You can't learn a boss by fighting them anymore

[Chris1]

Playing the DLC more and this sticks out to me. You can't really learn the bosses by fighting them anymore. All the DLC bosses follow all the same trends - infinite poise, multiple hit endless combos, wide AoE attacks that have small dodge windows, ability to instantly teleport exactly to where the player is - and most attacks are enough to one or two shot the player. The DLC is basically an exercise in running back to the enemy that killed you and hoping to learn a single attack and then rinse and repeat.

It's really just an exercise in bashing your head against the wall over and over. Bosses in souls games didn't use to be like this. Orphan of Kos is one of my favorite bosses of all time, and you could actually learn his moves as the fight went on. Same with Dancer of Boreal Valley and Slave Knight Gael. Go back and revisit those fights and it was more of a chess match where you could learn and adapt during the fight as it was going on.

The Elden Ring "difficulty" mainly just comes from multiple attacks strung together with hyper aggression and those attacks basically designed to one-shot the player with little to no predictability and no ability to use basic tools such as distance management or poise breaking - fundamental game play concepts. What happened From Soft? It's fine in small doses, but when it's your only trick for every single boss, it's just lacking.

Just go through the DLC and count how many enemies have these attributes - wide AoE, endless multiple-hit combos, infinite poise, ability to teleport exactly where you are negating any distance management, and how many attacks can one/two shot you.

We can all "git gud" but if the way to do it is like this, is it really fun? I think FromSoft hyper focused on giving a challenge to "die hard players" and forgot to actually make a fun game. It's disappointing because most of the content between the ridiculous boss fights is actually a lot of fun.

[Coin]

Originally posted by ShivaX:

The difference is when I died to Nameless King or Frieda, I almost always knew exactly why it happened and what I did wrong. Maybe with a new phase or ability I get caught off guard the first time, but after that it was execution. I knew why I lost and when I won, I knew why I won.

Frieda is still my favorite fight in a Fromsoft game I think. Gael might win if he wasn't at the end of a DLC I otherwise didn't care for. Nameless King is up there. Malenia got close, but I got tired of the nonsense and cheese.

I should be rewarded for knowing my enemy's attack patterns. I should be able to say "now is the time where I can drink an Estus or get a hit in," I shouldn't get input read and have them fly across the arena to smack me while I try to drink in that moment of learned respite that leads immediately into another 4-6 attack chain any one of which probably kills me. Or god forbid I try to swing an ultra greatsword at them without hopping around like Mario.

It's still the case with bosses like Malenia and Margit.

[D. Flame]

Originally posted by ShivaX:

Originally posted by willy bammy:

Having to die to a boss to learn it is not a new concept, it's been a part of fromsoft boss design for awhile. How many people do you think beat Capra Demon, or Bed of Chaos, or Nameless King, or Sister Friede, or O&S on their very first ever attempt?
It's even harder for bosses whose second phase is entirely different from the first (nameless king and friede for example) so it's the like first phase gatekeeps your ability to learn the next one. But that didn't start with Elden Ring

The difference is when I died to Nameless King or Frieda, I almost always knew exactly why it happened and what I did wrong. Maybe with a new phase or ability I get caught off guard the first time, but after that it was execution. I knew why I lost and when I won, I knew why I won.

EXACTLY, and that is what made it fair.

Meanwhile, Malenia's wombo combo was trial and error until you learned the exact pattern you were supposed to move in, or where to stand, etc.

[Something]

Originally posted by ShivaX:

Originally posted by willy bammy:

Having to die to a boss to learn it is not a new concept, it's been a part of fromsoft boss design for awhile. How many people do you think beat Capra Demon, or Bed of Chaos, or Nameless King, or Sister Friede, or O&S on their very first ever attempt?
It's even harder for bosses whose second phase is entirely different from the first (nameless king and friede for example) so it's the like first phase gatekeeps your ability to learn the next one. But that didn't start with Elden Ring

The difference is when I died to Nameless King or Frieda, I almost always knew exactly why it happened and what I did wrong. Maybe with a new phase or ability I get caught off guard the first time, but after that it was execution. I knew why I lost and when I won, I knew why I won.

Frieda is still my favorite fight in a Fromsoft game I think. Gael might win if he wasn't at the end of a DLC I otherwise didn't care for. Nameless King is up there. Malenia got close, but I got tired of the nonsense and cheese.

