Invaders are incredibly... boring and unimaginative.

[Tyler McRae]

I've been doing a 'taunter's tongue' run. That being a normal run of the game, but if I'm in a PvP-accessible area, I -must- have the Taunter's Tongue active at all times, no exceptions. Except, maybe, to literally talk to 1 person to do a quest. Otherwise, if I'm exploring/travelling, I have to have it active.

I thought it would be a fun way to experience PvP while still playing the game normally. And honestly? It's... boring. Incredibly.

I've been at this about a month, between work shifts, and I've managed to reach the Capital, clear almost all side quests in Limgrave, LIurnia, Ohio(Caelid) and Altus, and I'm about to enter Mt. Gelmir... And honestly? I'm extremely disappointed in the sheer lack of creativity I used to see in Fromsoft PvP.

I've seen... maybe a dozen different builds, outside of the 3 main ones: Great Lances x2 (usually involving the Serpent Killer, for rapid crouch-pokes) jump-attacking and crouch-attack spamming, Greatswords crouch-poking, or heavy rapiers for running-attack spam. Very rarely do I see anything else, anymore. And it's sad, because I'm going out of my way to use various weapons, just to play around, like putting a Greathammer and Hammer in my right hand to swap between, or a Great Curved Sword and Curved Sword, or a Halberd and Spear, etc. Just trying out all kinds of weapons and weapon arts to play with. And yet, nobody seems willing to experiment and try new things. Hell, I've even gone to try using things like the broadsword, because nobody uses them anymore. It's just... boring, now.

Does anybody else see this? Or am I just getting all the unimaginative invaders back-to-back?

[Scheneighnay]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lenox:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Scheneighnay:

The gap isn't what matters, what matters is the artificial lack in variety brought to you by the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ who would still decide something is optimal when there's nothing left to pick from but armor colors.

Take Sea of Thieves where it's all cosmetics (besides using exploits) and yet metagamers still decided there's an optimal appearance for cannons and each gun to maximize target acquisition, as well as the optimal sail appearance because it gives the most forward visibility.

Upside is you know sweatlords when you see them because they all pick the same cosmetics.

What is the % win rate difference between doing this and not doing this?

In that case the people who do that win a lot more often because they're also the ones that abuse every exploit in the game, not because of the cosmetics.

I've seen evidence and I'm confident niche builds can beat meta builds in Elden Ring, but my problem is I don't want to keep fighting meta players.

[☼Solaire Of Astora☼]

I've only ever done true PVP in DS3 on my PS4, but on there I typically used 'unique' weapons, like the dancer's enchanted swords, the farron greatsword and either the demon fists or the swordspear that the nameless king uses.

Seeing as there just isn't as unique weapons in elden ring, I've never bothered with PVP since pretty much all the weapons feel kinda generic by now, the only things that are even slightly more unique in elden ring is the magic, and even then most of the spells doesn't seem viable for PVP at first glance, unless you just spam the "meta" stuff.

I might re-enable EAC and un-install my mods and try some elden ring PVP after this post, but I highly doubt that it's going to be worth it...

[Shinkiro]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von vinhtran:

This is not a thing that exclusively applies to invaders, but to all Elden Ring PvP players in general. If you try to invade, you'll encounter the exact same phenomenon with hosts and gank squads. Imaginative and creative players aren't exclusive to either group as well, but I would say I've seen more of it from invaders to be honest - as people would tend to try out and test said stuff in invasions more, as opposed to just wait and use it as hosts. (note this mainly speaks for PvP players, and not people who are just casually going through the game)

This pretty much, its also been my experience throughout all of DS and ER. Everyone likes to moan about sweaty invaders but there's just as many if not more hosts and their phantoms doing the exact same thing. The difference is invaders are at a big disadvantage and hosts and phantoms are not, so it's substantially worse when they do it.

