The combat is too simplistic and passive

[toughnails]

In almost all Souls games past DS1 the strategy for the boss is "how good can you get at pressing the circle button bro?" as the boss flails around with hyper armor delayed combo strings. Yes, you get to pick what weapon you're hitting R1 twice with (or what spell you're hitting R1 once with) to punish them after the string ends, and what support magic if any you're buffing up with. But the number of ways to actually creatively engage with bosses is quite low.

However, this in my opinion is where the "accessibility" and popularity of Souls games actually comes from. The game doesn't expect you to ever do anything more than hit circle and R1 at the right time. In fact it doesn't even really allow you to, intentionally restricting your capacity for action heavily to make the enemies feel more oppressive. It's sort of a false difficulty, where all it really demands is stubborn repetition over and over until you learn all the timings.

Whereas when you look at more complex action games, Sekiro being among them, the player character has far more offensive tools at their disposal and the game is designed with the expectation that they learn to employ them. Sekiro becomes far easier once you stop standing there waiting to see what the boss is gonna do and start taking initiative and forcing them on the defensive, because the vast majority of them actually react to your offense rather than just unga-bungaing through it, and the ones that do almost all have weaknesses to some prosthetic that stuns them and creates openings. Imagine if you could play through a Souls game controlling Dante or Hayabusa instead of a Souls character. You would breeze through that sh*t, probably wouldn't even die. But if you try and play through Ninja Gaiden or DMC on their hardest difficulty just standing there dodging through everything and then doing 2 basic attacks and going back to dodging you'd get your ass kicked.

A lot of the people who stan Souls combat the hardest are the ones who simply aren't great at mastering the larger more complex movesets of the typical action game character and thus are at a huge disadvantage in those games. Whereas Souls only asks them to just focus really hard on doing a couple things which they repeat over and over until they've honed it to an extreme focus. But consequently it becomes almost a "we have purposely trained him wrong, as a joke" situation when they try and branch out to more complex games and find their overall ability is suddenly extremely incomplete even though Souls made them think they were hot sh*t.

[Question]

Originally posted by Sean Maxhell:

Not the Circle Button:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3045771641

Misleading, you are still dodging (or else you would have been eaten alive by the flurry) and you are constantly flinching her. I'm not sure why you are flinching her so often either, in my experience she doesn't flinch 100% of the time even with the guts great sword.

[Question]

Originally posted by vamirez:

Originally posted by Question:

OP kind of has a point. In action games that encourage the player to be aggressive, you have the ability to interrupt an action to dodge. So for example if you see the enemy telegraphing an attack, you can interrupt your attack to dodge it. Or there are other mechanics like temporary shields, etc, that let you be aggressive for short periods of time without being eating massive damage.

ER doesnt allow you to do that, there are many frames in which pressing dodge does nothing and all you can do is helplessly watch your character eat the attack you saw coming. This discourages aggressive play because the only truly safe way to attack is to wait for the boss to finish an attack first.

And since all bosses have hyper armor and just tank your attacks, there is no incentive to be aggressive either, since it doesn't prevent them from going on the offensive.

(not counting stuff like flinching them with lion's claw spam)

Tha action queue is one of the key points of a soulslike. It's there for a good reason. But the apparent lesson or conclusion you describe here is also wrong, at least in ER.

It's there to force you to play defensively, OP's point was that ER doesn't encourage you to play aggressively. He is right in that regard, because the game is designed to make you play defensively and wait for openings.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by toughnails:

In almost all Souls games past DS1 the strategy for the boss is "how good can you get at pressing the circle button bro?" as the boss flails around with hyper armor delayed combo strings. Yes, you get to pick what weapon you're hitting R1 twice with (or what spell you're hitting R1 once with) to punish them after the string ends, and what support magic if any you're buffing up with. But the number of ways to actually creatively engage with bosses is quite low.

However, this in my opinion is where the "accessibility" and popularity of Souls games actually comes from. The game doesn't expect you to ever do anything more than hit circle and R1 at the right time. In fact it doesn't even really allow you to, intentionally restricting your capacity for action heavily to make the enemies feel more oppressive. It's sort of a false difficulty, where all it really demands is stubborn repetition over and over until you learn all the timings.

