Is 40 Vigor enough for a caster at rl138, or too low?

[I Am Klaus]

I'm reconsidering the meta range that I play at for my next build, and 138 seems like the most likely number for both Coop and PvP, to maintain connectivity with 125. I can make a pure Faith build work for this, but it would require a concession in Vigor, settling on 40 instead of my usual 60, since I'm not willing to sacrifice Mind on a pure caster (anything less than 200 base FP is weaksauce for a caster, IMHO).

The stats would look something like this:

Vigor: 40
Mind: 40
Endurance: 15
Strength: 16
Dexterity: 13
Intelligence: 9
Faith: 77 (+3 from Haligtree Knight Helmet and Commoner's Garb)
Arcane: 7

The other build I'm contemplating is a Strength build for 138, which would have 54 Strength and two-hand a single weapon, though I don't know if dual-wielding is preferred on a Strength Build. It would also have at least 12/12 in Int/Faith for ranged weapons and support magic - namely Bestial Vitality, Flame Cleanse Me and the various Fortification spells - but more likely would have 25 Faith for access to Golden Vow and some party heals.

The Strength build would have 60 Vigor, but would still concede Endurance, and I don't know if 15 Endurance is enough on a Strength build where the weapons weigh so much.

If neither of these builds would work with the concessions they have to make then I'm content to just stay at rl175 as my preferred stopping point, since I can still do coop, duels and fight clubs with rl150's.

[Dollmaker]

I would aim for at least 50 as a caster, while you mostly try to keep your distance, it isnt always possible, and 40 Vig will not be enough to save you half the time when you get caught.

I usually aim for 55 min at 150 RL,

Forgot to add, but yeah 15 End is LOW for heavier weapons, you will run out of stamina in like two swings, and will be really limited on armor if you wanna carry said weapons

[I Am Klaus]

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

I would aim for at least 50 has a caster, while you mostly try to keep your distance, it isnt always possible, and 40 Vig will not be enough to save you half the time when you get caught.

I usually aim for 55 min at 150 RL,

I can get 60 Vigor on a rl138 Strength build, but it would still only have 15 Endurance.

Vigor: 60
Mind: 20
Endurance: 15
Strength: 54
Dexterity: 18?
Intelligence: 15
Faith: 25 (mainly for Golden Vow, but I'd also get Blessing's Boon and Lord's Heal)
Arcane: 10 (for Bloodflame Blade)

The only way to get more Endurance would be to completely dump Mind and lose the 5 in Intelligence. Then I could push Endurance to 30, but I'd only have 78FP to work with, not even enough for two Golden Vows or two Lord's Heals. So I'm strongly against that idea.

It would come down to whether or not 15 Endurance is enough. I can play with low stamina, it's not nearly as crucial as it was in Dark Souls 3, but the weight is a concern.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by Your moms car:

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

I would aim for at least 50 has a caster, while you mostly try to keep your distance, it isnt always possible, and 40 Vig will not be enough to save you half the time when you get caught.

I usually aim for 55 min at 150 RL,

I can get 60 Vigor on a rl138 Strength build, but it would still only have 15 Endurance.

Vigor: 60
Mind: 20
Endurance: 15
Strength: 54
Dexterity: 18?
Intelligence: 15
Faith: 25 (mainly for Golden Vow, but I'd also get Blessing's Boon and Lord's Heal)
Arcane: 10 (for Bloodflame Blade)

The only way to get more Endurance would be to completely dump Mind and lose the 5 in Intelligence. Then I could push Endurance to 30, but I'd only have 78FP to work with, not even enough for two Golden Vows or two Lord's Heals. So I'm strongly against that idea.

Um, if youre willing, you can use the AOW version of Golden Vow, its slightly weaker, but at least you wont need those FTH points for it, can just put it on a random dagger.

Theres also Bestial Vitality, which while slower, its a way cheaper HoT incantation.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by Your moms car:

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

I would aim for at least 50 has a caster, while you mostly try to keep your distance, it isnt always possible, and 40 Vig will not be enough to save you half the time when you get caught.

I usually aim for 55 min at 150 RL,

It would come down to whether or not 15 Endurance is enough. I can play with low stamina, it's not nearly as crucial as it was in Dark Souls 3, but the weight is a concern.

I recently started a run centered around using heavy stuff, and yeah 15 End is noticeably bad for heavy stuff, your armor is fairly limited, and that was with the Great weapons, not even Colossal.

