You can't learn a boss by fighting them anymore

[Chris1]

Playing the DLC more and this sticks out to me. You can't really learn the bosses by fighting them anymore. All the DLC bosses follow all the same trends - infinite poise, multiple hit endless combos, wide AoE attacks that have small dodge windows, ability to instantly teleport exactly to where the player is - and most attacks are enough to one or two shot the player. The DLC is basically an exercise in running back to the enemy that killed you and hoping to learn a single attack and then rinse and repeat.

It's really just an exercise in bashing your head against the wall over and over. Bosses in souls games didn't use to be like this. Orphan of Kos is one of my favorite bosses of all time, and you could actually learn his moves as the fight went on. Same with Dancer of Boreal Valley and Slave Knight Gael. Go back and revisit those fights and it was more of a chess match where you could learn and adapt during the fight as it was going on.

The Elden Ring "difficulty" mainly just comes from multiple attacks strung together with hyper aggression and those attacks basically designed to one-shot the player with little to no predictability and no ability to use basic tools such as distance management or poise breaking - fundamental game play concepts. What happened From Soft? It's fine in small doses, but when it's your only trick for every single boss, it's just lacking.

Just go through the DLC and count how many enemies have these attributes - wide AoE, endless multiple-hit combos, infinite poise, ability to teleport exactly where you are negating any distance management, and how many attacks can one/two shot you.

We can all "git gud" but if the way to do it is like this, is it really fun? I think FromSoft hyper focused on giving a challenge to "die hard players" and forgot to actually make a fun game. It's disappointing because most of the content between the ridiculous boss fights is actually a lot of fun.

[M0S5Y.ctn]

It does speak volumes that the current reception of the DLC is mixed. Granted, a fair bit of those are performance issues, but the majority of reviews is not vibing with the design philosophies of the bosses. No other FromSoft game actually had this occurrence where mountains of people are criticizing not that bosses are HARD but that their THEIR DESIGN PRINCIPLES are acutely unfun.

It's not that they're difficult, it's that they are difficult in ways that feel artificial and frustrating, compared to their other games. They spent so much time trying to push the envelope to achieve peak difficulty that it seems like they didn't bother at all to ask themselves if their fights are still fun. I have 600 hours in ER but the bosses are my least favourite aspect of the game by orders of magnitude.
(Side note: if even the speedrun and challenge run community routinely points out how badly designed many of the bosses are, you know something's going on.)

And it's not like the "git gud" crowd is wrong, you can still get good and learn the bosses and do hitless runs if you put in the time - the problem is that all the 7+ combo strings, teleports, attack holding, insane staggering, mixing up patterns mid combo and copious amounts of input read combined with the massive damage output make the fights not feel fun. You don't feel good when a boss dies, instead you're happy that this ordeal is over, so you can go back to enjoying the game until you encounter the next boss and it repeats again.

There are so many elements in Elden Ring's boss design that work to accomplish nothing but agitate you, and it's a damn shame. But I'm also glad that people are realising now that, just because something is made from FromSoft, doesn't mean it's perfect and it is reflecting in the game's user score.

[surreptitious]

Wanna talk tish then post your build.

If you are using a great sword or any weapon that hits once.
Your opinion doesn't count.

Fun seeing people defend against so many of the mechanics, they play a style that requires
1 read and one button ..

Heavy weapon users talk allot of crap, it the easiest play style.

Jump attack .. start attack out of range .. BONK .. back up.
Wait for the 1 or 2 windows repeat.

Go kill them with a dagger... film it .. post it ... you win ..

Dodgling and rolling 9 attacks to get right to use a heal ability ... to only dodge 9 more
it can be done ... sure .. who wants to ...

This isn't a game you come back to and play to enjoy .
The scaling sucks and is just gates ... the whole DLC is just gates .. go find gate 1 go find gate stone 2 which is behind the boss you needed gate stone 1 for ...
The mobs are not fun they are chores to accomplish and when it is over I can speak for myself .. im not going back ... why would I ?

