Hard Swapping is dumb.

[KingJooJooMonke]

I believe hard-swapping should be restricted in favor of soft-swapping. Hard-swapping doesn't really encourage builds and it has no trade offs. Making soft-swapping more relevant allows people to use a larger variety of moves while it being more appealing to more players.

[SotiCoto]

I've literally never heard of "hard-swapping" / "soft-swapping" before...

... but if I were to guess based on context... would hard-swapping be going into the equipment menu and changing the load-out... while soft-swapping is just cycling between equipped gear?

Because if it isn't that, I have absolutely no clue what it is...


... So... now I've got past the part where I don't know what the topic is about... what exactly is the controversy?

[ressenmacher]

Цитата допису SotiCoto:

I've literally never heard of "hard-swapping" / "soft-swapping" before...

... but if I were to guess based on context... would hard-swapping be going into the equipment menu and changing the load-out... while soft-swapping is just cycling between equipped gear?

Because if it isn't that, I have absolutely no clue what it is...


... So... now I've got past the part where I don't know what the topic is about... what exactly is the controversy?

You are correct. The controversy largely surrounds the use of hardswapping as a PvP tool.

[DayLight1943]

they dont want players to hotswap like this, they want us to make meaningful choices.

when you look at the way the menus have changed from ds1 to ER, its VERY obvious that fromsoft DOES want players to have the option to hardswap.

in ds1, you could swap at any time, even during animations. by the time we get to ds3, fromsoft has added what players call "menu blackscreen", which is when the equipment menu is greyed out and you cannot access specific slots. you can see this yourself by preforming a long, slow attack, and then quickly pressing start>X or esc>E or whatever it is for you xbox controller folks. when you do this, the menu is inaccessible and you cannot hardswap.

this is a major change to hardswapping between ds1 and ds3. they saw players were swapping, and rather than eliminated it, they limited it and made an attempt to balance it by preventing players from swapping during animations like rolls, attacks, etc. in ds3 the only animations you could swap during were walking/sprinting, some gestures, climbing a ladder, falling, and hitstun.

one of the most important times to swap in ds3 was during hitstun. you could remove your weapon to parry a third hit, you could swap to a dagger to gain priority, and you could swap to quickstep to escape some true combos. apparently fromsoft did not like some or all of these things, because in ER, they added blackscreen to the hitstun animation. no more swaps during hitstun.

this blackscreen is also how they "fix" most moveset swaps. they dont actually fix the interactions between weapons when swapped, they just increase blackscreen after preforming certain actions to prevent players from getting the swap in time to moveset swap. over the course of ER's life, they have changed blackscreen duration after specific actions to patch out moveset swaps several times already. if i were able to edit blackscreen duration, i could do all the swaps from ds3 that were removed after the network test, like dagger>ugs R1 moveset swap, or weapon art swaps. these swaps are not truly fixed, its just that the duration of menu blackscreen prevents them.

so PLEASE nobody come in this thread with that "fromsoft doesnt want you to swap" or "swapping is an exploit" BS.

if fromsoft does not want players to swap, then why have they been making minor balance changes to how hardswapping works for over 10 years and across 7 different games?

in ER, all the systems to prevent swaps exist. the game knows if you are in combat and locks the crafting menu. this could have easily been applied to the equipment menu, but instead, fromsoft chose to make minor changes, like extending blackscreen after attacks/weapon arts, and adding blackscreen to hitstun. if fromsoft didnt want players to swap, why wouldnt they have used the existing mechanics that could easily prevent swaps instead of making minor, and very deliberate, balance changes to hardswapping?

To begin with, FROM not changing things, especially in regards to PvP, often speaks as much to apathy or incompetence as it does intent

i agree with this, but i dont think it really applies here. the changes i outlined above show a VERY clear intent to tweak/balance swaps while not removing them, and not just within one game, but over the course of fromsofts entire career from ds1 onwards.

2: creates a greater material barrier of entry - you now need multiple properly upgraded and AoWed weapons to participate on even footing.

you dont need to do this at all. people often fail to realize that the optimal way to approach most pvp encounters is simply to use a super meta setup and not swap at all. this also speaks to the players who think swaps are "sweaty". usually the most optimal play is just to use something super strong like dual spear or dual ss with endure and not swap at all. if you have good fundamentals and a strong setup, swapping is totally optional and not needed at all for invasions or duels.

3: extreme hardswap tech can be immersion breaking.

more immersion breaking than a player who slides around with a little quickstep dagger and then pulls a 7 foot tall, 6in thick giant sword out of their back pocket??? are you for real dude????

"it breaks immersion" is one of the worst arguments against swaps, and considering that the alternative is pulling comically giant weapons out of a tiny back pocket, it will never make sense. ever.

its not fair with their oponnents that mostly stick to their gear and build

its 100% fair, because his opponents have the opportunity to do the exact same thing. they've just chosen not to, dont know its an option yet, or have not developed the skills.

fairness means both opponents start on equal footing. if we imagine a duel between chase and a player who doesnt swap for whatever reason, then both players start on equal footing - they both have the option to swap if they want to and if they are able to. chase choosing to use his mechanical skill and game knowledge to swap isnt any more unfair than a highly skilled sports player using their own skills and innate abilities to win vs less skilled players.

chase swapping vs players who dont or cant swap is a skill gap, not unfairness. skill gaps are totally normal in sports, pvp games etc.

