Is 40 Vigor enough for a caster at rl138, or too low?

[I Am Klaus]

I'm reconsidering the meta range that I play at for my next build, and 138 seems like the most likely number for both Coop and PvP, to maintain connectivity with 125. I can make a pure Faith build work for this, but it would require a concession in Vigor, settling on 40 instead of my usual 60, since I'm not willing to sacrifice Mind on a pure caster (anything less than 200 base FP is weaksauce for a caster, IMHO).

The stats would look something like this:

Vigor: 40
Mind: 40
Endurance: 15
Strength: 16
Dexterity: 13
Intelligence: 9
Faith: 77 (+3 from Haligtree Knight Helmet and Commoner's Garb)
Arcane: 7

The other build I'm contemplating is a Strength build for 138, which would have 54 Strength and two-hand a single weapon, though I don't know if dual-wielding is preferred on a Strength Build. It would also have at least 12/12 in Int/Faith for ranged weapons and support magic - namely Bestial Vitality, Flame Cleanse Me and the various Fortification spells - but more likely would have 25 Faith for access to Golden Vow and some party heals.

The Strength build would have 60 Vigor, but would still concede Endurance, and I don't know if 15 Endurance is enough on a Strength build where the weapons weigh so much.

If neither of these builds would work with the concessions they have to make then I'm content to just stay at rl175 as my preferred stopping point, since I can still do coop, duels and fight clubs with rl150's.

[I Am Klaus]

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Ever since picking up Bloodborne I've taken an aggressive approach to combat, I'm offense-minded now, and I refuse, utterly refuse, to even entertain the notion that being able to survive a hit is more important than being able to dish out a hit in Elden Ring. What's the point of being able to eat damage if you can't deal it?

But that probably just goes to show that 125 probably isn't for me. Too many concessions, not enough room to flesh out a build.

That was why I settled on 175 in the first place, I get to that level naturally over the course of a playthrough, I can still do Coop/Duels/Fight Clubs with 150's, and I'm able to connect with 200's as well, and it leaves enough points to round out my builds and shore up their biggest weaknesses.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by Your moms car:

We'll have to agree to disagree then. Ever since picking up Bloodborne I've taken an aggressive approach to combat, I'm offense-minded now, and I refuse, utterly refuse, to even entertain the notion that being able to survive a hit is more important than being able to dish out a hit in Elden Ring.

But that probably just goes to show that 125 probably isn't for me. Too many concessions, not enough room to flesh out a build.

That was why I settled on 175 in the first place, I get to that level naturally over the course of a playthrough, I can still do Coop/Duels/Fight Clubs with 150's, and I'm able to connect with 200's as well, and it leaves enough points to round out my builds and shore up their biggest weaknesses.

ER isnt Bloodborne or Dark Souls, the dmg scaling of this game is way higher, aka, everything does way more dmg (and in my opinion one of its biggest balance issues, which also applies to PvE)

Back in DS3 you could take multiple hits from nearly any weapon, here? you can get destroyed in one or two hits, and thats, if you leveled Vig.

[I Am Klaus]

I'm honestly surprised the meta is so low considering the stat caps and what's required to hit specific breakpoints. I thought for sure it would've been closer to 200 like DS2, which is my preferred stopping point in that game too.

150 I can maybe see for competitive PvP, but 125 just makes no sense for the scale of this game.

[I Am Klaus]

How does this look for a RL138 Strength build?

Vigor: 60
Mind: 18
Endurance: 30
Strength: 54
Dexterity: 18
Intelligence: 12
Faith: 15
Arcane: 10

15 Faith opens up Flame Grant Me Strength and access to the Erdtree Bow, as well as Great Heal for Coop. It also opens up Electrify Weapon. 10 Arcane opens up Bloodflame Blade. 12 Int is for Scholar's Weapon and access to the Horn Bow, which will be my main ranged weapon, paired with Dwelling Arrows and Spiritflame Arrows.

Still enough FP to work with, but hits the softcaps for Vigor, Endurance, and Strength when 2-handing.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by <insert Zeeky Boogy Doog here>:

How does this look for a RL138 Strength build?

