why were multi bosses nerfed?

[Freaktacular]

you can split aggro with summons, so why did they nerf bosses like crystalians?
it can't be that players stubbornly refuse a new mechanic and then complain when an optional encounter enforces it, right?
i wonder if it's going to happen again in the expansion?

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten:

Originally posted by Quillithe:

I think the issue is that this is true - but people thought of spirit ashes as a substitute for summoning players in Dark Souls, which those games really didn't feel as designed around (in the sense that they were never too frustrating without - not that it's wrong to summon!)

So then people assumed no summon was the 'default'.

Personally I used them a bunch because they were fun. You don't always need the best meta one, it's just really fun playing around with all the bumbling dudes and bringing some weird buddies into your boss fights.

Yeah. I think From Software games are misunderstood as "hard" and so people just want them more and more difficult. The reality is that they have a high learning curve more than that they are inherently difficult. I played Dark Souls recently and found it pretty easy. But that's because I played it before, I knew what I was doing and I was efficient at the game. I knew what areas to go before other areas and where to avoid.

Demon souls and dark souls 1 are really pretty mechanically simple. Outside of maybe O&S and some DLC bosses most fights are 98% knowing what to do and being careful rather than anything about reaction speed or precise timing, etc.

And that's without summoning when the game is also designed for that to be an option - when the bell gargoyles are 2v2 they're REALLY not bad.

Basically the reputation was for actually punishing death and making you need to really engage and get immersed, especially when the trend was really heavy into map markers, tooltips, etc at the time.

[SotiCoto]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

I don't really see a negative connotation - self imposed challenge runes can definitely be fun, that's the whole point.

Ah, so you don't see the imposition in the word imposition.
Well okay then.
I don't like challenge runs because I hate challenge. Challenge is un-fun.

But sometimes I just do or don't do things because the character I'm playing as would or wouldn't do them, and that is fine, because doing things for roleplaying and immersion isn't the same as doing them for challenge.

And sometimes I just do things because I'm curious to see if it works, or whether I can do it, and that is fine, because doing things for exploration and SCIENCE isn't the same as doing them for challenge.

And sometimes I don't do things because they're new and I'm old and you can't teach an old cat new tricks, and I'm too curmudgeonly to bother using a feature that the game is shoving in my face, even if it would make my life easier... and that is fine too, but I'm not sure why. It still isn't challenge though, because challenge is for making the game harder and I don't like making the game harder.
I'm mostly just reminded of things like Pokémon Sun where the game was all "Use these Funky New Z-Moves!!!" and I was like "Nope. They're stupid. I hate them. I'ma play like its Pokémon Red".


And no, none of this is contradictory. What are you talking about? Pffft. Ridiculous.

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by SotiCoto:

Originally posted by Quillithe:

I don't really see a negative connotation - self imposed challenge runes can definitely be fun, that's the whole point.

Ah, so you don't see the imposition in the word imposition.
Well okay then.
I don't like challenge runs because I hate challenge. Challenge is un-fun.

But sometimes I just do or don't do things because the character I'm playing as would or wouldn't do them, and that is fine, because doing things for roleplaying and immersion isn't the same as doing them for challenge.

And sometimes I just do things because I'm curious to see if it works, or whether I can do it, and that is fine, because doing things for exploration and SCIENCE isn't the same as doing them for challenge.

And sometimes I don't do things because they're new and I'm old and you can't teach an old cat new tricks, and I'm too curmudgeonly to bother using a feature that the game is shoving in my face, even if it would make my life easier... and that is fine too, but I'm not sure why. It still isn't challenge though, because challenge is for making the game harder and I don't like making the game harder.
I'm mostly just reminded of things like Pokémon Sun where the game was all "Use these Funky New Z-Moves!!!" and I was like "Nope. They're stupid. I hate them. I'ma play like its Pokémon Red".


And no, none of this is contradictory. What are you talking about? Pffft. Ridiculous.

There really isn't a negative connotation

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SelfImposedChallenge


Basically it's just saying that only you are deciding on the challenge. It's not one built in to the game in any way.

Like you might ask 'can I beat Elden Ring only using throwing consumables' and it would be a self imposed challenge. There's really nothing negative about this.

[Tao314zdin]

Given how old the story with those PVE nerfs is, they prob. will be taking this experience into account and it has a chance not to repeat.

Strange to call "stuborn" the idea of not using accessibility tools meant for bottom of the skill barrow. I mean sure they exist, but this is just an alternative implementation of the difficulty slider. A more immersive version, but it still serves the same purpose.

I agree though that one not playing on the easiest mode does not have a place to complain about difficulty, especially when there are no rewards for completing the task on higher difficulty.

[Freaktacular]

Originally posted by RyuzakiMorgoth:

They were nerfed because they are overly aggressive.

aggression that can be diluted with summons, any player would have picked up some ashes and some glovewart and would be able to quickly setup a strategy. that's what gamers do, they adapt.

[Killer Kitten]

Originally posted by Quillithe:

Originally posted by Killer Kitten:

Yeah. I think From Software games are misunderstood as "hard" and so people just want them more and more difficult. The reality is that they have a high learning curve more than that they are inherently difficult. I played Dark Souls recently and found it pretty easy. But that's because I played it before, I knew what I was doing and I was efficient at the game. I knew what areas to go before other areas and where to avoid.

Demon souls and dark souls 1 are really pretty mechanically simple. Outside of maybe O&S and some DLC bosses most fights are 98% knowing what to do and being careful rather than anything about reaction speed or precise timing, etc.

And that's without summoning when the game is also designed for that to be an option - when the bell gargoyles are 2v2 they're REALLY not bad.

