You can't learn a boss by fighting them anymore

[Chris1]

Playing the DLC more and this sticks out to me. You can't really learn the bosses by fighting them anymore. All the DLC bosses follow all the same trends - infinite poise, multiple hit endless combos, wide AoE attacks that have small dodge windows, ability to instantly teleport exactly to where the player is - and most attacks are enough to one or two shot the player. The DLC is basically an exercise in running back to the enemy that killed you and hoping to learn a single attack and then rinse and repeat.

It's really just an exercise in bashing your head against the wall over and over. Bosses in souls games didn't use to be like this. Orphan of Kos is one of my favorite bosses of all time, and you could actually learn his moves as the fight went on. Same with Dancer of Boreal Valley and Slave Knight Gael. Go back and revisit those fights and it was more of a chess match where you could learn and adapt during the fight as it was going on.

The Elden Ring "difficulty" mainly just comes from multiple attacks strung together with hyper aggression and those attacks basically designed to one-shot the player with little to no predictability and no ability to use basic tools such as distance management or poise breaking - fundamental game play concepts. What happened From Soft? It's fine in small doses, but when it's your only trick for every single boss, it's just lacking.

Just go through the DLC and count how many enemies have these attributes - wide AoE, endless multiple-hit combos, infinite poise, ability to teleport exactly where you are negating any distance management, and how many attacks can one/two shot you.

We can all "git gud" but if the way to do it is like this, is it really fun? I think FromSoft hyper focused on giving a challenge to "die hard players" and forgot to actually make a fun game. It's disappointing because most of the content between the ridiculous boss fights is actually a lot of fun.

[SecretDragonSludge (Drugs)]

Originally posted by Roy:

The souls franchise used to be a very punishing RPG with very dangerous bosses, who you COULD clear on the first run if you were careful/skillful.
It was hard, but fair, every death was a learning oppurtunity and it felt like "oh okay that won't happen next time".

Fast forward to DS3&Elden Ring, where the fanbase has been actively gaslighting Miyazaki the game should be as frustrating as possible, because they keep telling themselves and eachother that "it's too easy" as a weird flex.
Long spammy combo's with only one or two short timeframes to counter strongly decreased the amount of ways in how you can deal with bosses.
Meta builds are more prevalent than ever and some weapons can only effectively be used in a jump attack before the boss repeats his cycle.

Don't mention this though, people get REALLY upset when you do.

I've never had trouble with it. These bosses could be harder Miyazaki. Miyazaki I want a boss that will kill me in real life if I lose to them

[Sgt. Flaw]

Originally posted by Roy:

The souls franchise used to be a very punishing RPG with very dangerous bosses, who you COULD clear on the first run if you were careful/skillful.
It was hard, but fair, every death was a learning oppurtunity and it felt like "oh okay that won't happen next time".

Fast forward to DS3&Elden Ring, where the fanbase has been actively gaslighting Miyazaki the game should be as frustrating as possible, because they keep telling themselves and eachother that "it's too easy" as a weird flex.
Long spammy combo's with only one or two short timeframes to counter strongly decreased the amount of ways in how you can deal with bosses.
Meta builds are more prevalent than ever and some weapons can only effectively be used in a jump attack before the boss repeats his cycle.

Don't mention this though, people get REALLY upset when you do.

It's still learnable tho...just harder...telegraphed moves blend into each other more and are hard to distinguish. I think I had the easiest time with DS 1...DS 3 gave me ♥♥♥♥ with ER's base game being a bit easier(with no summons)...The DLC is a monster...it's all there tho and these bosses where tested a tried...At first it seems impossible then you start seeing the patterns and the intended opportunities to punish....the trick openings that arn't meant for punishing and the difference between all the spinny moves.

Miyazaki did deliver and he didn't just choreograph some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to each boss and said "here" you figure it out.

[Roy]

Originally posted by Sgt. Flaw:

Originally posted by Roy:

The souls franchise used to be a very punishing RPG with very dangerous bosses, who you COULD clear on the first run if you were careful/skillful.
It was hard, but fair, every death was a learning oppurtunity and it felt like "oh okay that won't happen next time".

Fast forward to DS3&Elden Ring, where the fanbase has been actively gaslighting Miyazaki the game should be as frustrating as possible, because they keep telling themselves and eachother that "it's too easy" as a weird flex.
Long spammy combo's with only one or two short timeframes to counter strongly decreased the amount of ways in how you can deal with bosses.
Meta builds are more prevalent than ever and some weapons can only effectively be used in a jump attack before the boss repeats his cycle.

Don't mention this though, people get REALLY upset when you do.

It's still learnable tho...just harder...telegraphed moves blend into each other more and are hard to distinguish. I think I had the easiest time with DS 1...DS 3 gave me ♥♥♥♥ with ER's base game being a bit easier(with no summons)...The DLC is a monster...it's all there tho and these bosses where tested a tried...At first it seems impossible then you start seeing the patterns and the intended opportunities to punish....the trick openings that arn't meant for punishing and the difference between all the spinny moves.