Vigor: 60
Mind: 18
Endurance: 30
Strength: 54
Dexterity: 18
Intelligence: 12
Faith: 15
Arcane: 10

15 Faith opens up Flame Grant Me Strength and access to the Erdtree Bow, as well as Great Heal for Coop. It also opens up Electrify Weapon. 10 Arcane opens up Bloodflame Blade. 12 Int is for Scholar's Weapon and access to the Horn Bow, which will be my main ranged weapon, paired with Dwelling Arrows and Spiritflame Arrows.

Still enough FP to work with, but hits the softcaps for Vigor, Endurance, and Strength when 2-handing.

looks ok i suppose.

[dromdead]

Originally posted by <insert Zeeky Boogy Doog here>:

How does this look for a RL138 Strength build?

Vigor: 60
Mind: 18
Endurance: 30
Strength: 54
Dexterity: 18
Intelligence: 12
Faith: 15
Arcane: 10

15 Faith opens up Flame Grant Me Strength and access to the Erdtree Bow, as well as Great Heal for Coop. It also opens up Electrify Weapon. 10 Arcane opens up Bloodflame Blade. 12 Int is for Scholar's Weapon and access to the Horn Bow, which will be my main ranged weapon, paired with Dwelling Arrows and Spiritflame Arrows.

Still enough FP to work with, but hits the softcaps for Vigor, Endurance, and Strength when 2-handing.

For a PvE build it's fine , for PvP it's not optimised and you won't deal nearly as much damage as the other will , it comes down to what you are aiming for . If you wanna try to make build you should use a build planner , so you can see the soft cap for stats and AR on weapon depending on the stats you use .

[I Am Klaus]

Originally posted by dromdead:

Originally posted by <insert Zeeky Boogy Doog here>:

How does this look for a RL138 Strength build?

Vigor: 60
Mind: 18
Endurance: 30
Strength: 54
Dexterity: 18
Intelligence: 12
Faith: 15
Arcane: 10

15 Faith opens up Flame Grant Me Strength and access to the Erdtree Bow, as well as Great Heal for Coop. It also opens up Electrify Weapon. 10 Arcane opens up Bloodflame Blade. 12 Int is for Scholar's Weapon and access to the Horn Bow, which will be my main ranged weapon, paired with Dwelling Arrows and Spiritflame Arrows.

Still enough FP to work with, but hits the softcaps for Vigor, Endurance, and Strength when 2-handing.

For a PvE build it's fine , for PvP it's not optimised and you won't deal nearly as much damage as the other will , it comes down to what you are aiming for . If you wanna try to make build you should use a build planner , so you can see the soft cap for stats and AR on weapon depending on the stats you use .

Where is the damage lacking in PvP? Does it require the full 80 Strength and not two-handing?

[dromdead]

Originally posted by <insert Zeeky Boogy Doog here>:

Originally posted by dromdead:

For a PvE build it's fine , for PvP it's not optimised and you won't deal nearly as much damage as the other will , it comes down to what you are aiming for . If you wanna try to make build you should use a build planner , so you can see the soft cap for stats and AR on weapon depending on the stats you use .

Where is the damage lacking in PvP? Does it require the full 80 Strength and not two-handing?

For a PvE build it's fine , for PvP it's not optimised and you won't deal nearly as much damage as the other will , it comes down to what you are aiming for . If you wanna try to make build you should use a build planner , so you can see the soft cap for stats and AR on weapon depending on the stats you use . [/quote]

Where is the damage lacking in PvP? Does it require the full 80 Strength and not two-handing? [/quote]
I personally think spreading stats too much at that RL in pvp is pretty bad , you do not have enough RL to reach caps and you will loose too much on damage .
If you are aiming to buff up ur weapon there's ash of war such as flaming strike and chilling mist that both works very well on STR build and achieve the same result witheout having to spread stats . i wouldn't recomend investing stats just for weapon buff , you are better off using AoW if you really want to coat ur weapon , aditionally you also have other consumable that can achieve the same thing witheout having to invest on other stats and AoW , i personally enjoy just having pure STR with my greatsword with cragblade and 3-4 tapping anyone that doesn't buff against physical damage at this RL (138).
If you are higher RL (150 and above) you can start to spread a bit , but i still think that at meta RL and a little bit above you are better off just focusing on one thing.
That's how it works best for me

[dromdead]

Obviously if this is PvE then anything can work as long as you have a bit of vigor to not get one tapped by everything.