Basically the reputation was for actually punishing death and making you need to really engage and get immersed, especially when the trend was really heavy into map markers, tooltips, etc at the time.

I don't even see the system as punishing death. If you play Kings Field, which is the first FromSoftware game, THAT punishes you.

If you die in any of the Soulsborne games, the only thing you lose is your souls. And sure, that can be frustrating, but its not terrible. You still keep any items you picked up. And you could still possibly recover them. And there's strategies to employ to mitigate that possibility. And if it really comes down to it, you can cut your losses. And it's also an asset to what I call, "dash and die" strategy. You dash for the rare or essential item past the ultra hard thing, knowing you're going to die, but you will have the item if you succeed.

In King's Field, you die, you go back to a save point. Everything is gone. Items are gone. Experience is gone. And worse, until you get a gate and key that goes with it, if you jump down the wrong pit, you're stuck, even if you live.

[The Ultimate Despair]

Originally posted by Freaktacular:

Originally posted by RyuzakiMorgoth:

They were nerfed because they are overly aggressive.

aggression that can be diluted with summons, any player would have picked up some ashes and some glovewart and would be able to quickly setup a strategy. that's what gamers do, they adapt.

Except that even with summons, the random variable remains and you could get destroyed easily. Not everyone got there with OP ashes.
You won't send a twin gargoyle ash against them and expect to win lmfao.
That is why the dual fights got nerfed, because at the end of the day, it wasn't balanced enough.

[DayLight1943]

[it can't be that players stubbornly refuse a new mechanic and then complain when an optional encounter enforces it, right?]

it was not stubborn for me, i tried lots of different summons right off the bat in my first playthru. collected a bunch of them, and then revisited spirit summons again when the arena released.

i just didnt like how it changed the gameplay experience. it took bosses from being a dance of reaction and punish to something much simpler and less engaging - waiting for a boss to aggro on my summon, then i button mash attacks, and when aggro goes onto you, you backpedal and go on the defensive till you lose aggro. its just boring and to easy.

imo it changes gameplay on such a fundamental level that bosses and pve should never be designed with spirit summon use in mind. like co-op, it should be an option to make the game easier, but should never be expected. no hate on anyone who uses them, but to me, the boss fights where i use the real strong ones like mimic tear or tiche dont have that engaging dark souls boss experience im looking for. at least when i summon phantoms for co-op, there is an element of social engagement there - seeing each others builds, interacting with gestures, showing off flashy moves, whatever. for me, that experience makes up for the lessened difficulty, but with spirit summons and NPCs that element is missing and it just makes the game boring.

[Freaktacular]

Originally posted by RyuzakiMorgoth:

Not everyone got there with OP ashes.

so? take the L and go somewhere else. playerbase can't accept defeat in an open world game lol.

[The Ultimate Despair]

Originally posted by Freaktacular:

Originally posted by RyuzakiMorgoth:

Not everyone got there with OP ashes.

so? take the L and go somewhere else. playerbase can't accept defeat in an open world game lol.

I know it's super hard for try hards to understand this, but game balance is a thing. You can try, I am sure your brain can grasp the concept.

[Quillithe]

Originally posted by RyuzakiMorgoth:

Originally posted by Freaktacular:

so? take the L and go somewhere else. playerbase can't accept defeat in an open world game lol.

I know it's super hard for try hards to understand this, but game balance is a thing. You can try, I am sure your brain can grasp the concept.

Personally game balance is a blight upon the land. A lot of games try too hard to be balanced and fair at the cost of being memorable.

Fromsoft got famous off stuff like "Let's make the player walk on a tiny ledge while stuff shoots at them and then make them fight some of the game's hardest enemies"

And I just realized that even though I wrote this thinking of a part of Demons Souls this describes Anor Londo too. And maybe Shrine of Amana.

[Freaktacular]

Originally posted by RyuzakiMorgoth:

I know it's super hard for try hards to understand this, but game balance is a thing. You can try, I am sure your brain can grasp the concept.

your idea of balance is what will make games more bland as franchises grow. stop believing that everything should be fair to be good.

[buttchin]

Originally posted by Freaktacular:

you can split aggro with summons, so why did they nerf bosses like crystalians?
it can't be that players stubbornly refuse a new mechanic and then complain when an optional encounter enforces it, right?
i wonder if it's going to happen again in the expansion?

Because eldenring is casualsouls
-no solo pvp
-summon easily accessible
-can summon a clone of yourself
-way to overpowered spells
Not even er but they nerfed ac6 to, pre baltues was a challenge but now feel to easy

[Sonnenbank]

I mean what even is your problem OP ?

So you are sad that Duo Fights are too easy now when you do use Spirit Ashes ?
Okay why arent you sad about the 20 other Bossfights that are too easy with Spirit Ashes ?
its pretty pointless to do further discussion.

PLZ specify why you are angry about the nerf and why you are not angry about all other bossfights being too easy with spirit ashes ?

[Freaktacular]

Originally posted by Sonnenbank:

I mean what even is your problem OP ?

So you are sad that Duo Fights are too easy now when you do use Spirit Ashes ?
Okay why arent you sad about the 20 other Bossfights that are too easy with Spirit Ashes ?
its pretty pointless to do further discussion.

PLZ specify why you are angry about the nerf and why you are not angry about all other bossfights being too easy with spirit ashes ?

summons are a tool that tip the scales. it's fine to have them when it would otherwise be 1v1. what i don't get is why they have to nerf a 1v3 into basically a 1v1 when you could solve the problem by using summons to turn it into a 3v3.