Miyazaki did deliver and he didn't just choreograph some ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to each boss and said "here" you figure it out.

Yeah fair enough, i guess i just strongly prefer the original difficulty and don't feel the need to keep turning it up.
I don't want it to be a cakewalk with heavily telegraphed moves, it should feel like a close victory when you do a boss in on the first try, but a fair lesson for the next attempt if you die.
I feel like you now have to die for every new move as there is little to no room for error, as "one" attack from a boss is generally now a flurry of many attacks.

Trial and error remains, but you can now learn 5~10% of a boss' moveset as opposed to 25~100% in the original games.
(This is what it FEELS like to me, inb4 some "git gud" warrior raging at these numbers).

[Haru]

Enemies in Dark Souls move with tanky controls, much like the player.

Starting with Bloodborne-ish, the player suddenly got a massive buff, and while a lot of bosses retained tank controls, the player character was a marvel hero by comparison.

Since Dark Souls 3, the player is so capable in terms of what they're able to do, that bosses had to be made less janky in order to compensate. Now there's a lot less watching asylum demon butt slam the ground and more responding to a bombardment of holy lights chasing you if you try to cheese an Erdtree Guardian.

[D. Flame]

Originally posted by Haru:

Enemies in Dark Souls move with tanky controls, much like the player.

Starting with Bloodborne-ish, the player suddenly got a massive buff, and while a lot of bosses retained tank controls, the player character was a marvel hero by comparison.

Since Dark Souls 3, the player is so capable in terms of what they're able to do, that bosses had to be made less janky in order to compensate. Now there's a lot less watching asylum demon butt slam the ground and more responding to a bombardment of holy lights chasing you if you try to cheese an Erdtree Guardian.

False. In BB, both the player and the enemies are equally as fast. This is part of why it is so well liked.

[Yuki Terumi]

Bosses are definitely learnable, it's just that it takes a bit longer to do so due to the margins for error being slimmer. Made a mistake / unsure what to do about a particular string/attack sequence? Die and start the fight over.

Plenty of bosses opening 2nd phase with an attack/sequence that will kill you. Die until you learn how to deal with it.

Die until you figure out all the heal/roll frame traps.

I didnt really notice this much in the base game except with waterfowl dance, which was die and start the fight over until you learned how to deal with it.


So you can absolutely learn them, its just that there are sequences to where the wrong answer leads to starting the entire fight over which just increases the amount of time it takes. You'll eventually find the right answers.

[Mehermagerk]

Originally posted by Yuki Terumi:

Bosses are definitely learnable, it's just that it takes a bit longer to do so due to the margins for error being slimmer. Made a mistake / unsure what to do about a particular string/attack sequence? Die and start the fight over.

Plenty of bosses opening 2nd phase with an attack/sequence that will kill you. Die until you learn how to deal with it.

Die until you figure out all the heal/roll frame traps.

I didnt really notice this much in the base game except with waterfowl dance, which was die and start the fight over until you learned how to deal with it.


So you can absolutely learn them, its just that there are sequences to where the wrong answer leads to starting the entire fight over which just increases the amount of time it takes. You'll eventually find the right answers.

Ya but that makes the fights tedious and starts becoming not fun quick when every mistake results in death it’s why this DLC is getting such backlash I have beat the DLC and honestly didn’t enjoy a single boss fight besides Mesmer.

[Lichlord9333]

Those stripped of the Grace of Gold shall all meet death, In the embrace of Messmer's flame.

[Haru]

Got Messmer in roughly an hour-ish. Not sure how many tries, I don't count while learning a boss. He's a bit like Malenia in some ways, only without the WFD nonsense.

His huge attack where he stabs you from the air can be dodged and blocked, or a combination of both.

Most of his attacks have massive wind ups and tells. You can posture break him by shield charging on the end of his combos without taking much damage, provided you have the endurance.

Fire resistance helps a lot.

The grab is honestly amazing, because whenever you avoid his grab, it leaves you time to heal up or punish the heck out of him.

During phase two, his only threatening attack is the malenia clon- I mean uh, numerous thrashing snake attack. Deal with that and he's full of openings from phase one, and the snake's three hit combo also leaves you with downtime to attack. Sometimes when he's transforming back, you can start your wind up or charge attack and smack him into oblivion.

He's awesome!

[Ardbug]

Whoever made the curseblades should be fired, I can beat them easily on my STR guy, but my mage just doesnt have a single chance, no openings, my hardest hitting night comet does 15% to him, then its game over, this enemy singlehandedly killed the mage class.

[Nauct]

Originally posted by Key:

Originally posted by Nauct:

Ok well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqcofVw_1Ts I'm clearing the DLC no Scadoos RL1. So it's more than fair

I'm sorry but beating one NPC that uses a simple moveset doesn't exactly prove anything.

We'll talk when you get to the real bosses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cp5lz-_zhSk One rememberance boss down