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Also why are you 1 handing that Halberd? You can get Radogans Soreseal as well if you don't care to much about damage to give you almost everything you need to 2H it without anything in those stats, or 1 of the other easy to get +5 talismans for str or dex, another talisman slot is obviously easy to get early to use both, or Arsenal Charm.
So ye you can easily get the stats for even that powerful weapon with little invested in anything but VIG, and thats going to get you a lot of early game power which will have very little benefit from you levelling up anything after that but VIG.
I did not mind it on my first run but I was being 1shot way too many times, also searching for talismans I can just keep going through main stuff if I want and avoid all other talismans too.
After that, it may not look like but leveling up STR also grants extra defenses too, more damage and more STR weapon choices.
Leveling up FAITH not only increase damage but also increase defenses/resistances
VIG for 1 hit I will have with the numbers I mentioned, I dont lvl up more than needed and VIG 35 is enough to survive 1 hit at whole NG+
Finding the greatsword early and dumping everything into STR may work for a veteran player but probably not a newbie.
If you think about it...
Boss have 4K HP, you deal 100 dmg/hit, 40 attacks to beat the boss but player plays so bad that spent 25 levels at VIG to survive 1 extra hit (2 maybe considering weaker hits) because player gets hit every 2 or 3 boss attacks while trading hits and hit the boss 2x out of every 3 attempts.
Attacks needed to beat the boss (considering the missed attacks):
(3engages to land 2 hits, needs 50% more engages per hit) = 1.5 x 40 = 60 attempts (engages from either the player or the boss)
Chances of getting hit:
(gets hit once every 2 or 3 boss attacks) = 0.33 x 60 = 20 times
Health flasks early on: 7 considering some farm exploration
Use of flask every 2 hits from boss: 20/2 = 10
Attempts per Flasks needed: 60 / 10 = 6 attempts/engages per flask
Player will not have enough flasks to beat the boss while playing like that but will need more flasks or will need to do 18 attempts/engages to kill the boss without any healling flask
Boss have 4K HP, you deal 250 dmg/hit, 16 attacks to beat the boss but player, aside form playing bad, spent 5 levels at VIG + some at END and is able to survive 1 normal hit (2 maybe considering thje weakest hits), still player gets hit every 2 or 3 boss attacks while trading hits and hit the boss 2x out of every 3 attempts.
Attacks needed to beat the boss (considering the missed attacks):
(3engages to land 2 hits, needs 50% more engages per hit) = 1.5 x 16 = 24 attempts (engages from either the player or the boss)
Chances of gettting hit:
(gets hit once every 2 or 3 boss attacks) = 0.33 x 24 = 8 (rounded up from 7.92)
Health flasks early on: 7 considering some farm exploration
Use of flask every 1 hit from boss: 8
Attempts per Flasks needed: 24/8 = 3 attempts/engages per flask
Player will not have enough flasks to beat the boss while playing like that but will need only 3 attempts/engages without any healling flasks
Sure, I made it counting without spirit summon and without NPC or player summon either, it all can break down the fight some engages to half the amount (or maybe even to "watch the other player kill the boss) but then it defeats the purpose of "leveling up anything", be it VIG, END, STR...
Still, considering the use of spirit ashes and NPC summons, the higher your damage the faster you beat the boss if you keep changing aggro, the more effective this strategy is because you can keep both NPC and spirit summon alive through the whole fight if your damage is higher (if you make every opportunity count) while if your damage is lower you will need more atttempts to hit the boss what may allow the boss to kill both the spirit summon and the NPC before the boss is dead (leaving the player that have trouble with engaging or dodging the boss to be alone, even if the boss have less health now, it will still be a problem)
The player that rely on more health will not be forced the same to learn to chose better positioning and better engage/disengage moments while the player with less health will, in the long run the player with less health will learn faster how to deal with positioning, engage/disengage and dodge (or even the use of shield) while the other player will not (not at the same pace as not being so much forced).
Sure, again, both can use spirit ashes and NPC summons, anyway using both the player with higher damage and lower health still in an "easier fight" in relation to the player with higher health and lower damage, even because the player with higher damage can pick better openings because the player damage will shorten the fight greatly while the player with more heallth but lower damage will have to deal damage more often per engage, leaving this player more open to get hit ... and getting hit more often by combos and heavy attacks that were meant for the spirit ash or NPC as the bosss was not even targeting the player, but as the player have lower health and know if the spirit ash and NPC is not helped the player will be left alone, this player tend to be more aggressive, more prone to getting hit.