Whereas when you look at more complex action games, Sekiro being among them, the player character has far more offensive tools at their disposal and the game is designed with the expectation that they learn to employ them. Sekiro becomes far easier once you stop standing there waiting to see what the boss is gonna do and start taking initiative and forcing them on the defensive, because the vast majority of them actually react to your offense rather than just unga-bungaing through it, and the ones that do almost all have weaknesses to some prosthetic that stuns them and creates openings. Imagine if you could play through a Souls game controlling Dante or Hayabusa instead of a Souls character. You would breeze through that sh*t, probably wouldn't even die. But if you try and play through Ninja Gaiden or DMC on their hardest difficulty just standing there dodging through everything and then doing 2 basic attacks and going back to dodging you'd get your ass kicked.

A lot of the people who stan Souls combat the hardest are the ones who simply aren't great at mastering the larger more complex movesets of the typical action game character and thus are at a huge disadvantage in those games. Whereas Souls only asks them to just focus really hard on doing a couple things which they repeat over and over until they've honed it to an extreme focus. But consequently it becomes almost a "we have purposely trained him wrong, as a joke" situation when they try and branch out to more complex games and find their overall ability is suddenly extremely incomplete even though Souls made them think they were hot sh*t.

I stopped reading at "Whereas when you look at more complex action games, Sekiro being among them" where you can just stand there and use 1 buttom, deflect, to win 90% to 98% of the time without getting hit and without ever attacking, even if you dont press anything else, but:
Wooo, some rare times there will be an attack you need to jump!!!!
Weee, some rare times there will be an attack you need to mikiri counter!!! (if you just press forward and keep it pressed innevitably this wil happen.

Also deflect is 0.5s window and is spammy also you can deflect the literal everything that is an attack, Sekiro is braindead for that matter but "hey, more complex".

If by more complex you mean all the things that ae possible with prosthetics and skills and all the things used at the right time . . . then every single Souls game and ER are far more complex thaan Sekiro by a large margin, because different melee weapons for different purposes, different magic for different purposes, bow for different purposes and combining everything to its most optimal strategic uses can be far more complex than "melee weapon go bonking", while it alone (melee only) still require the player to position self properly, choose wisely the moment to engage and disengage also how many atttacks to do at the enemy/boss + dodge that also is dodge into aand dodge out ... while Sekiro you can literally just stand there aand press 1 buttom, deflect, to win as enemies and bosses just go at you save a few that will retreat to recover posture and would demand the player to rush into and "maybe" attack to force the boss to attack again not recovering posture.

[Six]

Originally posted by Senki:

Originally posted by Six:

OP, with everything you've said, you should definitely play Nioh 2. It has the best combat out of any Souls-like by a very large margin. It gives you so many tools to fight and answer to the enemy, making combat variety extremely high, especially when compared to a game like Elden Ring where you basically repeat the same actions over and over again with no moveset variety whatsoever. Nioh 2 is also a very different game depending on the weapons you use, since all of them have a very disctinct moveset.

Elden Ring and Dark Souls are definitely better for casual players who want some kind of challenge without having a complex, deep gameplay to learn. This is why Elden Ring and Dark Souls are very popular, after all.

Nioh 2 is just as ''casual'' as dark souls. Idk why people pretend that adding a few more buttons to press is some gigantic change that only the epic gaming elite can do. Casuals play games that have more combat mechanics than dark souls all time time, it's nothing crazy.

The challenge of those games is the exact same deal, dodge, block and parry at the right time to survive. The extra combat moves is just that, more stuff to do, If casuals can pull off combos in god of war ragnarok they can do the same in Nioh

Not to mention that Nioh also has options for builds that simply spam one or 2 moves if people want extra simple stuff

Again, nobody is talking about the challenge here. I'm just saying that the combat allows you to be much more active in Nioh compared to Elden Ring and Dark Souls. And yeah, you can play Nioh just like you'd play Dark Souls and still succeed if you want it. This is the beauty of it: you have the choice. In ER/DS, you do not. The gameplay is very basic.

Also, I said that Elden Ring and Dark Souls are better for casual players because even though Nioh can be played in a simpler manner if you want it, you can definitely get overwhelmed by all the systems, feel like it's too much for you and give up instead of just not using them. Path of Exile is a good example of that: a lot of casual players get scared by the huge passive tree and give up very early, even though they're not supposed to fully engage with it from the get-go.

[楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE]

People likes to compare or elevate games like Sekiro and Nioh 2 to some sort of golden standards nearing godhood these day. But when you dig deeper why they love this games so much compared to others. The reason is mostly because they do better in those games and they are too accustomed to the combat mechanics of those games. Anything else they are unable to adapt is "bad".

Those are good games no doubt. But these people fail to realize that their feelings are not a universal standard that should be shafted down the throat of others who differs in preferences.


But hey. Best way is not to read their thread or even response. Unless you want to be entertained.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19qbHZR0oPg

[Rando the Crit Clown]

Originally posted by Question:

OP kind of has a point. In action games that encourage the player to be aggressive, you have the ability to interrupt an action to dodge. So for example if you see the enemy telegraphing an attack, you can interrupt your attack to dodge it. Or there are other mechanics like temporary shields, etc, that let you be aggressive for short periods of time without eating massive damage.

ER doesnt allow you to do that, there are many frames in which pressing dodge does nothing and all you can do is helplessly watch your character eat the attack you saw coming. This discourages aggressive play because the only truly safe way to attack is to wait for the boss to finish an attack first. So you spend most of the fight watching the boss, dodging the attacks, before finally attacking once in a long while after they finish a 6 hit combo or whatever.

And since all bosses have hyper armor and just tank your attacks, there is no incentive to be aggressive either, since it doesn't prevent them from going on the offensive.

(not counting stuff like flinching them with lion's claw spam)

"How come I can't mindlessly monkey mash without any thought and I literally have no interaction with the game other than pressing the dodge button when I want to dodge?"

[vamirez]

Originally posted by Question:

Originally posted by vamirez:

Tha action queue is one of the key points of a soulslike. It's there for a good reason. But the apparent lesson or conclusion you describe here is also wrong, at least in ER.

It's there to force you to play defensively, OP's point was that ER doesn't encourage you to play aggressively. He is right in that regard, because the game is designed to make you play defensively and wait for openings.

No, that's not why it's there. And in Elden Ring you will wait around a lot if you wait for that one opening. Don't do that.

[Fistraiser]

Originally posted by Question:

OP kind of has a point. In action games that encourage the player to be aggressive, you have the ability to interrupt an action to dodge. So for example if you see the enemy telegraphing an attack, you can interrupt your attack to dodge it. Or there are other mechanics like temporary shields, etc, that let you be aggressive for short periods of time without eating massive damage.

ER doesnt allow you to do that, there are many frames in which pressing dodge does nothing and all you can do is helplessly watch your character eat the attack you saw coming. This discourages aggressive play because the only truly safe way to attack is to wait for the boss to finish an attack first. So you spend most of the fight watching the boss, dodging the attacks, before finally attacking once in a long while after they finish a 6 hit combo or whatever.

And since all bosses have hyper armor and just tank your attacks, there is no incentive to be aggressive either, since it doesn't prevent them from going on the offensive.

(not counting stuff like flinching them with lion's claw spam)

pressing dodge isnt auto dodge which is seemingly something you want.If you are pressing dodge and getting hit then likely your timing was off or you didnt dodge in correct direction.Even at close range in elden ring you can dodge massive aoes by timing the roll right.
As for being scared to take big hits from bosses because you cant stagger them thats subjective.im playing a fat rolling heavy armor build and im able to trade hits with bosses.You just gotta know which hits are ok to trade with and which arent.some will lock you into their combo if you trade hits while others arent punished as hard.
And yes the game does actually encourage you to go agressive.if you're 2 hits away from breaking a boss poise it can be well worth the trade to land the critical hit after.
Sometimes its better to be agressive on a boss in Elden ring.

[Dragonirian]

Originally posted by Question:

Originally posted by Sean Maxhell:

Not the Circle Button:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3045771641

Misleading, you are still dodging (or else you would have been eaten alive by the flurry) and you are constantly flinching her. I'm not sure why you are flinching her so often either, in my experience she doesn't flinch 100% of the time even with the guts great sword.

She has hyperarmour during certain animations.
So one moment you can repeatedly stun her, but if you're a second too late she gets to move.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s78x788460

[楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE]

Originally posted by Question:

OP kind of has a point. In action games that encourage the player to be aggressive, you have the ability to interrupt an action to dodge. So for example if you see the enemy telegraphing an attack, you can interrupt your attack to dodge it. Or there are other mechanics like temporary shields, etc, that let you be aggressive for short periods of time without eating massive damage.