95% of weapons that are never used because they dont do enough poise damage to give the play a window to escape or punish .

95% of skills never used because their damage output is either too low to use in a boss fight against the hit point bar ... or are too slow and leave you open.

Who would by a dodge simulator game ?
Isn't that Mario Brothers ? Jump the fire ball , jump jump jump ..


Looks like its time to double up the heavy weapons and jump attack , jump attack , jump attack

[Cthulhu897]

git gud

[Captain_Cole]

Originally posted by Chris1:

Playing the DLC more and this sticks out to me. You can't really learn the bosses by fighting them anymore. All the DLC bosses follow all the same trends - infinite poise, multiple hit endless combos, wide AoE attacks that have small dodge windows, ability to instantly teleport exactly to where the player is - and most attacks are enough to one or two shot the player. The DLC is basically an exercise in running back to the enemy that killed you and hoping to learn a single attack and then rinse and repeat.

It's really just an exercise in bashing your head against the wall over and over. Bosses in souls games didn't use to be like this. Orphan of Kos is one of my favorite bosses of all time, and you could actually learn his moves as the fight went on. Same with Dancer of Boreal Valley and Slave Knight Gael. Go back and revisit those fights and it was more of a chess match where you could learn and adapt during the fight as it was going on.

The Elden Ring "difficulty" mainly just comes from multiple attacks strung together with hyper aggression and those attacks basically designed to one-shot the player with little to no predictability and no ability to use basic tools such as distance management or poise breaking - fundamental game play concepts. What happened From Soft? It's fine in small doses, but when it's your only trick for every single boss, it's just lacking.

Just go through the DLC and count how many enemies have these attributes - wide AoE, endless multiple-hit combos, infinite poise, ability to teleport exactly where you are negating any distance management, and how many attacks can one/two shot you.

We can all "git gud" but if the way to do it is like this, is it really fun? I think FromSoft hyper focused on giving a challenge to "die hard players" and forgot to actually make a fun game. It's disappointing because most of the content between the ridiculous boss fights is actually a lot of fun.

Yes you can. It just means you die alot whilst learning there move sets, which they all have.

[Haru]

Originally posted by M0S5Y.ctn:

It does speak volumes that the current reception of the DLC is mixed. Granted, a fair bit of those are performance issues, but the majority of reviews is not vibing with the design philosophies of the bosses. No other FromSoft game actually had this occurrence where mountains of people are criticizing not that bosses are HARD but that their THEIR DESIGN PRINCIPLES are acutely unfun.

It's not that they're difficult, it's that they are difficult in ways that feel artificial and frustrating, compared to their other games. They spent so much time trying to push the envelope to achieve peak difficulty that it seems like they didn't bother at all to ask themselves if their fights are still fun. I have 600 hours in ER but the bosses are my least favourite aspect of the game by orders of magnitude.
(Side note: if even the speedrun and challenge run community routinely points out how badly designed many of the bosses are, you know something's going on.)

And it's not like the "git gud" crowd is wrong, you can still get good and learn the bosses and do hitless runs if you put in the time - the problem is that all the 7+ combo strings, teleports, attack holding, insane staggering, mixing up patterns mid combo and copious amounts of input read combined with the massive damage output make the fights not feel fun. You don't feel good when a boss dies, instead you're happy that this ordeal is over, so you can go back to enjoying the game until you encounter the next boss and it repeats again.

There are so many elements in Elden Ring's boss design that work to accomplish nothing but agitate you, and it's a damn shame. But I'm also glad that people are realising now that, just because something is made from FromSoft, doesn't mean it's perfect and it is reflecting in the game's user score.

I'd argue that Elden Ring is Fromsoft's best selling game and sold an extreme number of copies to an enormous number of people that've never experienced a Fromsoft DLC before. A lot of the people leaving these reviews are the usual folks who do not take advantage of the tools they can use to best the game. It's for this same reason I am trying to finish the DLC before everything gets the base game Redahnt treatment.

[willy bammy]

Originally posted by VicViper:

I remember people whining about Friede like this before. Been wondering where those guys went lol.