[I Am Klaus]

But how am I losing damage here? 54 Strength is all that is required for a Strength build, isn't it? Two-handing it will hit the softcap for scaling (80 Strength), and then everything else is Vigor and Endurance, with anything leftover going to other stats for utility.

[I Am Klaus]

I still want to know how I'm leaving a lot of damage on the table in PvP for this build. 54 Strength two-handed is the softcap for Strength scaling, isn't it? As long as I'm hitting that for a Strength build, how am I losing damage?

[cybercybercybercyber4]

i think he is thinking about recovery cancels of AOWs, where you switch from powerstancing to 2H and back to be able to chain AOWs faster than you otherwise could. So you would lose out on the damage of the powerstanced AOW as you dont get the x1,5 of twohanding in that case.
im not 100% sure though, i dont do PVP, yet. I rather wait for the DLC.

[dromdead]

Well there's lots of weapon that are better power stanced or paired with another weapon like psss , pss ,psgs , halberd with a thusting sword just to name a few exemple of weapons that are very good power stanced or paired with other weapons .
in PvP the weapon i listed above have very good moove set and damage for PvP . Obviously some weapon like ultra greatsword or greatsword are better used 2 handed , but getting close to the second cap (first is 55 and second is 80 for STR) will increase ur damage quite a bit , obviously for meta level is it harder to reach 80 while still getting 60 vigor and some endurance . 60 will work best since you also need endurance for the armor needed to get the poise required .
Earlier i was talking about AoW , and i the point i wanted to make is that you can have AoW that buff ur weapon , or you can also just use greases , and if you max out on for exemple STR , you can still have a greatsword with cragblade (a AoW that buffs the weapon) or flaming strike on a fist weapon while still having high STR . Of course this only apply to low rl up to meta RL , at higher rl you can do and have everything .
Two handing a weapon will in fact increase the damage output , but some weapon have better moove set and more damage when power stanced rather then when 2 handed (psss is a very good exemple , PSGS is another good exemple ) and for AoW yes you loose a bit of damage when casting a AoW when power stanced or 1 handed but it's not that big of a deal and doesn't make a lot of difference in reality . I'm not very good at hard swamping so sometimes having a Straight Swords on my offhand with storm blade can help me quickly finish off a oponent .
Of course in PvE anything work , but if you want to min max then i highly recomend not spliting stats too much at low /meta RL , you'll loose on the main stats of ur build too much for buffs you can get with consumable or AoW.
I hope this clarify my point of view ^^

[dromdead]

Originally posted by <insert Zeeky Boogy Doog here>:

But how am I losing damage here? 54 Strength is all that is required for a Strength build, isn't it? Two-handing it will hit the softcap for scaling (80 Strength), and then everything else is Vigor and Endurance, with anything leftover going to other stats for utility.

You asked is 40 vigor enough for a caster at rl 138 and the answer in my opinion is no , get to 58/60 , put all in faith or int depending on what caster you are and the left over on mind , if you are a caster , you won't really need a whole lot of endurance/ other stats. Vigor is , even for a caster mendatory , or else you won't pass the vigor check ;)

[I Am Klaus]

What Heavy weapons perform better being two-handed than they do being dual-wielded or power-stanced?

With a 54 Strength build I could narrow down my weapon choice to the ones that power stancing doesn't really make sense with.

I can also work with getting rid of Int and Arcane, now that I know about Braggart's Roar and that it probably beats out anything in that range for a weapon buff. Still want 15 Faith for Flame Grant Me Strength though.