You win...I can't take all that freakin math.......
If a player is so bad he needs more health for tanking extra hits this player is also more prone to die to combos as this player tends to "trust its tankiness" and going for too much +VIG early on leaves with low dmg weapons at hand what also mean this player needs to attack more times to beat the boss meaning more chances this player gets killed and more uses of flasks in each bossfight also more chances of running out of heal with a longer fight without flasks, also this player wont learn how to not get hit on the same pace as someone forcing self to avoid getting hit but will feel forced to learn how to be more aggressive. It is true even using spirit ashes and NPC summons as the bosss may have time enough to kill both spirit and NPC summons leaving player alone and may get the player killed by being overaggressive (being less safe and more prone to get combo-ed to the face or getting surprised by a heavy hit) if the playeer loses its patience and try to sspeed up the fight (either losing patience or losing heal flasks while boss still have too much health left or spirit/NPC being killed).
Going for +VIG just enough to survive 1hit and going for better weapons with higher dmg earlier makes these bossfights faster because damage is higher, leaving less chances the player can get hit or killed and less chances of running out of heal with shorter fight without flasks, also leaving more chances spirit ash and NPC summon can survive the whole fight or most of the fight while not being overaggressive (being more safe and less prone to get combo-ed to the face or getting surprised by a heavy hit) as every hit nailed counts a lot against the boss.
At endgame it may not make much difference as tthe "damage stats" may be already upgraded, also flasks maxed, so by there (endgame) the difference I am talking about is mostly negletable and counts more toward early and maybe midgame where player is still spending most points in VIG or not.
I didn't read the whole topic, just wanted to say that your math does not hold up in the two paragraphs I quoted. The problem is that the damage numbers you give are not actual numbers taken from the game. I don't see any way how you could deal 2,5 times the damage with 20 more points in a damage stat.
The reason vigor is actually a lot better than other stats, especially early game, is that the returns you get from vigor are a lot higher than the ones you get from damage stats: If you go from, say, 15 vigor to 40 vigor, you go from 522 hp to 1450 hp, almost tripling your hp. You don't get these kinds returns from other stats.
On the other hand, on low weapon upgrade levels, the returns from damage stats are very small - depending on the weapon, you might get about 20%-30% damage increase by adding 25 points in a damage stat at +6 (normal, not somber).
So if we look at this in a simplistic way, by putting the 25 points into a damage stat, you make the boss fight go 20%-30% faster due to higher damage. On the other hand, if you triple your hp, you can afford three times the mistakes you normally can, so you can afford three times the length of the boss fight if you make the same amount of mistakes.
This is simplistic because I'm assuming low weapon level and full healing on flasks, but the difference is so huge that I think leveling vigor would still win over damage stats by a large margin even if you looked at it with more nuance.
Surviving more than one hit also has the added bonus that you can survive two mistakes in a row and don't have to look for opportunities to heal after every hit, potentially increasing your damage compared to the no vigor - build.
A weak basic weapon at lvl 3 or 4 may deal around 100dmg while a Golden Halberd lvl 1 may deal around 250 dmg to Margit
I also tested the difference (and had tested the case of using both spirit ash (jellifish) and NPC summon for Margit (well, we are talking about early on) and it is far easier to keep both alive with the Golden Halberd than it is to keep them both alive with basic weapon (like a soldier sword)
If the player is bad enough to need to rely on getting hit more often, even using spirit ash and NPC summon this player will still have a long fight ahead while with higher dmg this player either finish the bossfight with at least NPC or spirit ash alive or will have little boss heallth to deal with, much less dangerous.
If the player is not using spirit ash, again considering this player is still bad enough to "need to rely on getting hit more often", this player will eventually run out of flasks or get hit by combo (what mean death anyway, I dont see any scenario for an early char, even lvl 50 full points spent on VIG, where you can get hit by a full Margit combo and survive even with 60 VIG, player will survive maybe +2 hits, 3 hits total before getting killed, but Margit combo will still kill the player even more on second stage if defenses are low . . . maybe +1 hit with the best armor player can get without fatrolling, still gets killed) so if the player do the mistake at the beginning of a combo or maybe even midway through a combo this player still getting killed, the point is to try to find an opening at end of combos, not to survive so much you can facetank the boss (would need the combination of heavy armor with 60 VIG + END to carrry heavier armor + dmg stats that also increase resistances/defenses, then yes you could facetank the early bosses all you want . . . well, if not chain-comboed to death).