[I Am Klaus]

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

Originally posted by Your moms car:

I can get 60 Vigor on a rl138 Strength build, but it would still only have 15 Endurance.

Vigor: 60
Mind: 20
Endurance: 15
Strength: 54
Dexterity: 18?
Intelligence: 15
Faith: 25 (mainly for Golden Vow, but I'd also get Blessing's Boon and Lord's Heal)
Arcane: 10 (for Bloodflame Blade)

The only way to get more Endurance would be to completely dump Mind and lose the 5 in Intelligence. Then I could push Endurance to 30, but I'd only have 78FP to work with, not even enough for two Golden Vows or two Lord's Heals. So I'm strongly against that idea.

Um, if youre willing, you can use the AOW version of Golden Vow, its slightly weaker, but at least you wont need those FTH points for it, can just put it on a random dagger.

If I only did Coop that'd probably be fine but the AoW version sucks in PvP. The spell version effects are stronger by default but still only halved in PvP (15/10 in PvE, 7.5/5 in PvP) the AoW version is almost nothing in PvP (reduced to 2.5/1.5) and has only half the duration to boot.

But I would get two casts out of it, so...maybe. I'd still need 12 Faith for Flame Cleanse Me and Bestial Vitality. Those two spells are just too valuable for any build to ignore.

Again, it's a question of, "How badly do I need more Stamina/Weight on a Strength build?"

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by Your moms car:

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

Um, if youre willing, you can use the AOW version of Golden Vow, its slightly weaker, but at least you wont need those FTH points for it, can just put it on a random dagger.

If I only did Coop that'd probably be fine but the AoW version sucks in PvP. The spell version effects are stronger by default but still only halved in PvP (15/10 in PvE, 7.5/5 in PvP) the AoW version is almost nothing in PvP (reduced to 2.5/1.5) and has only half the duration to boot.

But I would get two casts out of it, so...maybe. I'd still need 12 Faith for Flame Cleanse Me and Bestial Vitality. Those two spells are just too valuable for any build to ignore.

Again, it's a question of, "How badly do I need more Stamina/Weight on a Strength build?"

Yeah, Bestial and Cleanse Me are cheap enough to put on nearly any build.

Now, like i said, Heavier weapons, 15 Endurance is NOT good, but if youre using smaller weapons, it'll probably be sorta fine, i would get 20 at least though, if youre planning to use stuff like Greatswords or Great Hammers, Colossals are pretty much out of question if you want heavier armor.

Might need a Talisman for Weight.

[I Am Klaus]

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

Originally posted by Your moms car:

If I only did Coop that'd probably be fine but the AoW version sucks in PvP. The spell version effects are stronger by default but still only halved in PvP (15/10 in PvE, 7.5/5 in PvP) the AoW version is almost nothing in PvP (reduced to 2.5/1.5) and has only half the duration to boot.

But I would get two casts out of it, so...maybe. I'd still need 12 Faith for Flame Cleanse Me and Bestial Vitality. Those two spells are just too valuable for any build to ignore.

Again, it's a question of, "How badly do I need more Stamina/Weight on a Strength build?"

Yeah, Bestial and Cleanse Me are cheap enough to put on nearly any build.

Now, like i said, Heavier weapons, 15 Endurance is NOT good, but if youre using smaller weapons, it'll probably be sorta fine, i would get 20 at least though.

I have to factor in the Int too, for ranged options. 12 Int gets me the Horn Bow, 13 along with Faith gets me Order's Blade and Discus of Light, which is a very cheap option for magical offense. 14 also gives me the Full Moon Crossbow, but I probably wouldn't need that with the Horn Bow at my disposal.

I'd still probably go for at least 15 Faith though, one because it gets me more weapon buffs and gives me Great Heal, but two because Strength has Fire damage as an option, and so Flame Grant Me Strength would be huge for the build.

So I'd probably go 12 Int and 15 Faith, which would also give me the Erdtree Bow for diversity in ranged options (one bow for Magic, one for Holy).

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by Your moms car:

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

Yeah, Bestial and Cleanse Me are cheap enough to put on nearly any build.

Now, like i said, Heavier weapons, 15 Endurance is NOT good, but if youre using smaller weapons, it'll probably be sorta fine, i would get 20 at least though.