I remember this too. Feels like nostalgia bias honestly, people think Friede doesn't fit the super long wombo combo category? Friede's third phase is nuts.

[LuckyToShoot]

The real enemy is fighting the camera, not the boss or their long combo.

[Sgt. Flaw]

Been fighting Rellana all night with just two blessings and a level 130 I'm learning...Consistently get her to her second phase and consistently getting her close...Just need to increase my consistency with dodging some of her signature moves to increase the chances of winning...

I'm not a RL 1 runner but I do at least like giving a boss a shot at learning a strategy rather than taking them out from pure DPS...You def. do get better if you pay attention. Don't expect to if you go in with half a brain every time. Take note of what is happening...don't go in swinging blindly

A no hit every time is more than possible with time and effort.

[楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE]

That is what I am doing all this time. And I beat them solo so far. Haven't reach the last boss. Probably going to be a long and painful process. That is the whole idea of playing a From Soft Original Souls game. If I want to feel good about an easy trip. I go play Lord of the Fallen lol.

[Sgt. Flaw]

Originally posted by 楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE:

That is what I am doing all this time. And I beat them solo so far. Haven't reach the last boss. Probably going to be a long and painful process. That is the whole idea of playing a From Soft Original Souls game. If I want to feel good about an easy trip. I go play Lord of the Fallen lol.

Srs..I have limited time and I'm just enjoying it...I ain't burning a blessing unless I absolutily have too...I like figuring out these bosses..

[楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE]

Originally posted by Sgt. Flaw:

Originally posted by 楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE:

That is what I am doing all this time. And I beat them solo so far. Haven't reach the last boss. Probably going to be a long and painful process. That is the whole idea of playing a From Soft Original Souls game. If I want to feel good about an easy trip. I go play Lord of the Fallen lol.

Srs..I have limited time and I'm just enjoying it...I ain't burning a blessing unless I absolutily have too...I like figuring out these bosses..

Sure, but you have to acknowledge the fact that, it isn't anybodies problem but yours. I don't play it every hour or every day too. I play it when I can and when I want to.

Don't make your problem someone else problem. If this game is not for you. Refund. If you can't refund. Do try to do more research first before you buy any game in the future.

[Sgt. Flaw]

Originally posted by 楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE:

Originally posted by Sgt. Flaw:

Srs..I have limited time and I'm just enjoying it...I ain't burning a blessing unless I absolutily have too...I like figuring out these bosses..

Sure, but you have to acknowledge the fact that, it isn't anybodies problem but yours. I don't play it every hour or every day too. I play it when I can and when I want to.

Don't make your problem someone else problem. If this game is not for you. Refund. If you can't refund. Do try to do more research first before you buy any game in the future.

Thats why I said I was enjoying it...

[楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE]

Originally posted by Sgt. Flaw:

Originally posted by 楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE:

Sure, but you have to acknowledge the fact that, it isn't anybodies problem but yours. I don't play it every hour or every day too. I play it when I can and when I want to.

Don't make your problem someone else problem. If this game is not for you. Refund. If you can't refund. Do try to do more research first before you buy any game in the future.

Thats why I said I was enjoying it...

Ah okay I misread your response. I have been reading too many negative response. My apologies.

[PJ]

You need to find more skibidy tree fragments.

[Roy]

The souls franchise used to be a very punishing RPG with very dangerous bosses, who you COULD clear on the first run if you were careful/skillful.
It was hard, but fair, every death was a learning oppurtunity and it felt like "oh okay that won't happen next time".

Fast forward to DS3&Elden Ring, where the fanbase has been actively gaslighting Miyazaki the game should be as frustrating as possible, because they keep telling themselves and eachother that "it's too easy" as a weird flex.
Long spammy combo's with only one or two short timeframes to counter strongly decreased the amount of ways in how you can deal with bosses.
Meta builds are more prevalent than ever and some weapons can only effectively be used in a jump attack before the boss repeats his cycle.

Don't mention this though, people get REALLY upset when you do.