Why does almost every Elden Ring late game boss have so many AOE attacks?

[Not_L_Username]

Fromsoft's older games had a great balance between Swinging, thrusting, overhead & fast and slow attacks. Bosses like Gael and Midir, O&S, Demon Prince all had AOE attacks, but they were mixed in so perfectly with the rest of their movesets that it felt really enjoyable to dodge one.

ER on the other hand has some absolutely garbage end game bosses with sloppily thrown together movesets. Godfrey and Radagon are particularly big contenders, but Radahn, Malekith, Draconic tree sentinals, Regular tree sentinals (for some reason?), Margit and probably margot (he was just a reskin so I can't remember him) all just throw AOE at you.

What's even worse about them is that the AOE attacks are almost always staggered and you have to dodge on impact not on the windup so it kills any flow for me. Placiducax was another boss, who was really awfully designed in comparison to midir. I'd criticise him more for his AOE spam but I first tried him and there's no chance I'm gonna play the game again. Same with mogh too, he just plunges his pitchfork into the ground and you have to dodge both the pitchfork and the follow up AOE (He defo has more but I first tried him and can't remember much about him)

Does anyone feel this is gets really tiring after a while? I got so sick of every boss and every phase having some large AOE attack that relied more on I framing the AOE than avoiding it or putting distance on the boss.

I do actually want to hear people's argument in favor of AOE spam so please lmk why I'm wrong.

(Yes I'm the same person for the few people that live on the ER steam forums all day and feel the need to point it out)

[Tao314zdin]

Most of player attacks are also AOE (because they hit certain space rather than a target).

Also which bosses in previous titles like DS3 did not have AOE? Crystal Sage had rather little, but nothing else comes to mind really. or?

[bozohontas]

Pretty sure it's because of the spirit summons or spirit ashes or whatever these white helpers are called. In case you didin't know: they are in the game and you are supposed to use them.... However FS's AI was always focused on 1v1, so they had to find a way to somehow balance the difficulty. Giving bosses more AOE attacks was an easy way to deal with this.

[Not_L_Username]

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

Most of player attacks are also AOE (because they hit certain space rather than a target).

Also which bosses in previous titles like DS3 did not have AOE? Crystal Sage had rather little, but nothing else comes to mind really. or?

I think most DS3 bosses had AOE but I don't have any issue with that. Most attacks that do AOE such as gaels jump attack, or some of the NK or DSA attacks are all done in healthy moderation and are well telegraphed. I have 0 issues with AOE attacks unless they are overused and start to feel spammy. Same with slow attacks, SoC had a few of them but it always felt reasonable.

My point is that AOE is fine when it's not complete spam. I'd rather a boss feel like a duel or a fight than being thrown into a washing machine.

[Not_L_Username]

Originally posted by bozohontas:

Pretty sure it's because of the spirit summons or spirit ashes or whatever these white helpers are called. In case you didin't know: they are in the game and you are supposed to use them.... However FS's AI was always focused on 1v1, so they had to find a way to somehow balance the difficulty. Giving bosses more AOE attacks was an easy way to deal with this.

Yeah ngl I didn't use any summons or magic because I enjoy melee more. That actually makes complete sense though about the summon / AI thing, though it still feels lazy to me.

[Tao314zdin]

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

Most of player attacks are also AOE (because they hit certain space rather than a target).

Also which bosses in previous titles like DS3 did not have AOE? Crystal Sage had rather little, but nothing else comes to mind really. or?

I think most DS3 bosses had AOE but I don't have any issue with that. Most attacks that do AOE such as gaels jump attack, or some of the NK or DSA attacks are all done in healthy moderation and are well telegraphed. I have 0 issues with AOE attacks unless they are overused and start to feel spammy. Same with slow attacks, SoC had a few of them but it always felt reasonable.

My point is that AOE is fine when it's not complete spam. I'd rather a boss feel like a duel or a fight than being thrown into a washing machine.