I have to factor in the Int too, for ranged options. 12 Int gets me the Horn Bow, 13 along with Faith gets me Order's Blade and Discus of Light, which is a very cheap option for magical offense. 14 also gives me the Full Moon Crossbow, but I probably wouldn't need that with the Horn Bow at my disposal.

I'd still probably go for at least 15 Faith though, one because it gets me more weapon buffs and gives me Great Heal, but two because Strength has Fire damage as an option, and so Flame Grant Me Strength would be huge for the build.

So I'd probably go 12 Int and 15 Faith, which would also give me the Erdtree Bow for diversity in ranged options (one bow for Magic, one for Holy).

The dmg of spells wont be very high at with low stats, just saying.

(And tbh, Holy sucks in PvE)

[Dollmaker]

But... if youre mostly doing Str with 15 Fth, you can use all the Bestial Incantations, Claw isnt that great, but Sling and Stone can be surprisingly helpful, and the talisman for it scales with Str.

Theres also Pest Threads, which while not much in PvP, its a beast against big enemies in PvE.

[I Am Klaus]

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

But... if youre mostly doing Str with 15 Fth, you can use all the Bestial Incantations, Claw isnt that great, but Sling and Stone can be surprisingly helpful, and the talisman for it scales with Str.

Theres also Pest Threads, which while not much in PvP, its a beast against big enemies in PvE.

I forgot about that Talisman. That would actually be a decent option.

The bows would still get some decent scaling from Strength though, the Horn Bow in particular since its AoW can be changed. Farming Magic Arrows and Spiritflame Arrows would be a pain though.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by Your moms car:

Originally posted by Dollmaker:

But... if youre mostly doing Str with 15 Fth, you can use all the Bestial Incantations, Claw isnt that great, but Sling and Stone can be surprisingly helpful, and the talisman for it scales with Str.

Theres also Pest Threads, which while not much in PvP, its a beast against big enemies in PvE.

I forgot about that Talisman. That would actually be a decent option.

The bows would still get some decent scaling from Strength though, the Horn Bow in particular since its AoW can be changed. Farming Magic Arrows and Spiritflame Arrows would be a pain though.

The scaling of Bows isnt that great in general tbh.

[dromdead]

For pvp 58 minimum for caster or 60 max , i'd say at this rl don't aim for stats at 80.

[I Am Klaus]

Originally posted by dromdead:

For pvp 58 minimum for caster or 60 max , i'd say at this rl don't aim for stats at 80.

Seriously? Capping Vigor is more important than capping your primary damage stat, in a game where damage is king above all else?

[dromdead]

Originally posted by Your moms car:

Originally posted by dromdead:

For pvp 58 minimum for caster or 60 max , i'd say at this rl don't aim for stats at 80.

Seriously? Capping Vigor is more important than capping your primary damage stat, in a game where damage is king above all else?

Wrong , if you get one shot by everything damage does not matter AT ALL , and in PVP it matters even more , even the ''glass canon'' build do have 60 vigor , watch any build from any pvp youtuber or anyone that does pvp and you'll see everyone has 60 vigor
As i said above vigor is the best scaling stats in the game , it scales better then anything else , and vigor doesn't just increase hp ;) so if you want to pass the vigor check during a pvp fight or a invasion yes get 60 vigor , and for pve you'll have more room for mistakes , and you'll be funny to see someone dodge all ur pewpew and one shot you bcs you got 10 bigor and 80 int for exemple.

[Dollmaker]

Originally posted by dromdead:

Originally posted by Your moms car:

Seriously? Capping Vigor is more important than capping your primary damage stat, in a game where damage is king above all else?

Wrong , if you get one shot by everything damage does not matter AT ALL , and in PVP it matters even more , even the ''glass canon'' build do have 60 vigor , watch any build from any pvp youtuber or anyone that does pvp and you'll see everyone has 60 vigor
As i said above vigor is the best scaling stats in the game , it scales better then anything else , and vigor doesn't just increase hp ;) so if you want to pass the vigor check during a pvp fight or a invasion yes get 60 vigor , and for pve you'll have more room for mistakes , and you'll be funny to see someone dodge all ur pewpew and one shot you bcs you got 10 bigor and 80 int for exemple.

Yeah, Vig is by far the most important stat, followed by End and Mind depending on build, with the dmg ones being the least important.

You need to able to take a hit or two at least, and 50-60 is the the recommended stat for Vig