Whereas i've been invaded by countless cosplays through the years and there's barely ever any hosts doing that sort of thing, it's always either the innocent clueless players or the try hard casuals metagaming against invaders and rarely anything inbetween shortly after launch.

[Lenox]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Scheneighnay:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lenox:

What is the % win rate difference between doing this and not doing this?

In that case the people who do that win a lot more often because they're also the ones that abuse every exploit in the game, not because of the cosmetics.

I've seen evidence and I'm confident niche builds can beat meta builds in Elden Ring, but my problem is I don't want to keep fighting meta players.

OK. Then it sounds like an un-balanced PvP game, like Elden Ring. Of course sweatlords, as you call them, are the direct ones taking advantage. But I still put the fault on the developers. I don't know Sea of Thieves well enough though. I haven't played since release, when it was a shell of a game.

[CourtesyFlush09]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Argonaut:

People who invade use weapons that are strong for invasions. More at 11.

Well, look at that. The very first reply is the best one.

[MULTIPASS]

Guys, there is no such thing as a truly "balanced" pvp game. Even chess has a significant advantage for one of the players. It's a matter of degree.

[Lenox]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Argonaut:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lenox:

I can. But can you point out where I wrote that there is no meta?

Oh no semantics.

Please name PvP games where the success rate between the meta builds and non meta builds does not demonstrate a significant mathematical bias while taking into account the impact of extraneous factors such as individual skill or the impact of connection strength on performance.

Edit: I almost forgot since we are embracing semantics. Same genre PvP games.

Listen, you stated your argument to make it look like I wrote something that I didn't, or you wrote something that wasn't what you intended. Either way, it's not semantics and you know this.

Regarding the same genre, what action RPG PvP even exists to call upon? I can't even name any single-player games with PvP components like Elden Ring. If it exists, I haven't played it.

But my argument was not same genre, so I'm going to stick to what I was talking about. Other games do PvP balance better, and non-meta builds can hang with meta builds. Maybe at worst a 40-45% win rate unless you choose the absolute worst thing.

Some games I've played in recent memory where non-meta things can hang:
Heroes of the Storm & Dota 2
Dead by Daylight
Elder Scrolls Online
Team Fortress 2
Fortnite (I could be wrong on this one)

The Division, a single-player game with a PvP component, is an example of another game I really liked that had horrible PvP balance. Meta players could basically 1 v 10 people. But this makes sense since developers are typically not good at having two rulesets for everything. It sometimes takes companies a decade to get that right.

[Lenox]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von MULTIPASS:

Guys, there is no such thing as a truly "balanced" pvp game. Even chess has a significant advantage for one of the players. It's a matter of degree.

Correct. It's like 5-10% though, right?

[DayLight1943]

the problem with invading exclusively with "fun" weapons that are not very good in pvp is that fighting 3v1 against players who will often be using much stronger setups isnt actually fun most of the time, so invasions are not something that appeals to alot of players who might otherwise be doing that.

personally, i dont find alot of the "fun" weapons mentioned here, like hammers, axes or colossals, to be all that fun to play. the movesets are very boring and they offer very little utility. for example, all the attacks an axe can do are basic slashes - very very similar, no real specific utility for any attack, with the only real differences being slight changes to range and speed. you could say the same for hammers and greataxes. on the other hand, you could also say the same for some meta setups, like dual spear.

there are outliers in many classes that do have actual fun movesets that are usable for pvp, like the iron cleaver with its awesome R2, or the morning star with its thrusting CR1 and run R2.

but when you look at a setup like dual lance, almost every attack in its moveset is different, can be used for mixups, and most attacks have specific situations where that attack is useful and others are not. that means you have a bunch of options to chose from when deciding what attacks to use and when, and you have to make a ton of reads and split second decisions on what to use and when. its much more complex, much more engaging, and IMO, much more fun.