That is not what I meant.

Almost every boss melee attack that I recall is AOE, because it will hit everything in the area and not just the target or the first thing it meets.

So in that sense majority of boss attacks were always AOE. So you need to be more specific what is that you have an issue with: is the area too big this time around? in relation to what? dodge distance? or it is the angle? or lingering effects?

For example for Gael I think his only non-aoe attack was his trust in phase 1 (if I recall right it would only hit the first target that he collide with). The rest he would hit an area (although the area is not that big, but it is still an area)

[Not_L_Username]

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

I think most DS3 bosses had AOE but I don't have any issue with that. Most attacks that do AOE such as gaels jump attack, or some of the NK or DSA attacks are all done in healthy moderation and are well telegraphed. I have 0 issues with AOE attacks unless they are overused and start to feel spammy. Same with slow attacks, SoC had a few of them but it always felt reasonable.

My point is that AOE is fine when it's not complete spam. I'd rather a boss feel like a duel or a fight than being thrown into a washing machine.

That is not what I meant.

Almost every boss melee attack that I recall is AOE, because it will hit everything in the area and not just the target or the first thing it meets.

So in that sense majority of boss attacks were always AOE. So you need to be more specific what is that you have an issue with: is the area too big this time around? in relation to what? dodge distance? or it is the angle? or lingering effects?

For example for Gael I think his only non-aoe attack was his trust in phase 1 (if I recall right it would only hit the first target that he collide with). The rest he would hit an area (although the area is not that big, but it is still an area)

Yeah when I said AOE I meant when they slam the ground and the attack has a massive radius of fire, lightning, magic etc. Sometimes a boss will slam the ground, let out an AOE explosion, then pull the weapon out the ground and that will let out another explosion. Just big radius attacks that aren't regular swings.

[Tao314zdin]

Originally posted by MrFantasticCraft:

Originally posted by Tao314zdin:

That is not what I meant.

Almost every boss melee attack that I recall is AOE, because it will hit everything in the area and not just the target or the first thing it meets.

So in that sense majority of boss attacks were always AOE. So you need to be more specific what is that you have an issue with: is the area too big this time around? in relation to what? dodge distance? or it is the angle? or lingering effects?

For example for Gael I think his only non-aoe attack was his trust in phase 1 (if I recall right it would only hit the first target that he collide with). The rest he would hit an area (although the area is not that big, but it is still an area)

Yeah when I said AOE I meant when they slam the ground and the attack has a massive radius of fire, lightning, magic etc. Sometimes a boss will slam the ground, let out an AOE explosion, then pull the weapon out the ground and that will let out another explosion. Just big radius attacks that aren't regular swings.

OK, now I see.

Well I did not have much issues with those because (so far those are not lingering) why do I care if I have to dodge a swing that is primarily aimed at me or a giant AOE. The second AOE is just like second swing in the combo - mechanically just another dodge.

On the other hand if you are one of those who avoided attacks without dodging I see how it makes the difference. But hey - now you have really strong jump attacks that also allow you to dodge at the same time things like ground-AOEs.

[Humpenstilzchen]

That is the only thing I really hate about this game. The AOE spam from some bosses is just horrible like Godefroy the grafted for example. This dude does almost nothing but AOE and whirlwind attacks and I often times struggle with those because of the long windups and delays.

[Krazy Wallet]

I love Elden Ring, but I share in this frustration. The AOE attacks are more prevalent in ER compared to DS in my opinion. It may be true that most DS bosses had an AOE to use, but you also need to consider the frequency and visual queues. In fact, the lack of visuals are what really bothers me in ER.

When the Nameless King, Dragonslayer Armor, Midir, or any other boss was doing an AOE, there was a visual aid to make this very clear. NK would jump in the air all anime style, stare at you for a good 2 or 3 seconds, and then slam down, lightning flying, with a fun explosion. Midir in phase two starts drawing dark energy towards himself and shudders slightly while tensing up before the big bang. All the DS3 AOE attacks made sense visually.