The OP does have a point. Pretty much most From Soft action game is designed this way. To some degree so is AC6, but in that game you can shoot back so it doesn't really fit this topic, The OP. of all things. contradicts himself by using Sekiro as an example. Let us not kid our self. Sekiro is all about patience and rhythmic memories,. follow by "aggressive" actions when there is an opening. So LOL.

Originally posted by Question:

ER doesnt allow you to do that, there are many frames in which pressing dodge does nothing and all you can do is helplessly watch your character eat the attack you saw coming. This discourages aggressive play because the only truly safe way to attack is to wait for the boss to finish an attack first. So you spend most of the fight watching the boss, dodging the attacks, before finally attacking once in a long while after they finish a 6 hit combo or whatever.

And since all bosses have hyper armor and just tank your attacks, there is no incentive to be aggressive either, since it doesn't prevent them from going on the offensive.

(not counting stuff like flinching them with lion's claw spam)

Your description is mostly accurate but you fail to address a problem you highlighted, "discourages aggressive play". This is not a game problem but a player's problem. If the player is discouraged mentally to try aggressive tactics. Well that is on the player not the game. Also, if you know you can't power thru those attacks with the tools available. Try another tactic. Waiting for an opening is exactly what most souls like game is all about. Why else would we play souls like. Just play dynasty warrior! We can destroy entire armies being as aggressive as you want, some people do enjoy that really.

You know what would solve the problem? Make every boss a pvp player. LOL. Seriously, souls like games are all about trial and error. The bosses are scripted. So is Sekiro. Unless you want them to hire actual players to control every boss for every player who is going to encounter it Sounds fun but I am just jesting. Who is going to play these professional boss and how many do we need? LOL. Advance AI?

[Fistraiser]

Originally posted by 楊玄。杨玄。LangrisserWWE:

Originally posted by Question:

OP kind of has a point. In action games that encourage the player to be aggressive, you have the ability to interrupt an action to dodge. So for example if you see the enemy telegraphing an attack, you can interrupt your attack to dodge it. Or there are other mechanics like temporary shields, etc, that let you be aggressive for short periods of time without eating massive damage.

The OP does have a point. Pretty much most From Soft action game is designed this way. To some degree so is AC6, but in that game you can shoot back so it doesn't really fit this topic, The OP. of all things. contradicts himself by using Sekiro as an example. Let us not kid our self. Sekiro is all about patience and rhythmic memories,. follow by "aggressive" actions when there is an opening. So LOL.

Originally posted by Question:

ER doesnt allow you to do that, there are many frames in which pressing dodge does nothing and all you can do is helplessly watch your character eat the attack you saw coming. This discourages aggressive play because the only truly safe way to attack is to wait for the boss to finish an attack first. So you spend most of the fight watching the boss, dodging the attacks, before finally attacking once in a long while after they finish a 6 hit combo or whatever.

And since all bosses have hyper armor and just tank your attacks, there is no incentive to be aggressive either, since it doesn't prevent them from going on the offensive.

(not counting stuff like flinching them with lion's claw spam)

Your description is mostly accurate but you fail to address a problem you highlighted, "discourages aggressive play". This is not a game problem but a player's problem. If the player is discouraged mentally to try aggressive tactics. Well that is on the player not the game. Also, if you know you can't power thru those attacks with the tools available. Try another tactic. Waiting for an opening is exactly what most souls like game is all about. Why else would we play souls like. Just play dynasty warrior! We can destroy entire armies being as aggressive as you want, some people do enjoy that really.

You know what would solve the problem? Make every boss a pvp player. LOL. Seriously, souls like games are all about trial and error. The bosses are scripted. So is Sekiro. Unless you want them to hire actual players to control every boss for every player who is going to encounter it Sounds fun but I am just jesting. Who is going to play these professional boss and how many do we need? LOL. Advance AI?

If i got to control a boss id pick malenia and spam waterfowl dance non stop so they'd rage quit XD

[P.]

At this point, OP should know that there are a lot of moves and that an aggressive playstyle is quite viable. However, some says that skill issue is incurable.

[pevadi88]

I don't know if I am right, but I get the feeling you may have loved these games until you became too good.

[DreadLordAvatar]

ER is a fun game but it has negligible depth. It's a game that demands that you turn off your brain.

[Rhythmless Ninja]

Nioh has best souls-like combat. Souls is fine too though.