I should be rewarded for knowing my enemy's attack patterns. I should be able to say "now is the time where I can drink an Estus or get a hit in," I shouldn't get input read and have them fly across the arena to smack me while I try to drink in that moment of learned respite that leads immediately into another 4-6 attack chain any one of which probably kills me. Or god forbid I try to swing an ultra greatsword at them without hopping around like Mario.

Yeah and deaths caused by bad camera angles have been meme'd on since Demon's Souls on the PS3 was current and FromSoftware STILL refuses to do anything about it. Most of my deaths to the giant Neverending Story monster and SSJ Oprah was to not being able to see my own character through the enemies themselves because their frame is so massive it just swallows the character up whole, and with the damage scaling in this game by the time you swung the camera around to see what you were doing it most likely will have already wombo combo'd you. Like I literally only got past the Hippo boss because I some how correctly guessed enough times without being able to see my character when I should of dodged. And during Messer or the GRIME boss, dodging one attack makes my camera freak out and go into some corkscrew of death that eventually just has me dodge rolling into the follow up attack that inevitably kills me. That's not how fights should work. I mean hell look at Nioh. The camera doesn't screw you over during big monster fights in that game anywhere near like FromSoftware's does.

[Key]

Originally posted by Coin:

Originally posted by ShivaX:

The difference is when I died to Nameless King or Frieda, I almost always knew exactly why it happened and what I did wrong. Maybe with a new phase or ability I get caught off guard the first time, but after that it was execution. I knew why I lost and when I won, I knew why I won.

Frieda is still my favorite fight in a Fromsoft game I think. Gael might win if he wasn't at the end of a DLC I otherwise didn't care for. Nameless King is up there. Malenia got close, but I got tired of the nonsense and cheese.

I should be rewarded for knowing my enemy's attack patterns. I should be able to say "now is the time where I can drink an Estus or get a hit in," I shouldn't get input read and have them fly across the arena to smack me while I try to drink in that moment of learned respite that leads immediately into another 4-6 attack chain any one of which probably kills me. Or god forbid I try to swing an ultra greatsword at them without hopping around like Mario.

It's still the case with bosses like Malenia and Margit.

There's several that still respect this. Godfrey, Morgott, Tree Sentinel, Draconic Tree Sentinel and so on.

The problem is they started throwing this philosophy in the trash by the endgame.

Elden beast has an attack that is impossible to dodge up close, and can and will overlap attacks into undodgeable combinations. Mohg has one attack that is straight up undodgeable, Malenia has an attack lifted from Sekiro, meaning it wasn't designed to be dodged, we just happened to figure out a way to do it.

When it comes to the DLC, they stopped giving a damn. Bosses just flow from a chain of attack into an other with projectiles and aoes on top. And while you can and should dodge what you can, at some point you just accept you have to take chip damage to win the fight.

Not to mention a third of the sh*t the Final Boss of the DLC does seems to be litterally undodgeable, you pretty much have to go in expecting to take damage.

I've done hitless fights with every Souls Boss, I'm not even gonna try in this DLC, it's just way over the top.

[VicViper]

I remember people whining about Friede like this before. Been wondering where those guys went lol.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by D. Flame:

The series got popular with Demon's Souls. Dark Souls only got made because Demon's Souls was already a surprise hit.

That's just not true. Demon's Souls was super niche and almost didn't get released outside of Japan iirc.

Dark Souls 1 was by far the more popular entry and drew worldwide interest in the genre.

[Butcher]

Originally posted by VicViper:

I remember people whining about Friede like this before. Been wondering where those guys went lol.

I remember people whining about Dark Souls 2 saying that "every encounter is gank". That was about regular mobs who die in 1 hit.

[D. Flame]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush09:

Originally posted by D. Flame:

The series got popular with Demon's Souls. Dark Souls only got made because Demon's Souls was already a surprise hit.

That's just not true. Demon's Souls was super niche and almost didn't get released outside of Japan iirc.

Dark Souls 1 was by far the more popular entry and drew worldwide interest in the genre.