Now if you look at Elden Ring, Makar lifts his sword up and slams it down like a guillotine. It's obviously a slower attack with more power. But then you just get these light airwaves that do full damage if you are within several yards of the contact point. Banished Knights and Godrick have their whirlwind attack that just starts up with very little warning - I find the banished knights harder than Godrick due to their combo.

In short, I thought it felt better when AOE had a visual aid to indicate that "this big, slow attack is gonna blow up in your face if you're within a football field of me!!!!". In Elden Ring, I found myself saying all the time, "That's an AOE???". It's not an issue once you learn what's an AOE, but it was frustrating on a first playthrough.

[Not_L_Username]

Originally posted by Krazy Wallet:

I love Elden Ring, but I share in this frustration. The AOE attacks are more prevalent in ER compared to DS in my opinion. It may be true that most DS bosses had an AOE to use, but you also need to consider the frequency and visual queues. In fact, the lack of visuals are what really bothers me in ER.

When the Nameless King, Dragonslayer Armor, Midir, or any other boss was doing an AOE, there was a visual aid to make this very clear. NK would jump in the air all anime style, stare at you for a good 2 or 3 seconds, and then slam down, lightning flying, with a fun explosion. Midir in phase two starts drawing dark energy towards himself and shudders slightly while tensing up before the big bang. All the DS3 AOE attacks made sense visually.

Now if you look at Elden Ring, Makar lifts his sword up and slams it down like a guillotine. It's obviously a slower attack with more power. But then you just get these light airwaves that do full damage if you are within several yards of the contact point. Banished Knights and Godrick have their whirlwind attack that just starts up with very little warning - I find the banished knights harder than Godrick due to their combo.

In short, I thought it felt better when AOE had a visual aid to indicate that "this big, slow attack is gonna blow up in your face if you're within a football field of me!!!!". In Elden Ring, I found myself saying all the time, "That's an AOE???". It's not an issue once you learn what's an AOE, but it was frustrating on a first playthrough.

You put it better than I did, 100% agree with all of this.

[Not_L_Username]

Originally posted by Humpenstilzchen:

That is the only thing I really hate about this game. The AOE spam from some bosses is just horrible like Godefroy the grafted for example. This dude does almost nothing but AOE and whirlwind attacks and I often times struggle with those because of the long windups and delays.

alot of people seem to dislike Godfreys AOE attack. I never got to see it sadly as I accidentally overlevelled for him, but it sounds super annoying.

[The Spirit of Jazz]

I reckon it's because FromSoft know that most boss fights will take place against multiple opponents, i.e. the player and an NPC summon or spirit ash or both. If the majority of the bosses attacks had a single target focus, summons would likely be too powerful as they would hardly take damage. It's most likely an attempt to tune bosses for both single and multiple opponents.

[MULTIPASS]

I also think that it's definitely about compensating for spirit ashes and summons in general. With ashes and summoning pools, they have to assume there are usually 2-3 adversaries for the boss and the only way to keep any shred of challenge is to have everything be aoe spam all the time - and I agree, it's a lazy way to balance encounters. Fromsoft doesn't believe in having adds in fights or mechanics with multiple roles, so the boss just has to be able to hit the entire arena with their basic moveset.

[Yílõng Má]

Skill issue.

[Not_L_Username]

Originally posted by MULTIPASS:

I also think that it's definitely about compensating for spirit ashes and summons in general. With ashes and summoning pools, they have to assume there are usually 2-3 adversaries for the boss and the only way to keep any shred of challenge is to have everything be aoe spam all the time - and I agree, it's a lazy way to balance encounters. Fromsoft doesn't believe in having adds in fights or mechanics with multiple roles, so the boss just has to be able to hit the entire arena with their basic moveset.

I've never used spirit ashes or summons b4 so I've never really thought abt it that way. Makes sense though.