[la luot bang qua]

Цитата допису dragon15:

its not fair to switch to a piercing fang nagakiba in the blink of an eye and instantly kill the opponent, or switch to black flame tornado while hinding behind a corner and kill 2-3 people that arent expecting that, because he was with a slow weapon just 2 seconds earlier

It's not fair for a 3 vs 1
I think with that logic your whole point just going down, you literally just assume a 3vs1 scenario

[DayLight1943]

all of those things are totally fair, because its very easy to roll both piercing fang and BFT, as well as every single ash of war in the game, on reaction. there are no fast or unreactable ashes of war.

think about it dude! even without swaps...say someone invades you and they have a nagakiba. you dont know what WA they have. when they start up a piercing fang, youre able to identify it and react to it without prior knowledge of what ash they have on it, because all ashes of war are fairly slow and very reactable.

someone swapping to a different weapon with an unknown ash of war is no different from when they first approached you and you didnt know what ash they had. you have to react to it.

if you cant react to a swap to fang or BFT, that is a skill issue, not a fairness issue.

[DayLight1943]

"im bad at the game so its unfair when people are good at the game"

f*cking scrubs dude omg

[Tetsuya_Kurogane]

They are people that think the inventory system is un-intuitive. Then there are those that hard-swap.

I play PvP past level 306 so my stamina is above 60. With this, I can have all of my 6 armaments slots filled. I tend to rely on soft-swap, changing my setup everyday.
But occasionnaly I will hard-swap. Like switching between 2 greatsword for a contextual AoW. Or starting an Invasion with the HP up talisman, then swap for stamina up once I take a hit.

I am not lighting fast in the menu, so if I keep being pressured then I won't have time to do it. It does change the dynamic of a fight.

[ressenmacher]

Цитата допису dragon15:

Elden Ring has a thing called carry weight. you are not supposed to use whatever weapon at any time. if you equip two weapons, you need more endurance and thus lower health or damage, its a trade off.

If carry weight limits total available options, the best choice is to optimize into the strongest possible generalist setup - it is, on average, the best, and it's also the least-variance strategy. If you add a giant hammer so you can hit huge plunging attacks at the cost of a lot of armor or stats elsewhere, you might win some matches you would otherwise have lost, but that capability is so situational that on average you would win more by just ditching the hammer and going from Verteran's to Fullgoats. It creates a much flatter, less varied PvP environment because far more choices effectively mean you lose in the menu, and so people won't build into them and you'll see them much more rarely.

Maybe if the game were better balanced this aspect wouldn't be a problem - but you would still lose the dynamic nature of certain fights, particularly invasions. Fighting in Stormveil with a spear to realizing your opponent's swapped to BKG to hold stair chokepoints so you swap to Perseverance to rush or Chilling Mist to zone them back - you lose these moments where you have to react to your opponent and decide which of your options (including remaining on your current setup) is the best answer to that scenario.

[Senki]

Good luck in trying to convince fromsoft to make big improvements to this genre instead of copy pasting the same thing everytime

Worst part is they're adding things to their other IPs. Like region based matchmaking in AC6 which should've been a thing in both ER and DS3.

[Senki]

Цитата допису DayLight1943:

"im bad at the game so its unfair when people are good at the game"

f*cking scrubs dude omg

It's always so funny to me how this community never fails to disregard literally every single valid criticism with ''you're just bad''.

legit the most braindead gaming community

[SotiCoto]

Цитата допису ressenmacher:

You are correct. The controversy largely surrounds the use of hardswapping as a PvP tool.

... Why?
If someone is going into the menu to change their equipment, unless they're REALLY fluent with the process, is going to leave them vulnerable... isn't it?

[Koala 4peace]

Цитата допису SotiCoto:

Цитата допису ressenmacher:

You are correct. The controversy largely surrounds the use of hardswapping as a PvP tool.

... Why?
If someone is going into the menu to change their equipment, unless they're REALLY fluent with the process, is going to leave them vulnerable... isn't it?

You wrote it yourself. Practice to do it fast, plus only carry the equipment needed for hardswap. Honestly it sounds as fun as lighting yourself on fire, but that's how i percieved the PvP in this game the few tries i had.

Anyway, given that the game has situational music, if i recall correctly, it should not be hard to make hardswap unable during fights, but whatever.

[DayLight1943]

Цитата допису Senki:

Цитата допису DayLight1943:

"im bad at the game so its unfair when people are good at the game"

f*cking scrubs dude omg

It's always so funny to me how this community never fails to disregard literally every single valid criticism with ''you're just bad''.

legit the most braindead gaming community

dude i just posted a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ essay a few posts above the one you quoted, meaningfully addressed a ton of points in this thread, and on top of that, directly above the post you quoted is me meaningfully addressing the same comment that the comment you quoted was replying to.

[cridus]

Цитата допису dragon15:

its not fair to switch to a piercing fang nagakiba in the blink of an eye and instantly kill the opponent, or switch to black flame tornado while hinding behind a corner and kill 2-3 people that arent expecting that, because he was with a slow weapon just 2 seconds earlier

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1413459628

[KingJooJooMonke]

I'm fine with the skill cap being increased but just swapping your weapons really fast in the menu seems like a really dumb and boring way to go about it. Sure soft-swapping won't offer you as many counters to every situation but it makes you think about what your bringing.