Yeah, not sure why you are lying when it is so easy to debunk:

https://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/02/10/shuhei-yoshida-interview.aspx?PostPageIndex=2
Sony Talks The Last Guardian, Demon's Souls, And The Vita Launch
by Jim Reilly
Feb 2012

Shuhei Yoshida:
For my personal experience with Demon’s Souls, when it was close to final I spent close to two hours playing it and after two hours I was still standing at the beginning at the game. I said, “This is crap. This is an unbelievably bad game.” So I put it aside.

Luckily, third party publishers, Atlus in North America and Namco in Europe [stepped in], and it really became a great hit outside of Japan.

We definitely dropped the ball from a publishing standpoint, including studio management side. We were not able to see the value of the product we were making.

So even Sony said it was a hit and that they screwed up by not publishing it themselves.

[Touchinkakashi]

Brother, I am on NG+3/4 and i'm half way done with the DLC at level 214. I'm getting 2shot -OHKO on bosses. Experiment with your ashes of war and try new talisaman combinations. Hog Rider Boss gave me the most trouble out of all the bosses so far and i made it with DOT Poison/rot and raptor's mist to dodge/teleport from his attacks. If i can do it so can you ya bum

[Touchinkakashi]

Originally posted by Touchinkakashi:

Brother, I am on NG+3/4 and i'm half way done with the DLC at level 214. I'm getting 2shot -OHKO on bosses. Experiment with your ashes of war and try new talisaman combinations. Hog Rider Boss gave me the most trouble out of all the bosses so far and i made it with DOT Poison/rot and raptor's mist to dodge/teleport from his attacks. If i can do it so can you ya bum

that was susposed to be to the OP lmaooo

[Blu]

the real problem is 60 FPS lock

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by D. Flame:

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush09:

That's just not true. Demon's Souls was super niche and almost didn't get released outside of Japan iirc.

Dark Souls 1 was by far the more popular entry and drew worldwide interest in the genre.

Yeah, not sure why you are lying when it is so easy to debunk:


Sony Talks The Last Guardian, Demon's Souls, And The Vita Launch
by Jim Reilly
Feb 2012

Shuhei Yoshida:
For my personal experience with Demon’s Souls, when it was close to final I spent close to two hours playing it and after two hours I was still standing at the beginning at the game. I said, “This is crap. This is an unbelievably bad game.” So I put it aside.

Luckily, third party publishers, Atlus in North America and Namco in Europe [stepped in], and it really became a great hit outside of Japan.

We definitely dropped the ball from a publishing standpoint, including studio management side. We were not able to see the value of the product we were making.

Was this supposed to prove something? A "hit" in this context could mean the game reviewed well or had great word of mouth, which it did. Notice how he doesn't disclose sales figures or anything like it, which is a key indicator of popularity.

You said the series got popular with DeS, which isn't true because DS1 sold significantly more and put From on the map.

DeS1 was popular, don't get me wrong, but it had more of a cult following in Japan and outside of it. It didn't really get the attention (and therefore popularity) it deserved. And many people just ignored it until DS1 came along - and that's when the series really popped off.

[D. Flame]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush09:

Originally posted by D. Flame:

Yeah, not sure why you are lying when it is so easy to debunk:


Sony Talks The Last Guardian, Demon's Souls, And The Vita Launch
by Jim Reilly
Feb 2012

Was this supposed to prove something? A "hit" in this context could mean the game reviewed well or had great word of mouth, which it did. Notice how he doesn't disclose sales figures or anything like it, which is a key indicator of popularity.

Yes, Sony, the huge multinational company, wasn't talking about sales. They were just talking about little Billy telling his friends that the game was cool, and that is why they said that they made a mistake not publishing it themselves.

LOL

BLOCKED

[CourtesyFlush09]

Originally posted by D. Flame:

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush09:

Was this supposed to prove something? A "hit" in this context could mean the game reviewed well or had great word of mouth, which it did. Notice how he doesn't disclose sales figures or anything like it, which is a key indicator of popularity.

Yes, Sony, the huge multinational company, wasn't talking about sales. They were just talking about little Billy telling his friends that the game was cool, and that is why they said that they made a mistake not publishing it themselves.

LOL

BLOCKED

Damn, you really went off the deep end since the last time I remember talking to you lmao.

Peace.

[SirBlonsky]

Originally posted by CourtesyFlush09:

Incorrect. I just beat Messmer after dying so many times and memorizing his attacks. It's no different than any other Souls game.

yes but messmer is easy compared with bayle