so for me, when i think "fun weapon", im thinking about weapons with varied movesets that offer variety and complexity. that could be something super meta like dual lance, or it could be something less meta like claymore or offberd/lance or offberd/iron cleaver.

using a weapon with an extremely simple and limited moveset that offers very little options in how to approach situations or how creative you can be with your playstyle, like axes or hammers, are not fun for me at all.

this whole discussion around "fun" weapons vs "meta" weapons often seems to imply that weapons are "fun" simply because they are suboptimal or seldom used. to me, that is a really limited and narrow view on creativity and fun that centers more around worrying about what other people are doing than actually developing skill and having fun. its kinda like; "look at this silly weapon im using!!! arent i so unique?" and thats about where the "fun" ends, because the actual combat with many of those kinds of weapons is incredibly boring and one dimensional.

[Sgt. Flaw]

The biggest problem with invasions is the fact that the invaders are suiting up for 2+ players. I get it...they want to win. So they're gunna use the most meta they can even if they're good players. I'm sure if there were more 1v1's people would take more risks and be more creative.

[Argonaut]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Lenox:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Argonaut:

Oh no semantics.

Please name PvP games where the success rate between the meta builds and non meta builds does not demonstrate a significant mathematical bias while taking into account the impact of extraneous factors such as individual skill or the impact of connection strength on performance.

Edit: I almost forgot since we are embracing semantics. Same genre PvP games.

Listen, you stated your argument to make it look like I wrote something that I didn't, or you wrote something that wasn't what you intended. Either way, it's not semantics and you know this.

Regarding the same genre, what action RPG PvP even exists to call upon? I can't even name any single-player games with PvP components like Elden Ring. If it exists, I haven't played it.

All of this is still semantics and wordplay so I'm going to glaze over it.
Also diablo 2 as an ARPG and has a PvP scene but let's not bring that up since the meta in diablo 2 is even more overbearing than in ER.

But my argument was not same genre, so I'm going to stick to what I was talking about. Other games do PvP balance better, and non-meta builds can hang with meta builds. Maybe at worst a 40-45% win rate unless you choose the absolute worst thing.

Some games I've played in recent memory where non-meta things can hang:
Heroes of the Storm & Dota 2
Dead by Daylight
Elder Scrolls Online
Team Fortress 2
Fortnite (I could be wrong on this one)

The Division, a single-player game with a PvP component, is an example of another game I really liked that had horrible PvP balance. Meta players could basically 1 v 10 people. But this makes sense since developers are typically not good at having two rulesets for everything. It sometimes takes companies a decade to get that right.

You named some games and gave no examples of what you are talking about. Unfortunately I happen to play one of those games.

The difference in winrate between meta and non meta in Dota 2 is astronomical. There are meta compositions and meta heroes and meta builds for those meta heroes within those meta compositions and the only thing that can break that discrepancy is a massive skill discrepancy. The meta in dota 2 is so strong that not building black king bar past an intermediate skill level is an instant death sentence. This is not even bringing up dedicated bans or building warp dagger/phase on heroes like shadow fiend or how shadow fiend goes from an absolute menace to completely worthless if a pudge of similar skill level goes against him in mid lane because the meta is that absolute.

The issue here is that you are ignoring another parameter which is that PvP is not balanced for 1v1 in dota and even with an overwhelming advantage you can lose because the other team is focused on objectives and yours is not. Non meta picks absolutely cannot hang with meta picks without a significant deviation in skill between the two teams. It's so bad that picking outside of meta anywhere above intermediate will get you flamed and most likely reported or banned from inhouse games for trolling.

FYI the significant deviation in skill exists in ER too.

[Lenox]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Argonaut:

Also diablo 2 as an ARPG and has a PvP scene but let's not bring that up since the meta in diablo 2 is even more overbearing than in ER.

