskis:

Either learn each fight to perfection or use all the tools available, yes.

The bar for what you need as a regular player to just "get through" the content is now higher and since people got too comfortable ignoring half the tools available in the base game are now in for a rough time.

Maybe it hurts your ego to realize that you weren't as good at the game as you thought?

Haven't you read properly? My problem is the extreme whiplash. If I take your advice to the ultima ratio, every boss becomes trivial I don't even need to dodge them anymore.

But if I should play how it feels "right to me" I first have to find out when this point is reached. That's not good game design. You're saying "git gud" but basically I don't have to, the game can completely broken on a whim if I want, Mimic Tear is still carrying you through everything. Everyone knows this, yet they have to self-restrain not to do that.

Those people who self-restrain themselves not cheesing bosses, these are the ones who suffer, because the bosses no longer feel "fun" to fight. Yes they are hard, but not in a fun way.

My entire thread is that people who want to get through the DLC and are incapable of doing it and complaining about it are ignoring ways to beat it. What does it have to do with people who want to self challenge themselves? This discussion isn't even about you lol.

[Holken]

Not allowing players to play the game how they want to is bad game design. If I decide it would be cooler to not use summons then I should be reasonably able to not use summons. If I wanted to not coop (main mechanic) in any previous game I could and there wasn't a single boss where i felt like I needed coop to win.

I'm not playing a faith character so I can't defense buff. I'm not using perfumes because they're grindy and FAR out of the way. Every single game has talisman balance in mind, why even mention them? I can't exploit some of these weaknesses because my I'm not built around them whatsoever and I would have to backtrack really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hard to get them. Should I be punished for not shilling out an extra hour before every fight to grab a bunch of clutter around the map? ♥♥♥♥ no.

If every other games formula worked and was beloved then why introduce a bunch of boring grinding and the need to spend a minute buffing before every fight? If they're really tuning these fights for stuff like this then why are some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ using these things while others are still frustratingly difficult?

Not all AoE's are made equal. Plenty of them have lingering frames, nondescript start and end times, cant be jumped at all (they love applying this at random), hang for long time before start, etc. "Surprised pikachu" go back to reddit.

I should not have to buff for 30-60 seconds before every fight.

All of my stats are spread well and I'm wearing things appropriate for my level. Nothing is passed hard cap.

This is not about catering this is about minor adjustments to the damage, negation, and total health pool of some of the more egregious bosses. There is literally no reason for people to be riding ER this hard. The devs are not infallible, the numbers are not perfect, the game has plenty of issues and plenty of ideas made boring due to poor boss stat adjustment.

If I wanted something that was super difficult with a lot of grind I'd go play Terraria Calamity Revengeance mode. I come to Elden Ring for the same reason I came to every previous game. For the amazing storytelling, the fun gameplay, and the experience of it. Elden Ring unlike others, has repayed me with unnecessary frustration and incredibly boring, drawn out fights where instead of thinking "damn I wanna do that again" like no hit Gael and Midir, I think "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ glad that's over, don't want to do that again." That goes for the easy fights and the hard fights. It's a slog.

[Chocos Ramabotti]

Цитата допису Ashenran:

Цитата допису Chocos Ramabotti:

Haven't you read properly? My problem is the extreme whiplash. If I take your advice to the ultima ratio, every boss becomes trivial I don't even need to dodge them anymore.

But if I should play how it feels "right to me" I first have to find out when this point is reached. That's not good game design. You're saying "git gud" but basically don't have to, the game can completely breaked on a whim if I want, everyone knows this, yet they have to self-restrain not to do that. Those people self-restrain themselves not cheesing bosses, these are the ones who suffer, because the bosses no longer feel "fun" to fight. Yes they are hard, but not in a fun way.

they are clearly fun and i finally can play bleed and frost without two shoting it and learning how they work and all, and restraining in the main game buy not leveluping is a part of the fun through.
You're ego is hurted that's all.

If you play bleed build, you already trivialize bosses all the time from beginning. So you're that kind of person who basically cheeses the game and says "it's fun" yeah, because it 10x times easier for you then for everyone else,
because you cheese the game with broken builds.
So FromSoft adjusted the bosses that they become much harder so that now your broken build makes the fights now "fairly easy" not "trivial easy" but everyone else who plays fair and square from the beginning the bosses become from "extremely hard" to "masochistic pattern memorization".