I go by the concepts of "accepting one extra mistake" as in "you went too early near the end of boss combo", still the fight would be longer giving boss more chances to kill the player (or kill the "help", NPC and spirit ash, before player could finish the fight or greatly reduce boss health).
Maybe I am a "wrong tester" as I know how to deal with the boss and even testing I speculated situations where boss gets to kill the player or gets to kill spirit ash and NPC?
Yes, tho I allowed the spirit ash a+ NPC to fight the boss solo and to fight the bosss aggroing, in average the boss killed both NPC + spirit ash in less than 2min if I leave them by themsellves against the boss, they may survive between 3min and 5min if I change aggro properly (but I am not counting on a new player that is bad to "perform a good aggro change" with the boss much less to keep aggro to self without getting killed) and 5min is more than enough to kill with a Golden Halberd +1.
Point is, if player gets hit often, even considering boss never cancel the heal (so always counting on an effective use of the flask) a player with lower dmg will always have a longer fight ahead with more chances of getting killed and more chances of running out of flasks (and with a longer fight without flasks), but point also is, if player is used to relly on getting hit, this player is also more prone to getting hit ... what in regard to the numbers I put on my post I considered both cases, higher health and higher dmg, to play the same, I did not consider the higher gmd lower health player would be playing more cautious and trying to chose better the moments to attack, what would be the case in my very honest opinion, as the player would be used to get 1shot at combos and would do better at avoiding combos and learning boss moves, my honest opinion, if you dont rely on getting hit more often you force yourself to learn better and faster how to avoid getting hit and how to hit without getting hit, without trading hits.
Sure, both can work even more if player get lucky attack patterns from the boss, I still suggest "learning the game now" and going for "faster fights" than "learning to rely on trading hits", it will not work good later on too.
Well, obviously the fight will be longer if you do less damage, but my point is that you can afford the longer fight because the amount of mistakes you can afford grows by a wider margin. If you can afford say 30 mistakes in a fight that takes 3 minutes, it means you can make 10 mistakes a minute and still come out on top. If the same fight takes you only 1 minute, but you can afford only 5 mistakes, the fight is harder. Also, we are talking about the same player with different setups here, not players at different skill levels. The Vigor player will still try not to get hit instead of eating full comboes (and I think you might actually be able to survive a full combo of Margit at 40 Vigor, btw - it's three times the HP as base Vigor, that's an insane amount for early game).
Regarding the last paragraph, IMO it's easier to learn the fights with high Vigor because you can get in more actual fighting time in your unsuccessfull attempts. If you die in two hits and suck at the fight, you will just get booted to a loading screen after 10 seconds of fighting the boss and have to run back to the fog wall afterwards. If you die in 4 hits and suck at the fight, you can actually get in some practice.
I get that leveling a stat to afford more mistakes rubs you wrong and I agree that the goal should always be to make less mistakes, but I think the actual numbers show that leveling Vigor makes builds "better", which just means that you lose less fights/ have an easier time/ need less skill to beat the game.
I dont think "allowing so many extra hits" teach better, I was this kind of player at DS3 (my first souls game), I reached Abyss Watchers with some 15h on my first playthrough and I got stuck at Abyss Watchers until some 40h of that first playthrough, I was first heavy armor, lots off health and hidding behind a shield, and I was being beaten to the point I had not reached stage 2 in some 5h.
Then I tried heavier weapon without shield so I could try to finish it faster, I was still having getting beaten without reaching second stage once every 10 or 15 tries.
Then I got so pissed that I was getting killed over and over that I just dropped aarmor aand went 2 handing the weapon, in a mix of rage and frustration, it started working better, my dodges were not so bad and I could reach second stage 2x every 3 attempts, IO also noticed my dodge was longer and better.
I started relying on not getting hit, not trading hits and relying on dodge, more some 2 or 3 tries I beaten the boss, after that all other bosses but Soul of Cinder Gael, Friede and Midir) were 1st to 3rd try, Soul of Cinder was not much of a trouble either and I almost 1st try Friede (then I died on 3rd stage with 50% of her health, raged hard and played raging for 4h straight, next day, calm, it was a 5min fight).
From my own experience, learning earlier how to not rely on trading hits is better than relying on it, relying on "so many" extra hits makes the player lenient and develloping what I consider (for myself) a worst playstyle (that may work, but I dont consider worth even for a newcomer to a souls-like games, using myself as example on my first souls game)
But yes I am encouraging people to "not rely on so many mistakes", not to rely on "hitless runs".