I didn't know if you'd consider an isometric action RPG as comparable to Elden Ring, but ok. Yes, Diablo 2 PvP balance was poor. Great example of a developer doing a poor job at balancing. Glad we're in agreement. But I expect less from a 22-year old game. Still loved the game though, for the time.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Argonaut:

You named some games and gave no examples of what you are talking about. Unfortunately I happen to play one of those games.

The difference in winrate between meta and non meta in Dota 2 is astronomical. There are meta compositions and meta heroes and meta builds for those meta heroes within those meta compositions and the only thing that can break that discrepancy is a massive skill discrepancy. The meta in dota 2 is so strong that not building black king bar past an intermediate skill level is an instant death sentence. This is not even bringing up dedicated bans or building warp dagger/phase on heroes like shadow fiend or how shadow fiend goes from an absolute menace to completely worthless if a pudge of similar skill level goes against him in mid lane because the meta is that absolute.

The issue here is that you are ignoring another parameter which is that PvP is not balanced for 1v1 in dota and even with an overwhelming advantage you can lose because the other team is focused on objectives and yours is not. Non meta picks absolutely cannot hang with meta picks without a significant deviation in skill between the two teams. It's so bad that picking outside of meta anywhere above intermediate will get you flamed and most likely reported or banned from inhouse games for trolling.

FYI the significant deviation in skill exists in ER too.

Agreed @ significant deviation of skill in Elden Ring. However, I'm talking about evenly skilled humans who have chosen a non-meta (or PvE) setup vs a PvPer with a meta-PvP setup.

I can give some quick examples:

HotS - Pick almost any hero and you'll win about half the time. 40% at worst, 60% at best.

Dead by Daylight - Pick almost any killer, and almost any perk for either side, and you'll be fine. Close to 50% win rate as long as you don't pick F-tier things. Maybe 60% now with killers, but that's by design that they win a little more. It's a rare game where perhaps winning 55-60% of the time as the killer is what's viewed as "even."

Elder Scrolls Online - Do any battleground or Cyrodiil with any reasonable build and you'll be OK and relevant. Don't go in naked, use strength weapons with a dex build, etc.

TF2 - Everything seems pretty balanced. No one class gets rekt or wins consistently.

Fortnite - Might be too fresh since building was removed, but everyone seems to have a chance.

Elden Ring - Take an average PvE player and a meta PvPer, and you'd probably get a 10-20% win rate. Maybe lower?

The only other game in recent memory where I've seen something like this is in card games, like Magic: The Gathering Arena. Where if you chose a non-meta setup against a meta setup, you can lose 30-40 games in a row.

But that makes sense because it's in the company's best interest to make you pay for meta things, since the games are F2P. So in those cases, I don't think it's developer fail, it's developer survival.

Dota 2
You sound like you know your stuff in Dota 2. And admittedly, my MOBA knowledge is HoTS > League > Dota 2 > Smite

But:
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/winning
https://www.opendota.com/heroes/public
https://stratz.com/heroes/meta/trends?duration=DAY
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351237/dota2-heroes-win-rate
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1351253/dota2-heroes-win-rate-all-time

Seems like a similar story to HotS. 40-60%. As all PvP games should aspire to be.

I'm still going to invade and I'm still going to queue up with Taunter's Tongue, but I know I'm bringing a knife to a gun fight. Because FromSoftware isn't good at this or is capable and doesn't want to change it.

[GloriousZote]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Amins:

I tried doing an offensive greatshield duel-wielding build a while ago. It was terrible, but it was fun to try and make work. Even beat someone with it once.

IMO, PvP is really only worth playing to troll people with dumb builds.

I had a black bow build for a short while a few months ago.
Worked quite well, actually, especially against people who think crossbows make a good build, I'm just faster.
A lot of rollshots and jumpshots to basically fire two shots in a row.

[GloriousZote]

Oh my god, Argonaut and Lenox, get a room, or at least DM eachother, nobody cares about other games here.

[cheetah1546]

i don't think so after getting attacked with anything from scarlet rot pots to pve mobs