That's what I mean there is a gulf between players cheesing mechanics and those who avoid every meta cheese build from the internet. You are not in the position of others, so you cannot relate with that. I could easily beat the bosses with your build approach, but it would feel meaningless to me, because I don't need to learn and play with the bosses on a fundamental level anymore than, yet interacting with them is kinda tedious cause FromSoft has exaggerated with the anime movement and attack style of them. so it becomes a puzzle how to maximize my fun and find the right amount of challenge, but that should be the job of the developers.

[Ashenran]

Цитата допису Holken:

Not allowing players to play the game how they want to is bad game design. If I decide it would be cooler to not use summons then I should be reasonably able to not use summons. If I wanted to not coop (main mechanic) in any previous game I could and there wasn't a single boss where i felt like I needed coop to win.

I'm not playing a faith character so I can't defense buff. I'm not using perfumes because they're grindy and FAR out of the way. Every single game has talisman balance in mind, why even mention them? I can't exploit some of these weaknesses because my I'm not built around them whatsoever and I would have to backtrack really ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hard to get them. Should I be punished for not shilling out an extra hour before every fight to grab a bunch of clutter around the map? ♥♥♥♥ no.

If every other games formula worked and was beloved then why introduce a bunch of boring grinding and the need to spend a minute buffing before every fight? If they're really tuning these fights for stuff like this then why are some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ using these things while others are still frustratingly difficult?

Not all AoE's are made equal. Plenty of them have lingering frames, nondescript start and end times, cant be jumped at all (they love applying this at random), hang for long time before start, etc. "Surprised pikachu" go back to reddit.

I should not have to buff for 30-60 seconds before every fight.

All of my stats are spread well and I'm wearing things appropriate for my level. Nothing is passed hard cap.

This is not about catering this is about minor adjustments to the damage, negation, and total health pool of some of the more egregious bosses. There is literally no reason for people to be riding ER this hard. The devs are not infallible, the numbers are not perfect, the game has plenty of issues and plenty of ideas made boring due to poor boss stat adjustment.

If I wanted something that was super difficult with a lot of grind I'd go play Terraria Calamity Revengeance mode. I come to Elden Ring for the same reason I came to every previous game. For the amazing storytelling, the fun gameplay, and the experience of it. Elden Ring unlike others, has repayed me with unnecessary frustration and incredibly boring, drawn out fights where instead of thinking "damn I wanna do that again" like no hit Gael and Midir, I think "♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ glad that's over, don't want to do that again." That goes for the easy fights and the hard fights. It's a slog.

Just use blessing. And as buff i use only the heal so... git gud again.

Why did so much ego people have been hurt

[Sloop]

Puts imaginary self restrictions.

Calls it "my playstyle"

Those restrictions make it too hard.

Cries.

"Damn Counter Strike with a mouse is too easy, I wanna reach top rank with laptop touchpad, the game is poorly designed if i can't"

[Corporal Shephard]

Цитата допису Pliauskis:

Цитата допису Corporal Shephard:

A boss is not your traditional puzzle. You can defeat the boss with multiple strategies. Playstyle is basically your way of leveling up your attributes and building your character. A melee build or a mage build is a playstyle. Spamming certain movesets and cheesing it is not a playstyle.

The contradiction happens when you defy the freedom of character building and saying debuff your one attribute and invest in other. While this does make sense to a certain degree, optional content should not manipulate your gameplay too much when you have to redistribute a couple of your attributes instead of just one specific. This doesn't even work in the DLC because it has it's own difficulty scale. Investing in physical attributes will not be helpful, debuffing them to buff other stats will force your gameplay style to change, which is a bad design decision if I have to make drastic changes to my play style. If there are hundreds of ways to solve problems, then surely there should be a way for a mage to finish the DLC content. Adopting is fine and it should be mandatory, the problem starts when you have to make drastic changes to your play style which this DLC basically forces you to do so.

Artorias was extremely aggresive, you had to keep up your stamina high to evade his insane combos. You had to catch up to him to prevent his transformation which depletes your stamina. Melee build was a nightmare in this fight. Using stamina restoration buffs was basically mandatory unless you invested significantly in the endurance. He was also fast which means you had to either increase your equipment load with a ring to use better armor or use a ring to buff your health bar if you did a melee build. Someone might have finished it without any buffs or help but this doesn't change the fact that Artorias required prep for many players. It is not your normal boss, both gameplay and lore wise.

Have you considered that there's a way for a mage to finish the content but you just haven't found it yet yourself? Maybe what worked for you in base game doesn't work anymore? Sounds to me like you're set in your ways and are annoyed that those ways are challenged.

Artorias didn't need any buffs or anything lol, just dodge and R1, what are you actually talking about.

I am not doing a mage build, so your interpretation is wrong. I started with a vagabond build and did my adjustments to handle the DLC. Those adjustments were to adjust intelligence, switching to lighter weapons to not deplete my stamina too much in boss fights, increasing the arcane a bit if I ever decide to use a couple of spells or a bleed weapon, focusing on more defense oriented talismans and improve my roll and dodge timings to have easier time with the enemies. I am not annoyed at being challenged either, that is what I found appealing in souls games and I will play them as much as I enjoy in the future. Consider your assumptions more carefully when you are challenged with your opinions.

LOL why do you insist on just your interpretation of Artorias? Just drop it, many normal people had to use certain buffs to have easier time. Not everyone has to devote hours to beat him. Just accept that this is the general approach that many people used and move on. Just because you beat him without any buffs doesn't mean that every other person can. He was aggro, fast and very different from the bosses in the main campaign. The closer was Gwyn but that was way easier when you can parry his attacks and do critical.

[Sloop]

Цитата допису Corporal Shephard:

Цитата допису Pliauskis:

Have you considered that there's a way for a mage to finish the content but you just haven't found it yet yourself? Maybe what worked for you in base game doesn't work anymore? Sounds to me like you're set in your ways and are annoyed that those ways are challenged.

Artorias didn't need any buffs or anything lol, just dodge and R1, what are you actually talking about.

I am not doing a mage build, so your interpretation is wrong. I started with a vagabond build and did my adjustments to handle the DLC. Those adjustments were to adjust intelligence, switching to lighter weapons to not deplete my stamina too much in boss fights, increasing the arcane a bit if I ever decide to use a couple of spells or a bleed weapon and focusing on more defense oriented talismans and improve my roll and dodge timings to have easier time with the enemies. I am not annoyed at being challenged either, that is what I found appealing in souls games and I will play them as much as I enjoy in the future. Consider your assumptions more carefully when you are challenged with your opinions.

LOL why do you insist on just your interpretation of Artorias? Just drop it, many normal people had to use certain buffs to have easier time. Not everyone has to devote hours to beat him. Just accept that this is the general approach that many people used and move on. Just because you beat him without any buffs doesn't mean that every other person can. He was aggro, fast and very different from the bosses in the main campaign. The closer was Gwyn but that was way easier when you can parry his attacks and do critical.

So you were arguing against adapting and changing and now you say that what you did in DLC was to adapt and change. Sounds like a contradiction to me.

Btw, where's your statistics and data of what people use for Artorias?

[Yok 2D God]

LMAO thanks OP, it was fun seeing some of these smooth brains get utterly cooked in this thread.

[Corporal Shephard]

Цитата допису Pliauskis:

Цитата допису Corporal Shephard:

I am not doing a mage build, so your interpretation is wrong. I started with a vagabond build and did my adjustments to handle the DLC. Those adjustments were to adjust intelligence, switching to lighter weapons to not deplete my stamina too much in boss fights, increasing the arcane a bit if I ever decide to use a couple of spells or a bleed weapon and focusing on more defense oriented talismans and improve my roll and dodge timings to have easier time with the enemies. I am not annoyed at being challenged either, that is what I found appealing in souls games and I will play them as much as I enjoy in the future. Consider your assumptions more carefully when you are challenged with your opinions.

LOL why do you insist on just your interpretation of Artorias? Just drop it, many normal people had to use certain buffs to have easier time. Not everyone has to devote hours to beat him. Just accept that this is the general approach that many people used and move on. Just because you beat him without any buffs doesn't mean that every other person can. He was aggro, fast and very different from the bosses in the main campaign. The closer was Gwyn but that was way easier when you can parry his attacks and do critical.

Btw, where's your statistics and data of what people use for Artorias?

So you were arguing against adapting and changing and now you say that what you did in DLC was to adapt and change. Sounds like a contradiction to me.

I am not against adapting and changing, I am against the idea that adapting and changing should be drastic like debuffing your main attributes to invest in other ones. Don't simplify my points.

About Artorias, I just checked the forums and comment sections of YouTube videos to have an idea how did people fight him and many people mentioned using stamina defense buffs.